logo Sign In

The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released) — Page 17

Author
Time
Post link
Jesus man, you keep coming through with the connections. It's incredible that got in contact with Williams' son, and that he wants to see it. Is he able to offer any help at all, as far as the workprint? And talk to Naisbitt. What do you have to lose? After you're done, it'd be interesting to take all these interviews and such, and try to write a complete story about what happened.

And just a thought, several people have offered the opinion that there should be two restorations--one with all the good animation that is available (and the more recent version of the ending), and one only using Williams animation (without the ending that was made later). It sounds like there are a lot of guys in the know that would like to this restoration, and it would probably piss them off that after all this, they still can't get a Williams-only version of the film.
Author
Time
Post link
It's hard to draw the line as far as Williams only. There's a lot of stuff which was actually inked and colored and shot by Calvert's team, which only the trained eye could tell isn't Williams. I KNOW that when Zigzag says "Their soldiers will cower behind these walls" that Calvert inked and colored it, and I could care less.


What I can do is cut out THAT fight, or make it removable via seamless branching.



If people want a Williams only cut, well, we've got a damn good workprint, and that's exactly the cut! That's Williams only ... there are only a few more shots that I can prove are all Williams which aren't in that cut.




Chris Boniface has sent me his restorations, and Erik Northfell has sent me the anonymous emule workprint! I just got them. Oh, it's a good day.

I won't start the final cut until Chris has tackled the Emule workprint though.
Author
Time
Post link
You have a good point, as far as distinguishing between Williams and Calvert material. I guess what I was thinking was being wary of material that is specifically Calvert-invented (i.e. the last fight). Personally, I want to see the fight, but for a hardcore purist, and for those that actually worked on the film with Williams...

So, how do the Boniface restorations look, compared to the source materials? And now that you have the new workprint, how are you liking it?
Author
Time
Post link
Yeah, I'm thinking of cutting the Zigzag fight and the Thief being hailed on high by the palace guards. We'll see.

Frankly there will always be a few Calvert inventions in there.




And the new workprint is the greatest thing ever. Hope that answers your question.


When Yumyum asks, "Where can my cobbler be?" I can finally see the wind-waving flowers that are the only thing animated in the scene - these were in the Camera Test Reel that Our Source donated, and I wondered what shot that was from.

All hail the Emule workprint. Can't wait for a Boniface cleanup of it.

Interestingly, it's missing a few seconds at the beginning ... not that that matters, but it is.


This great clarity gives me a few more ideas for how to do the opening shot. I could use a lot of this workprint's version since it's so nice and shows some really hypnotic motion, but I probably won't since it's mostly pencils.

Because the workprint has no true 3:2 pulldown, they seem to have "smudged" the deinterlacing slightly from one frame to the next, which is also exactly what I did with mine, except mine didn't look 1/10th this good.

Oh, wait ... I think this version was like that to begin with or something. It's remained at 25 frames per second, the PAL standard. No, they probably did deinterlace it though. Hm.

I think the fact that it's PAL explains the artifacts on the yellows. PAL loves the color yellow, doesn't it? - it can make yellows overly bright. Thought I read that somewhere.


That first pencil test shot of Tack looks great now. I'd rather like to use it.



And Patrick is right - from behind there's a mirror next to Yumyum in the bath, from the front you see MeeMee instead. Strange. Also, in the second to last shot, Meemee seems to have put on a lot of weight.

(I kind of think it's Meemee delivering the last Yumyum line - "Maybe something died.")


This transfer was done recently on professional equipment - older professional equipment though. There's a "dropout" in the Thief stealing Yumyum's shoe which is not so much a dropout as an offlock and picture roll, looking like an old-style error well handled by newer equipment.


There are a few shots early in the war machine sequence where I always thought, what the hell IS that? Because it was just garbage in my copies. It is what I thought it was - a second, very dark shot of One Eye soldiers being lifted into position. Looks nice now.


Another dropout in the Maiden from Mombassa - fixable.

Lot of pops and screwups in the sound. This'll take some work. Fixable.


The sound level drops down to nothing in the exact same place it does on every other copy of the workprint I've ever seen ...

"Yes Roofless, you stay here!"


