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The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy — Page 2

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OutboundFlight said:

All due respect: I’ve never understood this argument. I understand Taoist traditions, but I can’t comprehend a “good dark side user”. Love and passion aren’t equivalent to darkness, they just lead you to it if you aren’t careful.

Dare I say it, I don’t think the Jedi did anything wrong during the Clone Wars. A genius outsmarted them. Had Palpatine not been involved Anakin would have either peacefully left their order or broken off with Padme and firmly joined their cause. I just can’t see the Jedi losing the PT because they were “too good”.

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

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Yes, Dom is getting into the point of it I think.

Of course there are plenty of valid interpretations of the Force, but I think it is helpful to try to understand what the Force is meant to represent from a psychological perspective, and how that is turned into a message for a young audience.

I think a good way to look at what the dark side represents is through the lens of Jungian psychology. Here’s a video that briefly discusses the Shadow. I think to understand what the final trilogy resolves the battle between the light and the dark should consider how Jungian psychology tries to address the internal battle people have with their own dark sides.

Pop Culture Detective also has a great video on the problems of the Jedi Order in the prequels. While I think it debatable whether Lucas intended these ideas to get across or they were unintentional, I think he analyzes the issues of the Jedi really well, and I think the way the Sequel Trilogy should’ve addressed that is why they are shown as flawed in the first place. This video goes into the masculine and feminine as well, which ties into Jungian concepts of the anima and animus, and Taoism too.

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DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

All due respect: I’ve never understood this argument. I understand Taoist traditions, but I can’t comprehend a “good dark side user”. Love and passion aren’t equivalent to darkness, they just lead you to it if you aren’t careful.

Dare I say it, I don’t think the Jedi did anything wrong during the Clone Wars. A genius outsmarted them. Had Palpatine not been involved Anakin would have either peacefully left their order or broken off with Padme and firmly joined their cause. I just can’t see the Jedi losing the PT because they were “too good”.

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

Personally, I feel that the Jedi are wrong about not allowing romantic love. However, I don’t think it means they are wrong to teach their students to resist the dark side, as I don’t equate romantic love with automatically being connected to the dark side. In my opinion, one can be fully aligned with the light side of the force, and still be in a relationship with someone.

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There is a mix that makes sense and it’s somewhere between “Does it control your actions?/Partially, but it also obeys your commands”. The Force is on the one hand guiding but on the other it can be influenced, again there’s the idea of a Sith so powerful he could manipulate the midichlorians. With that in mind I’d much rather free will and its cosmic consequences be the thrust of the conflict over the Jedi being in the wrong about how they observe the force, with grey being the actual balance. Once selfishness is not considered a moral bad I think the mythos gets too muddied to follow. The Jedi are not infallible but they are in tune with the force to the extent that they can commune with Jedi from the other side and still exist in death, I think that lends some credibility.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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OutboundFlight said:

yotsuya said:

OutboundFlight said:

All due respect: I’ve never understood this argument. I understand Taoist traditions, but I can’t comprehend a “good dark side user”. Love and passion aren’t equivalent to darkness, they just lead you to it if you aren’t careful.

Dare I say it, I don’t think the Jedi did anything wrong during the Clone Wars. A genius outsmarted them. Had Palpatine not been involved Anakin would have either peacefully left their order or broken off with Padme and firmly joined their cause. I just can’t see the Jedi losing the PT because they were “too good”.

And yet there is that bit that is in several of the films where the Jedi admit they are having problems with the force. How would that be the case if they were just outsmarted. There is an imbalance. I see the imbalance (and I did before the ST) as the good force users ignoring the dark side of the force. They are taught to ignore it because it is too tempting. They are never taught how to wrestle with it and stay on the light side and maintain balance. That is why Anakin fell so easily. He was never taught how to fight the temptation of the dark side. So in the PT and OT you have the force splintered into the far light and the far dark. Jedi are supposed to be closer to the center. They should know how to tap into the dark side as needed, but not let it tempt them or consume them. The Jedi need to be in balance themselves. They have banned attachments because it could lead to the dark side rather than teach the young Jedi how to be attached and not be tempted by the dark side.

