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The Star Wars Fan Edit Great Debate Thread.

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Fan edits.

Love them?

Hate them?

Like them to gently iron out a few problems?

Want them to shake up and radically change the films we all know so well?

Clearly there are a lot of people who have strong feelings on the subject as posts on the limits and merits of fan-edits have appeared on many threads on these boards.

Rather than spreading the subject around and risk pulling those other threads off track I thought I'd start this thread to let people shoot first (or second or at the same time)...without the need to apologise for the mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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It depends.  If I feel a film I like has flaws, and there's a fan edit that fixes those flaws, that's great.  (AI: Super-Toys Last All Summer Long is a great example).  If I hate a film, I'll be less inclined to see a fan edit of it unless it radically changes things (Matrix: Dezionied), or if it's gotten a lot of good feedback (like T3: The Coming Storm).

The thing is, I've found very few fan edits that I consider to be good enough to watch as more than just a curiosity (the two mentioned above and Ady's ANH:R are really the only ones).  Most fan edits I see have too many technical hangups - basically, if you want it to be better than the original movie, it better not have mistakes a real movie wouldn't have (hard audio cuts and badly chopped-up dialogue are the major killers here) - such flaws have often prevented me from really liking an edit I enjoyed on a conceptual level.  Dezionized has a couple such flaws, but the overall result is so good I didn't mind it as much (for that, it's mainly truncated scenes that are still necessary from a plot standpoint).

The other thing is that there are a lot of films I see that I feel could be fixed with some good fan editing, but I have yet to see such edits materialize (X-Men: The Last Stand, Spider-Man 3, The Incredible Hulk [with Ed Norton], Red Dragon ... ), or if there are such edits I don't feel that they do enough.

Basically, I like the concept, but the goal has to be a product that feels like it wasn't edited at all, like this could be the version that was seen in theaters.  Most edits have flaws in them that many people forgive because "it's a fan edit," but to me these flaws just scream "HEY! YOU'RE WATCHING A FAN EDIT, NOT THE REAL THING!"  This is why I haven't released any fan edits - none of the ones I've finished are polished enough in my opinion to release.

In other words, I don't care how much you take out or put in or rearrange or reshoot or whatever, as long as it doesn't feel like somone with too much time on their hands cut up a real movie and rearranged it - it has to feel like a real movie.

a trolling bantha

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I'd cite "Batman Forever: The Red Book Edition" as a film that takes a seriously flawed movie, and improved it greatly... although I wish the editor hadn't gone so crazy with the desaturation button.

I think "Doom: The Possessed" cut was great... well, great in the sense that it took an unwatchably bad movie and made it a fun bad movie.

One of the more creative ones I saw was 'Superman: Redeemed', which took the action from Superman 4, and mixed it with the basic plot of Superman 3. While better than either original film, it succeeded in making me realize even the good parts of those films still sucked.

Some just seem pointless. 'X-Men: Requium War' combined all three X-men films into one three hour epic. It worked plot wise, but seemed pointless somehow. The X2 parts still ruled, the X3 parts still sucked, and I still don't know what the title means.

On the otherhand "Marvel: 24" was just a hoot and a half. Balls to the wall fun, no explanation needed.

When it comes to Star Wars, I have a tough time understanding some of the edits I've heard of. One thing might be I simply don't get major love for minor villains. Boba Fett did his role, looked cool, and died a goon's death. Darth Maul and Greivous both served their purposes. I don't need to see a Robot-Tarkin at Cloud City to make me appreciate the supporting villain who died previously.

I think what Phantom Editor did was great... he edited the movie as an editor. He didn't try to re-write it... and the films benefited greatly from that.

One thing that gets me is how many changes are justified as 'truer to the spirit' or something rather than 'my opinion as a faneditor.' And usually, in Star Wars and most films, 'truer to the spirit' means darker and more violent, with no kissy parts. 

Temple of Doom? Cut the funny bits to be 'truer to the spirit.'

ROTJ? Less funny bits to be 'truer to the spirit'

The Spirit? Less funny, more punchy, to be truer to the Spirit.

Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmaron... you get the idea.

Couldn't it easily be said the ESB is not true to the 'spirit' of Star Wars, since it's darker and depressing? Yet no one edits it to be lighter in tone (an upbeat ending somehow?)