But the sound is so clear that for the first time ever, I can actually make out Hilary Pritchard's delivery of this line. I don't know if I can use it, but I can certainly try to clean it up and use it.
Author
Time
Post link
Orangecow.org is down until the end of the month.

Sorry about the mess.
Author
Time
Post link
I take it the main reason to keep the Zig-Zag/Tack fight has to do with the completed animation of Zig-Zag falling into the hole? I'm kind of annoyed since Zig-Zag is supposed to scream when he falls, rather than stepping on a tack (Calvert's invention). At least it's sort of a good addition, even if Williams just wanted Zig-Zag to fall into the hole. Too bad Calvert couldn't stick to decent additions like this and the thief being raised up instead of adding the terrible songs.

Did you get the actual tape (or a DVD-R burn)? The AVI on emule has too much compression.

The best thing is that it lacks all the halos on the 2nd gen tape, not to mention that with a bit of color correction on the yellow tint, it looks actually better color-wise than Miramax's DVD. Also, some of the sound effects in the workprint are vastly better than in the Princess version. For example, when Phido comes back and is swatted by Zig-Zag, there's a really neat effect when his "multi-purpose cane" extends into a flyswatter (and later some prods).

Although... now that it's so clear, all the scratches, hairs, and dirt are more obvious than before. Would you be able to remove them? Even if that's too elaborate, it would be neat if you could at least paint out the few reel change cue markers (both on the workprint and the Miramax DVD).
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
Author
Time
Post link
The Emule AVI is as good as we're gonna get. The source of it is unknown.



I could ignore continuity on falling into the hole. The main reason for keeping the Zigzag/Tack fight was stubbornness and the fact that I like some of it.


Also, frankly the film needs SOMETHING to break up the Thief material at the end. The workprint's attempt to keep Tack and Yumyum in the picture was halfhearted at best. There are several places where the Thief material stops for a little break, and it's clear that the workprint wants to go to something else at that point, but there isn't much to go to.


I'll see.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: ocpmovieI could ignore continuity on falling into the hole. The main reason for keeping the Zigzag/Tack fight was stubbornness and the fact that I like some of it.

Also, frankly the film needs SOMETHING to break up the Thief material at the end. The workprint's attempt to keep Tack and Yumyum in the picture was halfhearted at best. There are several places where the Thief material stops for a little break, and it's clear that the workprint wants to go to something else at that point, but there isn't much to go to.

I'll see.


Hey, like I said, personally I would like to see the end fight scene. It sounds pretty interesting. My only concern is on a larger scale--the fact that a lot of people that worked on the original incarnation of this film are probably going to wind up seeing this restoration. It'd be nice if they could have an alternate version.

Aside from this, I want to re-emphasize how excited I am to see what you're doing with this. I know I have a tendency of nitpicking and asking a lot of questions, but that's how you know I care. I knew nothing of this film before you started restoring it, but having seen some of the footage from this film, I'm awed by it. It puts anything that Disney and Warner Bros has done to shame. I cannot fucking believe that:

1) Practically no one in the general public knows about this film.
2) It's only available in a few crappy ass DVD and VHS releases, all of which only exhibit one hack job or another (Matthew fucking Broderick and Jennifer Beals?!).
3) That with the advent of DVDs, and more recently, high-end special edition releases (Criterion, Lord of the Rings), nobody has gotten their shit together and tried to restore this thing and release it with an assload of extras and newly produced documentaries.

Right now, it looks like you're the only one who has their shit together.
Author
Time
Post link
I'm in the camp that agrees that this is purely Criterion material. If you've seen their excellent 3-disc set for Brazil... it has the entire 90-minute (note: 40 minutes shorter than Gilliam's director's cut) hack-job cut with a commentary noting all the changes. Also, Criterion is releasing a 3-disc set for Mr. Arkadin/Confidential Report (Orson Welles). Welles was taken out of the editing room, resulting in him never getting to finish the film his way. As a result, Criterion's set has the released version, a later re-cut by Corinth Films, and a new historian's comprehensive cut that is an estimate of Welles's intended cut.