If the old EU lore holds true, the Sith started out as fallen Jedi. So the order split. And to balance the force the order needs to be whole again. Since people are not easily changed, the easiest way to do that is to wipe everything out and start over. Well, Palpatine wiped out the Jedi and the Sith tradition of only two, a master and an apprentice, left the Sith side vulnerable to defeat. We see Luke learn that final balance in ROTJ as he taps into the dark side to defeat Vader and the lets it go. Vader kills Palpatine and himself in the process leaving only Luke… until someone resurrects Palpatine (everyone confirmed that he was indeed dead at the end of ROTJ). Luke is balanced, but late Republic Jedi taught. As issues arise, the balance is not maintained. The ST we got is about perfecting that balance. So Rey is NOT Jedi trained in the Old Republic traditions, but has the original Jedi text… from the age when they were balanced. Luke noted she was not afraid of the dark side. To her it is all just the force. Revelation of her origins tests that balance, but she regains it.

It isn’t a matter of which side of the force you use, it is all in how you use it and why. The user must be balanced. The user must maintain control. Anakin was consumed by the dark side. Palpatine isn’t just consumed, he is the embodiment of the dark side. He is chaos. The Late Republic Jedi have made their order all about keeping order and following rules and avoiding the dark side at any cost. They placed good an evil onto the natural order of things when the good and evil lies in how the force is used, not the force itself. So the destruction of Palaptine does bring about the balance to the force because he is chaos and evil - the embodiment of everything bad. The first time Luke has just found that balance and all is good for a time. The second time, Rey is that balance and has destroyed even the Sith loyalists leaving no one to bring it back. The Jedi order has been reset to where it was 1000 generations before.

But I still don’t understand. What does balance mean? Rey acts just like a regular Jedi only that she thinks she’s immune to the dark side in TLJ (but that’s far from the case in TROS). Luke, Obi-Wan, and Yoda were all calm and composed Jedi.

I don’t understand how you can use the dark side for good.

Balance means you don’t take sides. The central teaching of Buddhism is the middle way. It arose separately from yin and yang, but is the same in principle. Where something has two obvious sides, you have to treat them equally. The force seems to have sides, but you have to treat them the same to achieve balance. There is nothing inherently evil about the dark side or inherently good about the light side. It is a part of nature in the Star Wars universe. The character of Bendu is a true neutral force sensitive and user. He is not Jedi or Sith. He is balance. Being a balanced Jedi means to be like him while keeping in mind the frailties of the sentient beings you teach. You need to teach them to be mindful of what can trip them up and teach them how to handle those situations. The Late Republic Jedi failed to do that. Their ways was to avoid all temptation. As we saw, that way does not work well. But the key really lies in the Bendu and the Father/Daugher/Son trio, and with the origin of the Jedi and Sith.

That balance that the ST and the PT focused on means staying neutral. Anyone who falls to the dark side is not neutral or balanced. But someone can also fall to the light side and lose their balance in that way as well. I feel that is what we saw of the Late Republic Jedi. They were too focused on rules and avoiding the dark side that they made a great many errors. Their greatest was how they treated Anakin. I think one of the points of the Saga is that you are never too old to become a Jedi and anyone can become a Jedi. And that you don’t have to give up attachments to do it. It wasn’t Anakin’s attachments that led to his fall, it was how he handled them. He was not taught to accept loss, especially not such a profound loss. And we can look at how attachments and loss affected Luke, Obi-wan, and Yoda. They were not immune. Luke ran away from everything. Obi-wan and Yoda went into hiding, waiting for something to change. A properly balanced Jedi would mourn the loss and accept it as part of nature, part of life. A deleted scene in TLJ has Luke teach this to Rey. She tries to save the nuns from destruction only to find out they weren’t and for Luke to ask her what would happen if she were not there. Birth, life, death, decomposition, and the entire circle of life are part of the Force and the focus of the Jedi. Jedi are not supposed to be emotionless machines, but should live with nature and be at one with its joys and tragedies.