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I entirely forgot about "Superman: Redeemed" - that one is technically flawless, but has some story logic gaps that prevented me from enjoying it fully.  The same editor (was it ADM?) also did a "Superman II" cut, as did Booshman and a few others - as far as I'm concerned, if one little bit of the Booshman cut was worked into ADM's cut (the "de-powering" scene that combines elements from Donner/Lester cuts and re-color-times a couple of elements), *that* would be the perfect Superman II.  I've since lost my copy of Booshman's edit, unfortunately.

a trolling bantha

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TheBoost said:

Temple of Doom? Cut the funny bits to be 'truer to the spirit.'

ROTJ? Less funny bits to be 'truer to the spirit'

The Spirit? Less funny, more punchy, to be truer to the Spirit.

Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmaron... you get the idea.

 

 You are so fired for that one.  Pack up your desk and get out. 

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My biggest problem with the fan edits is how difficult it is to do research on them. If they're not listed in the DVD Index (and a LOT of them aren't) then the threads are difficult to find (which might have a lot to do with the search function). When you can find the thread for a particular fan edit, the specifics/details of the edit often aren't in the first post, as they logically should be.

Other than that, I don't have any problems with fan edits per se-

I can't wait for those '04 DVD/Gout hybrid OT editions. Who's doing those again? ;-)

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Asking what I think of fan edits is like asking what I think of people.

Some I love dearly. Others I want to crush with my fists. Some I want to love dearly while crushing with my fists.

Adywan's Star Wars Revisited is an example of a fan edit I hold close to my heart. MagnoliaFan's TPM is okay, though there is too much dialogue reading involved, which detracts from the visuals. I have the same gripe with subbed anime.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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TheBoost said:

I think what Phantom Editor did was great... he edited the movie as an editor. He didn't try to re-write it...

Well SOMEONE has to.  Someone has to make it right.  Lucas certainly didn't.  The Prequels could have used a few re-writes.  And now that the technology is available to us at home, what's wrong with trying to make it better?  Of course, "better" is subjective.  But what I've noticed over the years is that this board is heavy on people with opinions and light on people with any sort of real technical or artistic skill.  So what you end up with is a group of people with talent being critiqued and many times discouraged by those who really don't have much talent at all.  

Even Adywan has had to endure a lot of crap from naysayers for the decisions he's made, and he's delivered a final product far beyond anything that a fan has yet produced.

I started out as just a reader on this board, and over time took it upon my self to learn how to edit and do all this stuff so I could fix some things that had bugged me for years.  Obviously, I wasn't going to wait around for Lucasfilm or anyone else to do it.  I make my edits available to the community on the off chance that someone may have felt the same way about certain scenes and might enjoy the changes I've made for myself. 

I don't want this to sound as if I'm condemning anybody on this board, and none of this is specifically directed at you TheBoost.  There are actually quite a few members who have been incredibly gracious and incredibly helpful, who have consistently made valuable contributions to the fanediting community here without ever making an edit of their own.  People like Sluggo, Ripplin,  Ben_Danger, Vaderios and many others.  They are supportive and they're enthusiastic.

But, for the most part, the attitude here is not like that.  There are many people who are against changes of any kind.  If that's the case, then why are you participating in a fanediting discussion on a board centered around "Fan Edits, Preservation Efforts, and Other Fan Projects"?  There are others who just feel the need to crap out their negative opinion onto everyone else's head.  And then there are those who I call the "Unpleaseables", these are people who want to see changes made, but whatever you put out is never going to be good enough for them.  

Anyway, before I get off on too much of a tangent here...the point I'm making is that you can trash other people's efforts all you like, but can't truly appreciate the amount of work that goes into a fanedit without trying to make one yourself.  That's the only way you're going to see your "opinion" come to fruition.          

--ID

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I've been defending Ady lately from naysayers.

You ever notice how almost ALL "Lucasites" (who are more likely to criticize Ady's projects) have arguments that fall over at the first touch?

I have yet to see a single argument from them that cannot be easily and soundly destroyed.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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We're all masterdebaters here.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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Bingowings said:

Normally I'm against sectarianism in discussion threads but my attitude for this thread is bring it on (both sides) if only to keep it off the other threads.

 

 BingoWings, are you a mod?

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InfoDroid said:
Bingowings said:

Normally I'm against sectarianism in discussion threads but my attitude for this thread is bring it on (both sides) if only to keep it off the other threads.

 

 BingoWings, are you a mod?

I grew up in Brighton so being a Mod could have got me arrested a long time ago on a shingle beach far far away:

Mods Vs Rockers

No I'm not a moderator but I've seen so many threads pulled off track by debates between people who clearly feel strongly one way or another about the whole fan edit thing that I thought it would make sense to give people a place to speak their brains without putting people off of putting up interesting and potentially useful ideas.

