The Unofficial Complete REVISITED SAGA Ideas and Random Discussion Thread — Page 31

Ryan McAvoy said:

Lord Haseo said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Lord Haseo said:

The 2nd "Nooo" Luke says when Vader tells him that he is his son should be removed. The 1st "NOOOOO" was perfect, but the 2nd one sounds really awkward and every time I watch this scene it just pulls me right out of it. Tell me I'm not alone in this thought...

Did you just suggest changing the dialogue in the most perfect, the most famous, the most iconic and the most celebrated scene in the history of cinema???

Lord Haseo are you George Lucas in disguise trolling this revisted thread? ;-)

It's not perfect. Watch the scene and watch it in its entirety. Then re watch it and after Luke says his first "No" pause it and skip to 1:34. You'll see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peh2T2543ec

Naturally I already did rewatch it before commenting on your suggestion and I still say it lacks the emotion of Luke's full howl of anguish. However it seems you've got your wish anyway...

^ Click image to watch this newly leaked video clip from Disney©. Might need to watch it a couple of times to see the changes.

You should listen to the 2nd "No" once more. It's so awkward. Its emotional, but its too emotional. I feel the 1st "No" was believable while the 2nd one wasn't.

It's a scene that has worked for decades.....sure, Mark Hamill is no Oscar winner, but I get drawn into the story everytime and have no problem accepting that moment.

adywan said:

The large explosion in the clip was the original explosion they were going to use for the shield generator destruction

I thought that was not the AT-AT explosion on top of that I thought it looked cool...

Better than the pink fireworks any day. Thanks for the insight

I saw Fight Club again recently and watching it I was reminded of my Vader/Anakin split personality idea.

If Obi-Wan had a prior failed student young Anakin could build him up in his mind to a shadowy persona that could manifest as a masked fugue personality after the trauma of losing his mother.

You could even trim much of the terrible romance from AOTC and ROTS and have Anakin not remember being Padme's husband until the walls between the personalities start to fall down and she reveals the pregnancy to him.

Does anyone have any ideas as to portraying Anakin freeing his mother before the events of Episode II? Like, that would solve so many problems 

I'm not sure it would 'solve' anything.

Surely a source of much of Anakin's later anti-Jedi sentiment stems from them not doing enough to save her and seeming to forbid him from seeing her???

If Anakin freed her before Episode 2 he would be filled with self loathing rather than resentment (she would have not have been captured by the sand people if she was still Watto's slave).

It makes more sense if the Jedi bought her freedom (which is the least they could do) but prevented Anakin from hanging around her and making an attachment outside the order.

That way the Jedi don't look like total jerks but Anakin still has enough material to build a grudge with.

If you make Geonosis into Tatooine Anakin has a multiple good reasons for being there (rescuing Obi-Wan, rescuing his Mother, rescuing the slaves as in his dream). it even buys the Jedi a bit of time from Anakin's anger if they stage a planetary liberation of his homeworld. It also explains why the Jedi are too late to save his mother (the planet is an occupied territory)... heck it even explains why old timers still don't like droids in their bars come ANH.

Bingowings said:

I'm not sure it would 'solve' anything.

Surely a source of much of Anakin's later anti-Jedi sentiment stems from them not doing enough to save her and seeming to forbid him from seeing her???

If Anakin freed her before Episode 2 he would be filled with self loathing rather than resentment (she would have not have been captured by the sand people if she was still Watto's slave).

It makes more sense if the Jedi bought her freedom (which is the least they could do) but prevented Anakin from hanging around her and making an attachment outside the order.

That way the Jedi don't look like total jerks but Anakin still has enough material to build a grudge with.

If you make Geonosis into Tatooine Anakin has a multiple good reasons for being there (rescuing Obi-Wan, rescuing his Mother, rescuing the slaves as in his dream). it even buys the Jedi a bit of time from Anakin's anger if they stage a planetary liberation of his homeworld. It also explains why the Jedi are too late to save his mother (the planet is an occupied territory)... heck it even explains why old timers still don't like droids in their bars come ANH.

Yeah, I hate the Jedi idea of no attachment, so I kind of view them freeing Shmi as a huge solution. How can we root for an organization that bans the love of a mother and son? 

We shouldn't AGREE with Anakin's motives. Just understand them. Seriously, I hate the idea of these jerk Jedi Knights. Why is love, the most basic of human emotions, evil? Such a stupid concept.