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But couldn’t not taking a side produce or prolong suffering due to inaction? Wouldn’t under that definition disillusioned Luke be correct in no longer fighting? I think these philosophical questions are what the characters should be struggling with, but as the ultimate answer for me it doesn’t track, doesn’t resolve anything and I question how it even forwards the narrative. So much about Star Wars is about choosing trust and love and that being an active thing that even puts you in danger but it’s the right thing to do, balance as neutrality clashes against that for me.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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act on instinct said:

But couldn’t not taking a side produce or prolong suffering due to inaction? Wouldn’t under that definition disillusioned Luke be correct in no longer fighting? I think these philosophical questions are what the characters should be struggling with, but as the ultimate answer for me it doesn’t track, doesn’t resolve anything and I question how it even forwards the narrative. So much about Star Wars is about choosing trust and love and that being an active thing that even puts you in danger but it’s the right thing to do, balance as neutrality clashes against that for me.

It is not that a Jedi shouldn’t act, but they should carefully chose when to act. They must think rationally and not let their emotions get the better of them. They can have emotions, but must take care in how they act on them. For instance, in a war, they might elect to save one person or a small group because they can on that occasion. But they must realize that they can’t save everyone and they can’t endlessly fight someone elses battles for them. Acting in a decisive way to end a conflict or restore peace is one thing, but trying to police all of creation would be impossible. They can’t be everywhere so they must act where it will do the most good. That is really what Yoda was saying in TESB when he advised Luke not to go rescue his friends. That is what Luke was trying to teach Rey in the deleted scene. That is how Qui-gon and Obi-wan acted in TPM. Jedi don’t travel around randomly righting wrongs because there are too many to wrongs and too few Jedi. They are there to steer the course of things and maintain the balance in the galaxy. Guardians of peace and justice. They must be neutral because there is so much that they can’t do. If a Jedi happens to be around and acts to change the outcome, it is a rare thing. They are looking at the larger picture. All the OT and PT dialog confirms it.

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I think you could also argue that a force user that is trying to maintain a balance between light and dark would not stay neutral. A grey force user, to me, seems more like ANH-era Han Solo, but with a lightsaber and force powers. I can see someone like that being guided somewhat by their emotions, and not afraid to get involved in a conflict if they’re angered by some injustice.

The problem that arises for me, is that this again doesn’t seem that dissimilar from a regular Jedi, just maybe a bit more self serving. We’re told from dialogue throughout all 9 movies that once you start embracing the dark side, it corrupts you. So even if someone believes they can maintain a balance between light and dark, I feel like they will still wind up being corrupted, based on the logic within the Star Wars films. The dark side is defined as embracing anger, hatred, and lust for power. I don’t really see why someone should try to incorporate those emotions into their life if they are seeking balance. I don’t see any evidence that TLJ or TROS are advocating a “middle path.” Luke says the Jedi need to end, but then later says he was wrong.

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the dark side as simply being emotions, and that embracing the light side necessitates suppression of all emotions.

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Well, TROS and TLJ are fundamentally incompatible, so you shouldn’t take Luke’s later “I was wrong” to heart if we’re talking about how TLJ discusses a middle path.

To me, the films maintain that the dark side is rooted in selfishness. Not anger, hatred, fear, jealousy, etc. alone… Those are all just extensions of self-preservation and greed - manifestations of the extent you are passionate about what you desire. Being selfish is a natural human instinct, and I think ROTJ especially shows that it actually doesn’t corrupt you. Not any more than a child learning and pushing the limits of what they’re capable of, men earning money and status, or a politician with “power” in an authority sense.

Two examples of the Dark Side we see in the OT: Luke Skywalker wanted to save his friends so badly, he became angry, let his hate for the Empire drive his actions. Darth Vader once wanted to be more powerful than other Jedi, he let that jealousy dictate his path. But they were both able to pull back. They could make that choice, and Vader after thinking it was “too late for him.” Dark side corruption isn’t magic, you still have responsibility for yourself. It’s never too late.

Perhaps the idea that we should be thinking about, isn’t what would make a gray Jedi different, but that the examples we follow that have triumphed were essentially gray Jedi. TLJ advocates for a middle path by straight up contextualizing the Jedi teachings as having failed, twice, and that the future should grow beyond those teachings.

I imagine Lucas’s ST would have skipped the extra steps and gotten straight to that point. His PT already shows that the Jedi as idealized by Obi-Wan was far from perfect. Perhaps his Luke would have been enlightened on that front already, or the conflict would have been introduced in VII and not VIII.