They could put both Arabian Knight and The Princess and the Cobbler on one disc (72/80 minutes respectively - only 152 minutes). If a restoration happens, that would be the main star on the first disc. Another disc could have the workprint. All four versions in 2.35:1 anamorphic widescreen, too. As for extras, as seen with what has been found... there's the Thames documentary, the camera tests, maybe A Christmas Carol (who owns it), the storyboards (in still frame format), the best of RWS commercials, etc. No telling what stuff is out there in collections.

Criterion has even said they're interested in doing something animated, but nothing has really come to their attention... after all, most stuff is already being handled by studios well. They already have ties with Buena Vista (they've handled some Hollywood/Touchstone/Miramax films), they've done multiple cuts, they've included commercials (Kagemusha has Kurosawa's Suntory commercials), and even exclusive restorations (Spartacus).
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
Author
Time
Post link
Incidentally:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000015KC/102-5512478-7160162?v=glance&n=5174

The normal price for a copy of Robert Folk's Arabian Knight soundtrack, on CD, is twenty-five cents.



Ha!



Off-model Zigzag on a Canadian box of Froot Loops. I wish I had one of these boxes actually.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:kEDYOzxGVW0icM:www.toldyouso.net/images/CoverArt/1860.gif

It's like Toucan Sam has taken the place of Phido.

"Here's your breakfast, Phido dear! You can eat it up - right here!"
Author
Time
Post link
ocpmovie, what is the disc that's attached to the box?

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

Author
Time
Post link
A fullscreen DVD of the Miramax cut of The Thief and the Cobbler (Arabian Knight).


This is how the Thief was actually released on DVD, back in 2001 - on boxes of Froot Loops in Canada only. Also released the same way were Air Bud 2 and a Babar film.

(Sad, isn't it - how Disney treated this film ...)

It wasn't properly released on DVD in the US until a couple years later - the US disc is also the Miramax cut and is fullscreen.


I never looked at this release of the movie, but I've now read that the Froot Loops disc had a 5.1 sound mix on it, and I assume that the recent rerelease has one too.

This could be VERY helpful.

A major annoyance with doing this edit is that when I cut to the nicer-quality audio from the Princess version, I have to accept the music and sound effects that go along with it, and add music to my edit to match.

If I can separate out just the center track of a 5.1 mix, I might be able to just get Zigzag's lines etc in isolation, which would be marvelous.

So I'm Netflixing it right away (my most recent Netflix have been Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Aladdin and The Thief, so I guess you can tell where my head's at) ...

If it's just a 2.0 on the rerelease I'll be sad.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: ocpmovie
A fullscreen DVD of the Miramax cut of The Thief and the Cobbler (Arabian Knight).


This is how the Thief was actually released on DVD, back in 2001 - on boxes of Froot Loops in Canada only. Also released the same way were Air Bud 2 and a Babar film.

(Sad, isn't it - how Disney treated this film ...)


I think that's grounds for suicide. Thirty years, and your baby winds up glued to the side of a cereal box. I'm amazed he didn't hang himself.

As far as the audio, where'd you read that the cereal box version had 5.1 surround sound? I googled for info, but found absolutely no info to that effect. As far as the re-release, I had a terrible time with that as well, but came up with the following ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-THIEF-AND-THE-COBBLER-Vincent-Price-New-DVD_W0QQitemZ6439407489QQcategoryZ617QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It lists the audio as being "Dolby Digital Surround Sound", which would unfortunately just be a 2.0 stereo audio track. Also, what little info I found about the promo discs indicated that they were really, really shitty cut-rate discs, with absolutely no extras. I seriously doubt that they would include a 5.1 audio track on those discs. If you happened to read somewhere that the promo release had 5.1 surround, I have a hunch that the writer was mistaken, and misinterpreted "Surround Sound" as being 5.1 audio, when in fact it only indicates 2.0 audio.
Author
Time
Post link
The page has since been taken down, but thanks to Google caching, I found this review of the Froot Loops DVD.