We have all been on discussion boards of one kind or another and seen little sectarian block wars (my games console is the best, my computer format is the best, SE is better than OUT, PT is better than OT, this film I haven't seen yet is going to SUK...no it isn't etc,etc) and they can be kind of fun but this is a creative place with a enough room for people of many points of view to work in.

So I thought it would best to have a place where people with different takes on how far fan-edits can go and how much good they can do can let off that steam and if that makes the work of the mods easier (as long as they aren't throwing deck chairs at rockers) that great too.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Well, I was just curious because I've been frequenting this board since around '04/'05 and haven't noticed you until fairly recently.  It just seems like you try to steer almost every thread toward your personal preference or your idea of what the discussion should consist of.  Your posts are worded somewhat authoritatively and can come across as dismissive (or worse) pushy, so I just wondered if you held some sort of official position here I wasn't aware of.  That's all.

No offense.  Maybe you're just a "take charge" kind of person.

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You've pretty much described 100% of people that post on internet forums, InfoDroid.

Talk about a Barnum Statement.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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InfoDroid said:

Well, I was just curious because I've been frequenting this board since around '04/'05 and haven't noticed you until fairly recently.  It just seems like you try to steer almost every thread toward your personal preference or your idea of what the discussion should consist of.  Your posts are worded somewhat authoritatively and can come across as dismissive (or worse) pushy, so I just wondered if you held some sort of official position here I wasn't aware of.  That's all.

Nah, I'm just British and optimistic so the authorative and pushy vibes you are picking up are a mixture of my cultural upbringing and giddy quixotism.

If I do try to steer it's hopefully towards keeping people being creative and reminding people of the subject heading of whatever thread I've wandered into but thankfully there isn't one steering wheel and as you point out I've only contributed about 680ish posts so I'm hardly a senior partner here.

Hopefully in my brief time on this site I've helped a few people get some ideas or fine tinker the ones they already have. I certainly hope I've never been dismissive (if I have I'd feel justifiably ashamed of myself if it was pointed out to me in black and white, or rather white and grey).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Well, we've never needed a nanny here at OT.  As long as I've been around, (and despite the aforementioned negative tendancies I've observed) people have been pretty mature and decent to each other for the most part, compared to other boards.

The mods step in when they need to. 

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InfoDroid said:

Well, we've never needed a nanny here at OT.  As long as I've been around, (and despite the aforementioned negative tendancies I've observed) people have been been pretty mature and decent to each other for the most part, compared to other boards.

VERY true.  I was lucky enough to find this board a long time ago, one of the first online forums I actually participated in.  Since then, I've never found one that had members like this, that respect each other enough not to act like they're better than anyone else or launch personal attacks just because of a simple difference of opinion.  We actually have constructive discussions on here - I can't say the same for any other forum I know of.

There are exceptions, naturally, but thankfully such exceptions are very rare here.

a trolling bantha

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It's not my intension to be a nanny (not unless I get a dimensionally transcendental handbag and a flying umbrella), I saw what I thought was a need for a thread that wasn't there and put it there.

It's getting some use so it must be of some use (it would drop off the board if nobody used it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Oh, it's not just this thread, Bingo.  It's almost every thread.

But again, not trying to give you a hard time.  I'm sure you're sincere in your compulsion to help.  It's just that it can be a little off-putting sometimes and I want you to be aware of it.

Personally speaking, I don't need anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't be contributing to a thread unless I've violated the forum's rules somehow.  And in that case, it's a mod's responsibility to inform me of that. 

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InfoDroid said:
TheBoost said:

I think what Phantom Editor did was great... he edited the movie as an editor. He didn't try to re-write it...

Well SOMEONE has to.  Someone has to make it right.  Lucas certainly didn't.  The Prequels could have used a few re-writes.  And now that the technology is available to us at home, what's wrong with trying to make it better?  Of course, "better" is subjective.  But what I've noticed over the years is that this board is heavy on people with opinions and light on people with any sort of real technical or artistic skill.  So what you end up with is a group of people with talent being critiqued and many times discouraged by those who really don't have much talent at all.  

That's kind of my point. I think what Phantom Editor did was can be seen almost objectively as improvements to the film, from a technical film-editing standpoint. I don't know how many other fan-editors could have 4 hours of commentary track justifying each change they made without just voicing their opinions on things.