Anakin's mother not being freed makes no sense so it does need to be fixed.

Whether it affects his current "fall" to the dark side (which currently plays like a conscious decision) doesn't matter to me as his fall needs to be completely reworked anyway. His journey to the dark side is meant to be a seduction of power, not him being driven there by love and loss.

Anakin doesn't need to have any pre-existing resentment towards the Jedi. In fact he definitely shouldn't as it cheapens and takes impact away from his eventual fall. It's meant to be a surprise that Anakin, the perfect Jedi and perfect friend to Obi Wan ends up turning against them. It's not so much a surprise if, actually, he had plenty to dislike about them. Remember also that Ady wants to keep Anakin=Vader a secret.

I wasn't just referring to Ady's edit though, just edits in general. Does anyone have any idea how to solve this Shmi conundrum?

MrInsaneA said:

I wasn't just referring to Ady's edit though, just edits in general. Does anyone have any idea how to solve this Shmi conundrum?

I'm also hoping that young slave Annie is completely obliterated from Revisited (seeing as Ady has stated he's majorly reworking the order and editing the prequels all at once and the final running time would also be majorly cut down) and therefore his mother won't be a slave either. The first we see of anakin is already as Obi's apprentice. Not sure how it would work but that's what I'm hoping for.

Ideally Anakin would be played by a new refilmed actor so there's no issue with lack of material , but that's possibly too ambitious a wish

I'm cool with the idea that the Jedi aren't as squeaky clean as Ben makes out to Luke (Ben has a habit of pulling Luke's chain and outright fibbing even if you forget the PT).

So for reasons of having to be part of the Republican system and not dictating to it like Palpatine's Empire I can see why the Jedi might not be able to just walk around doing whatever they please even if it's for a good cause like freeing slaves.

I can see that being a very sore point if your parent falls fowl of that sort of diplomacy and you are part of the force charged with defending the system that isn't helping her.

So it helps make Anakin more sympathetic if he has a understandable grudge which grows into something unforgivable like child murder... rather than starting with the child murder like the current PT does.

If we are to forgive Vader we have to have a degree of empathy with Anakin before he goes off the rails. It also helps us worry about Luke later if Ben doesn't seem to have learned from his prior errors (which means he can't be perfect either).

I personally would like child Anakin to stay.

I would like to see the three prequels sort of do what they are meant to be doing only succeed.

If that takes re-dubbing Jake and Hayden I'm all for it.

If I were the author of the trilogy I wouldn't have started with Anakin that age but George is the author he just isn't a good writer.

Imagine you read the back of the novelisations but hadn't a clue what the film was like. That's how I would approach the PT and ROTJ.

More of a better quality rebuild than a total redevelopment.

Bingowings said:

So it helps make Anakin more sympathetic...

...If we are to forgive Vader we have to have a degree of empathy with Anakin before he goes off the rails...

...I would like to see the three prequels sort of do what they are meant to be doing only succeed.

My problem with this is that I don't think we SHOULD have been meant to like him or feel sympathy for him. This IS what the PT attempts to do, and it DOES fail...but I think it was a misguided effort to begin with. 

Personally I think it makes more sense for us to loathe him.....maybe not right from the start....but we're supposed to grow to hate him. THEN when we get to ESB and ROTJ.....THEN the sympathy comes in....with lines like "It's too late for me, son."

Making the audience sympathetic to Vader/Anakin is something that was already done (and very well) in the OT when we start to see some fraying at the edge of Vader's "bad guy" persona....a desire peeking through, a desire to do good, and save his family.....the PT should have been more about us realizing he's a bad guy, and that he WANTS to be a bad guy. Our sympathy and empathy should be directed more towards Obi or Padme, or anyone else who gets hurt when Anakin abandons them all in favour of greater power. 

Surely we MUST feel sympathy for him (something impossible in the current PT).

That is the whole point of the story.

He is a nice kid who in terrible times takes the wrong path.

Luke is a nice kid who in terrible times takes the right path.

If he is just another evil git like Palpatine where is the character progression and why should we care if he pushes Palpatine down a well in ROTJ?

It's not a redemptive act if he was unsympathetic in the first place.

Thats why I said we should GROW to hate him. I don't mind him being more or less likeable in the first episode...though even there we should have seen hints.....my bigger problem is that George tried to make him likeable through the remaining two episodes. Our empathy towards him needs to evaporate completely through the 3 films.