Languages: English (Dolby 5.1), French (Dolby 5.1)

You can tell that we’re entering a new millenium when the cereal giveaway has been upgraded from some cheap plastic doo-hickey (that can’t be put together or breaks upon contact) to a bonafide flick on a DVD. Yes, this DVD, “The Thief And The Cobbler” can be found in specially marked boxes of Froot Loops (425g box, no variety packs).
I crap you negative. There’s no mistake. Canadian Alliance Atlantis and Kellogg’s have exclusively presented four different movies in four different cereals. You can find “Air Bud” in Frosted Flakes, “Air Bud: Golden Receiver” in Corn Pops, and “Babar: King Of The Elephants” in Rice Krispies. All films are presented in a standard aspect ratio of 1.33:1. This one was originally a widescreen film, is also known as “Arabian Knight”, and has Dolby Digital 5.1. Can you believe it?

~ Kyle Milligan


Clicky Clicky, this'll be gone from the cache soon!




Talking about Raggedy Ann & Andy on Myspleen:


I'd be curious what segments in this film Richard Williams actually animated.

I know that he did Raggedy Andy singing "No Girl's Toy" - which is a really great piece of animation done on ones with a moving camera, and looks out of place with the awful animation seen in a lot of this film!


On close inspection, you can actually see that some guy was manning the pan & scan machine to crush the widescreen image for the titles - it subtly crushes inward as the titles start, in a way that's done by hand. Then he dials it back out again.

It actually becomes perfectly anamorphic for the titles only. (Sigh) If only ...
Author
Time
Post link
You're right Tweaker, according to Netflix, the rerelease is a 2.0. It also has a French track. I had seen this before which is why I never rented it. I guess I was just being wishful and not thinking about that.


I wonder, though. The Froot Loops release is really noted for having a 5.1 in that review.


Hmmmmmmmmm.



The Froot Loops DVDs used to be common and cheap on Ebay, but no longer. I only see one, and that's in a big lot of other crap.


If anyone has the Froot Loops DVD, lemme know.
Author
Time
Post link
A couple people on IMDB and Amazon mention having the promo disc. Try contacting them. However, I wouldn't get my hopes up too much. That's the only mention of it having a 5.1 track anywhere on the net. Considering the following this film has among animators, that disc would be quite a prize if it had 5.1 audio. But there's no mention of it anywhere but on that one page. Oh yeah, except for one listing for a VHS copy that stated it had 5.1 surround. Heh.

It seems possible the guy didn't know what he was talking about. Sigh.

Edit:

Son of a bitch...look at what I found:
Clicky clicky

It's a cover scan of the Canadian promo release.

Look at the small text in the bottom left corner. End of the second through the third line reads:
This DVD is authorized for sale in Canada. Distributed by Alliance Atlantis & Kellogg Canada. Plus it has only the Canadian G rating logo, and it has the 2001 printing date.

And...it only has a Dolby Digital logo, with no mention of 5.1 audio. Christ, just look at the cover...it screams "cheapo". Plus it was printed by Alliance Atlantis. AA is one of the companies that, among other things, prints the cheap ass DVDs that sell in Target and Wal-Mart for a couple bucks. They do some slightly higher end stuff, but they're pretty low rent.

Plus, just think about it. At what point would a 5.1 track been mixed? Dolby 5.1 didn't come around til the early 90s, and they did a rush job to get this thing into theaters in '93, trying to minimize the losses. Would they really spent the money to utilize (what was at the time) a state of the art technology?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think that's it. No 5.1 track.
Author
Time
Post link
tweaker:
I am pretty sure that is a custom cover the of the calibre of cdcovers.cc quality - i.e. pretty damn bad. Somebody who owned the promo DVD has just made this cover so he could take the disc out of the sleeve and put it into an amaray case.

By the way, for anybody interested, here is the crappy cover for the Australian DVD "Princess and the Cobbler", the very same that ocpmovie has been utilising somewhat during this project.

Wow, I just found the poster of that piece of artwork available on eBay. It seems to be slightly different and also have the logo in the original(?) typeface. ocpmovie, is that logo worth having to scan or something?

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

Author
Time
Post link
Yeah, that's a custom cover.


And yep! That's the exact horrible cover that my copy of The Princess and the Cobbler has. =)

The original video release cover used the same art, but in a better layout, you could see the Thief and alligators better.

EDIT: Oh! Wow, yeah, that poster! That's the best version of that (horrible) artwork I've seen, and that IS Fred Calvert's real typeface. Would love to have that poster.