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yotsuya said:

You lose some of the mystery if you explain too much. When you add in the midiclorians to the force it diminished the force. Add in the Whills as small microscopic beings and that further degrades. Portray them as some sort of spirit or ethereal being can have them act the same without ruining things. George got the magic when he did the OT. He seems to have forgotten in the PT, but what he approved from Filoni put it back again.

I understand what you’re saying. At the same time I can’t understand why keeping the Force a mystery is interesting. If it remains a mystery and never explained, then there never is a journey of understanding. This becomes a video game where you just have powers for some reason. He’s just expanding the lore, and honestly if you want the Force to remain a mystery, you can stick to the Originals. Although the Originals explain the Force very clearly: “It’s an energy field created by all Living Things”. What’s mysterious about that? It’s an energy field, not a superpower.

Adding Midi-Chlorians to the lore does not diminish the Force, particularly because the Midi-Chlorians are not a part of the Force. They explain how we can use the Force. We have microscopic beings inside our cells that communicate with the Whills, whom control the Force. Nothing here is contradictory. The Force is still this “mystical” energy field. I’m sorry you don’t see it that way, but I started this thread so we could talk about ways to implement George’s ideas, not criticize them.

yotsuya said:

And the way I see it, the force is neutral. It is neither good nor bad. It has a dark side and a light side, but neither one is evil. How you use them can be and letting the force consume you is. So it is not the force itself that corrupts, but a person’s own desires. They get drunk on the power of the dark side and let out their worst. The Jedi failing is in shunning the dark side. That is what created the imbalance in my opinion. Had they maintained the balance, the Sith could never have grown so powerful. It is what GL wrote in the PT. It is all there. Filoni, Abrams, and Johnson have only confirmed that. I got this from GL himself and how he wrote the films.

Those are interesting theories, but we’re here to talk about the way George sees the Force, not the way we see it. Our opinions aren’t what’s important here. And please stop bringing up Abrams and Johnson as they never received approval or guidance from Lucas. They’re the ones who threw his stories out because they think they understand Star Wars better than he does. “George loves his Midi-Chlorians”…the gall. Filoni btw, expands on the Force in his own show. We learn in the Clone Wars where Midi-Chlorians came from, and that there are 2 types of Force; Cosmic and Living. At least he respects George’s vision.

yotsuya said:

And yet there is that bit that is in several of the films where the Jedi admit they are having problems with the force.

Because the Dark Side was clouding their judgement. Yoda says that a lot in Episodes II and III.

yotsuya said:
So Rey is NOT a Jedi trained in the Old Republic traditions, but has the original Jedi text… from the age when they were balanced. Luke noted she was not afraid of the dark side. To her, it is all just the force. Revelation of her origins tests that balance, but she regains it.

The fact that Rey is not trained in the Old Republic traditions is irrelevant because Rey is not trained as a Jedi at all. She is a poor excuse for a more interesting character named Kira, the granddaughter of Darth Vader.

yotsuya said:
It isn’t a matter of which side of the force you use, it is all in how you use it and why. The user must be balanced.

“Learn to know the power of the Dark Side of the Force, the power to save Padmé.” The Force cannot be a matter in how you simply use it. If that was the case, than Anakin would have just learned how to save Padmé without turning to the Dark Side. He was doing it for a good reason after all. “The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.” You can only use certain powers through the Dark Side. So it does matter which side of the Force you are a part of. It mattered to Anakin.

yotsuya said:

I don’t see the force itself as good or bad. It’s dark side is not inherently bad, just susceptible to bad uses. It is the users and the orders that are good or bad.

This is really good. This is what the Whills are. This is what the audience, and Luke will learn about the Force.

yotsuya said:
The Sith are the embodiment of evil. Destroying them will not automatically bring balance to the force, but it will end their line of evil. Balance can return when the force is used in balance. What I take Lucas saying is not that the force itself (the underlying energy of the universe) has an evil aspect, but that the Sith have been using it for evil and destroying them brings balance (post order 66) by ending their abuse of the power. Luke tapped into the dark side and didn’t fall. He’s seen that balance first hand.

So with this we would suggest that the Whills might have aspects to them we would consider evil. Interesting.