Got to agree with Bingo on this point. Obi wan describes Anakin affectionately as "a good friend". I don't think we as the audience should be shown something at odds with this (actually this is the problem with the prequels as they CURRENTLY are). If we watch them in order and hate his guts, how are we going to react to Obi's line then? We need to think Anakin is a great guy THEN see him become selfish and power-hungry. 

Oh I've just seen that's what you meant too. Your previous posts kinda suggested you wanted him to be an asshole all the way through :p

Nope....there definitely DOES need to be some truth to Obi's recollections of Anakin having been a good friend......yet another reason why he shouldn't have been a 9/yo boy in episode I........ 

That's why he shouldn't just become selfish and power-hungry out of thin air.

He should become selfish because he feels he is being denied things (at first things he actually needs and we can understand).

He should become power hungry because he has periods of being powerless to prevent the sort of things we would like to prevent or to accomplish the sort of things we can understand at first.

He should start down the dark path not teleport to Darksville Darkonia.

Also if we aren't meant to know this is Vader until Episode V some of his really nasty stuff should be moved onto the Vader persona and moved away from the Anakin persona.

It would be way too obvious that Vader and Anakin are the same guy if Anakin is being all Vaderific.

I'm friends with people I've known when I was a boy.

The boy Anakin isn't the problem (the yipees aside) it's the jerk teen Anakin that's impossible to like.

The reason I feel it doesn't work changing actors/ages for Anakin is that his character essentially reboots into an entirely different one. We need to have more time with the same Anakin otherwise the turn will feel too forced and sudden. We need at least one and a half films with the same "good anakin" with the beginning of the second film planting the seeds of temptation and the bulk of the 2nd film showing the beginning of his fall to the dark side.

I just don't feel like we "know" the adult Anakin enough for there to be a convincing and gradual fall if the first film has him as essentially a completely different character and NOTHING like the person old Obi describes in ANH. No matter how much nicer you make Hayden, I will never see Jake as the same character. We've missed out on too much of his life and development to feel connected with him. He is a new character from AOTC onwards and that's why it's IMO, impossible to get a convincing and non-rushed fall without getting rid of Jake Lloyd Anakin entirely.

I think Anakin should go down Harvey Dent's route. However, i'll make the point after some differences between Star Wars and Rings.

At some point, Anakin's story is the exact opposite to Frodo's story. Lucas set up an order where anakin fell because he was too human. He wanted the jedi order to be morally more than humans, he didn't want them to commit to anybody, nor to help or show compassion, not even to marry. 

While the Jedi keep this rigid behaviour, everything develops just fine and the galaxy is in order. But then comes Anakin, who acts like a normal person, chooses his wife over his duty, and so he falls (and the republic falls) because of their forbidden love. Cleary it is wrong for him to be and act just as a common folk would.

Now take LOTR. The ultimate success in Frodo's mission comes from love under the form of pity, because he spared Gollum's life, because Faramir let Frodo go when he wasn't supposed to, etc. In a general way, we are trained (culturally trained) to identify ourselves with characters that show some human scale while heroes are determined, heroes have goals of grandeur and stay on their path. Characters we all emphatise with are the ones that are set in a path that wasn't theirs, and solve things the best they can (Han solo, anyone?)

I'd make a hero of Anakin if I were to make these movies. I wouldn't want anyone to like him but to admire him. Anakin should be incorruptible, the perfect soldier, always proceeding by the book. This blind commitment to civil duty, this inflexibility is what puts him just two steps away from being a monster. He should fall because he denies his human emotions, not because he follows them.

In the end, he falls because the institutions of the republic are rotten. this is the key: The jedi are monsters which is why Luke's Jedi Order wouldn't be just a copy of the preceeding one. You can't prevent humans from being humans, this should be the real tragedy of Anakin Skywalker.

Again: it's the Harvey Dent route, from hero to vilain in two minutes, when he realises he's let so much go and it wasn't worthy. That's the first step to messianism.

Bingowings said:

The boy Anakin isn't the problem (the yipees aside) it's the jerk teen Anakin that's impossible to like.

Again, I agree for the most part.....though I don't think we should completely like the teen Anakin. I'd definitely like to see moments between him and Obi, cementing in our minds this supposed "great friendship" they once had.....but I think we should also have moments (perhaps only between the audience and Anakin himself so as not to alienate him from the other characters in the film...just yet)) where we start to harbour doubts or misgivings about the person he is becoming.