EDIT EDIT: The most notable thing about that poster is that it still uses the original Williams font for "Cobbler," which would be VERY handy if it could be scanned. I don't remember what font the VHS used but I don't think it was the real one.

It's kinda worth bidding on. I'll do so. I've bought dumb crap for this project before.

Also: really funny, the guy who posted this got his info from IMDB, which thanks to Ogg now lists the original voice cast. So he's posted saying that Sean Connery, Hilary Pritchard and Felix Aylmer are voices in the movie!

If only ...


EDIT EDIT EDIT: I've bid on it, but SHIT, this was a ripoff. The guy is charging 8 bucks for the poster, but 16.50 for SHIPPING. Asshole. Oh well. I spend so you don't have to.



Over at Myspleen, Ghosthost has pointed out that the pan & scan VHS version of Raggedy Ann & Andy that I have is actually slightly compressed horizontally - and should be stretched out slightly.

The opening should have a ratio of 720 x 480, the opening and closing titles stretch out to anamorphic ratio (720 x 414) and the rest of the film has a ratio of about 700 x 480. Pretty close to 4x3, but not quite.

Doing a transfer that respects this would help the film seem less cramped in pan & scan. Of course if you're doing that kind of work on the transfer you'd also convert it to 24p.


Raggedy Ann & Andy doesn't deserve this treatment really -- and I'm way too busy with The Thief to do it - my hard drive is FULL and will remain so for some time ...


But if I ever do a doc about The Thief, I'd definitely include any clips from Raggedy Ann treated thusly. Color corrected to.
Author
Time
Post link
Okay, it's fanmade. Pff. However, the cache link that OCP provided, plus other sites on the internet, also mention that the promo was released by Alliance, which as I said, prides itself on its mediocrity. (This thread from 2001 has a brief discussion about the promo release, mentions that it was a barebones release with only French and English tracks.

But again...I guess the only way to really confirm this would be to ask somebody that owns one of the promo discs.

Ugh, 5 AM. Time to sleep.
Author
Time
Post link
I should have let one of you Australian people order the poster. Shipping woulda been 8 bucks cheaper ...

Here's the Princess and the Cobbler VHS cover, which is significantly less idiotic looking than the DVD - although still idiotic (and suggesting it's an Aladdin clone).

http://geocities.com/austnorm/vidprincesscobbler.jpg
http://geocities.com/austnorm/vidprincesscobbler.jpg

At least it gets the voice cast right (Bobbi Page, Steve Lively) and includes 4 Williams images with two Calvert ones .... the DVD, written by a moron, seems to think that Matthew Broderick is in this version, and that it was overwritten by the "Completion Board" (Bond) company ....
Author
Time
Post link
Hmm... so does pointing you in the direction of both the "Princess and the Cobbler" DVD and poster 'promote' me enough so that I might receive a free copy of this DVD when it's done?

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

Author
Time
Post link
If you weren't too hasty I could have done it. I live in Australia. Wasn't expecting you to be online at the moment though. Anyway, I'm glad that I found something that might prove useful.

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: klokwerk
Hmm... so does pointing you in the direction of both the "Princess and the Cobbler" DVD and poster 'promote' me enough so that I might receive a free copy of this DVD when it's done?


You've managed to get him to spend even more money on this project. I'm sure he loves ya for it...
Author
Time
Post link
Blah.



Heh - I already have the official Princess and the Cobbler DVD - I spent good money on it much much earlier in the thread. =) Awful cover and all.


It's good to have The Princess and the Cobbler on DVD ... certainly came in handy in this edit.


And as for free DVDs - clearly I'm running myself broke doing this edit as is! =D Spending money on terrible posters of obscure edits of the film ...


Hey klokwerk, how about you watch this auction and then bid one dollar more than me when it's almost finished?

That'll save about 7 bucks.



I'll pay you back in DVD form. =D





It's weird to be talking about The Thief and Raggedy Ann at 5:32 AM. This shows what my life is right now. Heh. On a weird sleeping schedule but I'm faking that it isn't since I'm recording actresses for my animated projects ... sleepy.
Author
Time
Post link
I'll keep an eye on the auction then.

On the topic of the promo DVD, this cached page seems to be a chart of DVDs with french audio or something. The chart indicates that the French track at least was not 5.1.

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com