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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act on instinct said:

Seeing as the Sith are also ancient and the force can be wielded by them albeit through the dark side to me points a bit closer to the direction that the Force/Whills are a vaguely neutral energy that can be taken advantage of, unless they are playing a larger game. The Force does seem to allow bad things to happen then watch and see how it plays out so I don’t see a problem really with a person who does have free will abusing the force without the whills intervening so personally, ultimately I might wonder if those beings could even conceptualize morals in that way or at that scale. The whills should have some intention but the risk of demystifying and damaging the relationship of the force to the audience is at an extreme high, I definitely understand why going microbiotic to begin with is already too much for some though I find it vindicates their inclusion in the prequels. Embrace the Midi-Chlorian…

Very interesting. So maybe the Whills don’t recognize the Dark or Light side views. This actually would fit with what George said the sequels were about long ago; learning that good and evil are similar and more vague than we thought. Maybe the Whills become tired of the Jedi and Sith taking advantage of them and are rebelling.

And I understand your valid trepidation on demystifying the Force. Just remember that we’re going to make it clear, these beings feed off and control the Force. You could say they are the Force, but they still aren’t, they just control it. And it’s okay that we get close to answering these epic questions, because this is the ending of the Saga. We’re wrapping things up for good, leaving no questions unanswered for future sequels.

act on instinct said:

This is actually a pretty hard one because the further we try to fill the gaps the more difficult questions concerning how the lore can be faithfully expanded need to be given an answer. I think harnessing a Jedi’s power after killing them also is a weak idea as well as derivations of that premise like collecting kyber crystals or anything along those lines would be too on the nose. Still, I think the closer we get to revealing beyond the veil and the inherent relationship between life and death to the spiritual realm there leaves room for interpretation as to where that energy goes and how it can be measured or perceived. As you mentioned with Luke his own misinterpretation could lead to his disillusionment, so even if the Jedi killer is failing to achieve this ultimate power through their violent means the motivation can stay the same, same as it ever was for dark siders really, misguided power seeking even if it means going through people.

The Lore won’t be expanded beyond Episode IX. The saga will be over, for good. It will be made abundantly clear.

You are right about bringing those questions up. The spirits we see are manifestations of preserved consciousness in the Force. We at least know we would encounter the spirit of Anakin, who represents the balance of the dark side and the light.

I talked with a philosopher recently about my ideas for Luke’s disillusionment, and he helped me see the flaw in my idea, so I decided to change it. I think it would be best if we stick with what the original idea for Luke’s disillusionment was: his faith shaken by the betrayal from the Jedi killer.

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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DominicCobb said:

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

I don’t know if it’s “unhealthy”. It worked for 1000 years.

Try not to misconstrue Anakin’s mistakes as a result of the Jedi way. That wasn’t the case at all. Anakin was brought up the most un-Jedi way ever. He received late training. He had attachments to his mother. He disobeyed the Jedi code and got married. And he spent the majority of his Jedi life in battle. Of course he would turn to the Dark Side. He doesn’t even know what it means to be a Jedi.

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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act on instinct said:

But couldn’t not taking a side produce or prolong suffering due to inaction? Wouldn’t under that definition disillusioned Luke be correct in no longer fighting? I think these philosophical questions are what the characters should be struggling with, but as the ultimate answer for me it doesn’t track, doesn’t resolve anything and I question how it even forwards the narrative. So much about Star Wars is about choosing trust and love and that being an active thing that even puts you in danger but it’s the right thing to do, balance as neutrality clashes against that for me.

Very wise, yes. Not taking a side is even more dangerous than taking a side. Here are some wise words from a wise man:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”

  • MLK Jr.

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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Hey everyone!

I’ve been enjoying reading all the comments so far. However, I have noticed a particular point in many comments that I feel the need to address: the Disney Trilogy being used as proof to a point.

I’m sorry everyone, but this thread was created to inspire a recreation of George’s vision for the Sequels, and in order to do that, we can only reference Episodes I-VI. A lot of people have been defining the Force off of what someone in the Disney Trilogy has said, and I admire everyone’s passion about this, but I regret to inform you that this is not the place for that declaration. The ways in which the Force are discussed in the Disney sequels are contradictory to the ways in which the Force is discussed in George’s Star Wars Saga. So please refrain the future from referencing those movies. This thread is a place for us to invent what the proper cannon should have been. Thank you!