On the other hand, if someone wants to make Boba Fett a Jedi and have General Grivous beat ObiWan in a fight or whatever, and have the skills to pull it off, more power to them.  If you want to digitally paint out Mas Amada or speed up the Asteroid Field chase in ESB and add the Benny Hill music, go for it. I can like or dislike those ideas, and whoever is doing them can tell me to fuck off I suppose. It's all subjective.

I've never made a fan-edit of note. I think a website 100% populated by people who aren't billionaires from creating their own internationally beloved film franchise yet who spend their time critiquing someone who did, cannont play the 'if you can't do it, you can't talk about it' card.

I like spinning starfields, and I hope Adywan decided to leave it in his ESB:R. If I can't express that opinion, then I ask what the point of a disccussion board is? If I'm a dick about it, then I should be ignored for being a dick, not for having a different subjective opinion about a film.

And for what it's worth, I like the PT more than most on this board, yet I am very interested in seeing The Starkiller Sage, just to see what they managed to pull off with their radical ideas.

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I see little difference in what Bingowings does and what everyone else is doing. He makes suggestions, gives reasons for those suggestions, and agrees or disagrees with other's ideas in a respectful manner. It's essentially an attempt to socialize with other human beings. Plus, anyone active in this category of the forum clearly has the desire to improve the edits they are most interested in.

Then again, I guess it's the natural order of things for a veteran member to come out of the woodwork and single out a newer member for being active and prolific. It's behavior like that that starts to corrupt a forum.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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InfoDroid said:

Oh, it's not just this thread, Bingo.  It's almost every thread.

But again, not trying to give you a hard time.  I'm sure you're sincere in your compulsion to help.  It's just that it can be a little off-putting sometimes and I want you to be aware of it.

Personally speaking, I don't need anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't be contributing to a thread unless I've violated the forum's rules somehow.  And in that case, it's a mod's responsibility to inform me of that.

 

If you could give me any examples that are markedly out of place with most of the other board users I'd be glad to discuss them with you.

Surely the Moderators are a place of last resort (when something has really got out of hand and turned nasty or really obstructive or something has been posted which could get the site closed down).

There are plenty of cries of "Stay on target" (and rarely from myself as I'm just as guilty of swerving as the rest of us here) when a thread goes west (as this one is at risk of doing).

On the whole people do moderate as a team and in a friendly fashion (sometimes warning people who have put up links which might breach the rules so they can be retracted before the moderators need to get involved...that sort of thing).

This thread is about letting people discuss what lengths fan edits can go to and what good they can do.

It's not about board policing policy (there is a thread about that already) http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Fan-edit-forum-rules-and-FAQ/topic/5950/

It's designed as a place where people who cover the broad spectrum of feeling from those that feel they shouldn't exist at all to those that feel that edits should practically remake the edited film can come and debate those points of view at whatever level they hold them.

I saw what I thought was a need for such a thread when I saw those opinions being voiced on a multitude of otherwise unrelated threads.

This is not intended as an organ for me to take control of these boards or tell people what to do.

On the contrary it's to allow people to say what they want to say in a space designed specifically for that task as opposed to throwing a comment in here and there where they might get lost in a thread not specifically related to debate the contributor was commenting in.

If you feel that's a negative contribution to this site, a place I hold very dear, I'm genuinely sorry to read that.

If this thread or any post I make elsewhere breaks any of the rules of this place inform me or a moderator and one way or another it will be brought back into the rules or removed.

I was under the impression that I was getting along fine with everyone here and to be honest this discussion has rather shook me up a bit and given me much of food for thought.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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BingoWings said: "I think it's important to remind everyone about the topic title.

vaderios has effectively showed us that at the very least TPM need a colour fix but this thread is really about ideas that may radically alter the prequels.

It's a spring board for editors who want to take the existing material and really shake it up, rather than just nibble at the edges.

Already there seems to be some moves in that direction with some new edits but I don't want us to lose focus on the mission statement.

Some of the colour changes are radical (when they set a very different mood) but the case for a clean up has been made here now."

Is this really necessary?  I for one was enjoying the screenshots Vaderios was posting.  It was an inspiration to me.  So why cut it off at the head?  What was it hurting?  It was generating excitement over what was possible with mere color correction of the Prequels. 

That's just one example of many.  We also have him trying to police the board with this very thread.  But, BingoWings is not on trial here and I'm not the prosecution.  I simply wanted to bring his attention to it, because others might be offended and not speak up.  I'm not like that.

And no, not trying to "come out of the woodwork" to poison the forum here either.  That's laughable.  My reputation and history of participation here speaks for itself.