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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ShamanWhill said:

DominicCobb said:

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

I don’t know if it’s “unhealthy”. It worked for 1000 years.

Try not to misconstrue Anakin’s mistakes as a result of the Jedi way. That wasn’t the case at all. Anakin was brought up the most un-Jedi way ever. He received late training. He had attachments to his mother. He disobeyed the Jedi code and got married. And he spent the majority of his Jedi life in battle. Of course he would turn to the Dark Side. He doesn’t even know what it means to be a Jedi.

ShamanWhill said:

Hey everyone!

I’ve been enjoying reading all the comments so far. However, I have noticed a particular point in many comments that I feel the need to address: the Disney Trilogy being used as proof to a point.

I’m sorry everyone, but this thread was created to inspire a recreation of George’s vision for the Sequels, and in order to do that, we can only reference Episodes I-VI. A lot of people have been defining the Force off of what someone in the Disney Trilogy has said, and I admire everyone’s passion about this, but I regret to inform you that this is not the place for that declaration. The ways in which the Force are discussed in the Disney sequels are contradictory to the ways in which the Force is discussed in George’s Star Wars Saga. So please refrain the future from referencing those movies. This thread is a place for us to invent what the proper cannon should have been. Thank you!

Even if it was poorly conveyed, George’s intention was to critique the Jedi way. The Jedi rip a child away from his mother, and it leads him to the dark side. That’s the fault of the Jedi. In the end, when Vader is redeemed and the Sith destroyed, it is because he loved his son. The Jedi were wrong, and Luke was right. That is the point Lucas was trying to make, and the sequel trilogy isn’t doing anything but continuing his ideas in that regard.

There is no “proper canon.” That’s bullshit. George was constantly changing his mind. He had approximately 500 different ideas for the sequel trilogy over the years that were probably incredibly contradictory (as the PT often was to the OT). This thread is just speculative fan fiction. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

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ShamanWhill said:
The ways in which the Force are discussed in the Disney sequels are contradictory to the ways in which the Force is discussed in George’s Star Wars Saga. So please refrain the future from referencing those movies. This thread is a place for us to invent what the proper cannon should have been. Thank you!

I mean, unless we’re discussing what about them that it isn’t. Like, I think, TROS is way way off, but TFA is at least vague, and TLJ is slavish in its adherence to George Lucas’s Force and Jedi. So when I bring up the Disney films I’m not actually discussing from a perspective of them as canon, but just parsing out what about them fit and what would have been done about those ideas, if at all, in the hypothetical universe where Lucas got to make his sequels.

I think context for how they’re referenced in this thread matters, if you want to police it that badly. I don’t think I’ve used them as proof of a point, just a jumping off point for the discussion on what Lucas would mean with the concept of “balance.”

We’re not in a vacuum, much less in that alternate reality where the movies didn’t happen.

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ShamanWhill said:

DominicCobb said:

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

I don’t know if it’s “unhealthy”. It worked for 1000 years.

Try not to misconstrue Anakin’s mistakes as a result of the Jedi way. That wasn’t the case at all. Anakin was brought up the most un-Jedi way ever. He received late training. He had attachments to his mother. He disobeyed the Jedi code and got married. And he spent the majority of his Jedi life in battle. Of course he would turn to the Dark Side. He doesn’t even know what it means to be a Jedi.

Anakin’s mistakes reveal holes in the Jedi way. Watching the PT it is very clear that Anakin has never been trained on how to avoid letting his emotions rule him. I see it as a failing of the Jedi. He is too old to be trained in their view because the only way they have of teaching a padawan to stay clear of the dark side are their rules. Anakin falls because the Jedi both fail to detect the Sith master and because they fail to teach him how to truly avoid the temptation of the Dark Side. Think back to the OT and what Ben and Yoda use to teach Luke… don’t be like Darth Vader. I don’t know if Lucas deliberately built in that flaw to the Jedi, but it is there and very obvious. Anakin lacks the tools he needs to avoid the dark side. They take him from his mother and never let him go back. They don’t heed his dreams of his mother at all. They don’t comfort him on her death. They are cold and distant.

One aspect that I find now when I watch the PT is the color of the saber. Those who are polarized have blue sabers. Those who are closer to the middle have green sabers. Mace is the most legalistic of them and has a purple saber. Following the colors of the rainbow, that is furthest from the red of the sith. And yellow sabers popped up before Rey had one. They are held by those even more neutral than most active Jedi. So I really think the neutral aspect of a true Jedi is built into the saga. I found Qui-gon to be an ideal Jedi. His attitudes and what he says and what he does all point to focus on the mission and that he knows far more than he shares. He has no interest in interfering. If he was there to act, he would have freed Anakin and Shmi. But he was not there to free slaves. He is on a mission and the only interest he takes in because Anakin shows force sensitivity and has those high midichlorian levels. He thinks he is the chosen one at that point and THAT dictates his actions, not Anakin’s status as a slave. He tells the Queen that he can protect her but not fight a war for her.

It is that attitude that Rian Johnson repeated with Luke and his third training session with Rey (the deleted scene). So I don’t see where the ST has done anything new. All the stuff I keep saying comes from me watching the PT and the OT repeatedly for years. I’ve mentioned Abrams, Johnson, and Filoni becaue the have used what was already in the series. Filoni has consulted with George and worked with him closely with what he did in the various animated series. Abrams consulted with him on TROS. So there is a lot of George in what I am saying. But it comes through the filter of these others. But I think it happens to agree and paint a single picture of the flaws of the Jedi in the PT. George has said a lot of things over the years. Some of it agrees, some of it is contradictory. Some of what he has said contradicts what he put in the movies. So I prefer to take what has ended up on film as a better indication of George’s intentions. Some of what he says seems to be designed to avoid bad ideas.

For instance, you cannot have a good force user who solely uses the dark side. They are not balanced and are going to succumb to the temptations. But you can have a good force user who can tap into the dark side as needed to make use of that power in the service of good. like I said I don’t think the force is inherently good or bad, just part of nature. It is how it tends to be use and how it is used. The Sith use of it is evil. How we saw it used by the good guys in the saga is not. You cannot maintain balance if you give into the temptations of the dark side.

So I don’t see the Jedi we have seen as balanced. We may see something different a few hundred years earlier, but I think the problems with the Jedi go back to the split with the Sith (provided that piece of the EU stays accurate). It would be a natural turn of events for the Jedi to start teaching complete avoidance of anything pertaining to the dark side.

So I think the pure force is far more neutral and balanced that what we see in the Jedi. The Bendu is the best example of a being that is balanced in the force. I see the father/daughter/son trio as representing the force, the Jedi, and the Sith with the father again being a being balanced in the force. I see those three as part of Lucas’s Whills concept. The balanced, the light, and the dark. I personally would watch those episodes and use them as inspiration. Lucas had many ideas that never saw the screen and they might be Filoni’s interpretation of something Lucas shared with him. I don’t think he would have gone there without consulting George about it. So I think George’s ideas are in those characters. I wouldn’t say they are Whills, but they are related to them in some way. The Bendu might be as well. The whills should be something higher like those beings. They should be less affected by human sensibilities. They should reflect balance and nature rather than human passions.

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Cthulhunicron said:

I think you could also argue that a force user that is trying to maintain a balance between light and dark would not stay neutral. A grey force user, to me, seems more like ANH-era Han Solo, but with a lightsaber and force powers. I can see someone like that being guided somewhat by their emotions, and not afraid to get involved in a conflict if they’re angered by some injustice.

The problem that arises for me, is that this again doesn’t seem that dissimilar from a regular Jedi, just maybe a bit more self serving. We’re told from dialogue throughout all 9 movies that once you start embracing the dark side, it corrupts you. So even if someone believes they can maintain a balance between light and dark, I feel like they will still wind up being corrupted, based on the logic within the Star Wars films. The dark side is defined as embracing anger, hatred, and lust for power. I don’t really see why someone should try to incorporate those emotions into their life if they are seeking balance. I don’t see any evidence that TLJ or TROS are advocating a “middle path.” Luke says the Jedi need to end, but then later says he was wrong.

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the dark side as simply being emotions, and that embracing the light side necessitates suppression of all emotions.

This is how I feel, I see the criticisms in the Jedi Order of the prequels, but not the concept of a Jedi. Yoda never renounced the title, or Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon, unless they were Jedi in name only (JINOs) and were secret greys I don’t see why Jedi has to be so limited. And again I’m not sure where grey would even take us narratively.

yotsuya said:

So I don’t see the Jedi we have seen as balanced. We may see something different a few hundred years earlier, but I think the problems with the Jedi go back to the split with the Sith (provided that piece of the EU stays accurate). It would be a natural turn of events for the Jedi to start teaching complete avoidance of anything pertaining to the dark side.

I feel like we’re getting closer, the idea that the force has further untapped potential hidden behind ancient misinterpretations would be really engaging to watch both sides try to discover the secrets. Almost Like the Sith dagger except not stupid.

ShamanWhill said:

And I understand your valid trepidation on demystifying the Force. Just remember that we’re going to make it clear, these beings feed off and control the Force. You could say they are the Force, but they still aren’t, they just control it. And it’s okay that we get close to answering these epic questions, because this is the ending of the Saga. We’re wrapping things up for good, leaving no questions unanswered for future sequels.

You have me in complete agreement there, I would say it’s impossible to leave NO questions unanswered but I’m very interested in the finality of a much more total resolution compared to the previous trilogies.

I will say there’s going to be a certain point where there just isn’t enough information for the sequels George would have made as those movies were not fully developed. I don’t think it would be absolutely wrong to take good ideas that would make sense from the trilogy and make use of every part of the buffalo here, they weren’t Lucas but they were still made by Lucasfilm and even if the details would change it’s always easier to edit from something than to write from nothing.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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act on instinct said:

You have me in complete agreement there, I would say it’s impossible to leave NO questions unanswered but I’m very interested in the finality of a much more total resolution compared to the previous trilogies.

I’m glad you agree, and I’m sure you’ll love my ideas! I’ve found a perfect way for total finality.

act on instinct said:
I will say there’s going to be a certain point where there just isn’t enough information for the sequels George would have made as those movies were not fully developed. I don’t think it would be absolutely wrong to take good ideas that would make sense from the trilogy and make use of every part of the buffalo here, they weren’t Lucas but they were still made by Lucasfilm and even if the details would change it’s always easier to edit from something than to write from nothing.

Definitely. If Disney turns out to be as greedy as they seem, they will never let us know the real stories for Episodes VII-IX. We hardly have any information to go on, but that tiny amount of info is enough to inspire us. It’s up to us to come up with an engaging and compelling storyline based off the details we know. However, it should be noted that the movies virtually were fully developed. Concept art had been drawn, the stories had been fleshed out by George, and Michael Arndt had written a script for Episode VII. They were fully formed. JJ decided not to use them.

I love your thinking. We should always seek to use every part of the Buffalo. In the past, I have used certain ideas from the Disney trilogy, just because they seemed nice. But they were few and far between. I don’t really see any value in any of the ideas beyond Episode VII. We at least know that movie was based off Michael Arndt’s script, so those things in there we can take.

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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DominicCobb said:

Even if it was poorly conveyed, George’s intention was to critique the Jedi way. The Jedi rip a child away from his mother, and it leads him to the dark side. That’s the fault of the Jedi. In the end, when Vader is redeemed and the Sith destroyed, it is because he loved his son. The Jedi were wrong, and Luke was right. That is the point Lucas was trying to make, and the sequel trilogy isn’t doing anything but continuing his ideas in that regard.

I don’t know if we can say for sure that it was in fact George’s intention to critique the Jedi. But I will say that is an interesting ideas we will consider! You are correct in pointing out that Luke only won because he didn’t listen to his Jedi masters. The idea of reforming the Jedi Order will be imbued in him.

DominicCobb said:

There is no “proper canon.” That’s bullshit. George was constantly changing his mind. He had approximately 500 different ideas for the sequel trilogy over the years that were probably incredibly contradictory (as the PT often was to the OT).

Please refrain from becoming so meta that you end up saying things that make no sense. There is a proper canon. We have an artist and his creation. Anything he wants to do or approves of is canon. Let’s not confuse ourselves.

I also prefer to see it as George coming up with ideas constantly instead of constantly changing his mind. When I think of the way the Star Wars story came about, I can admit that it did happen, but I don’t think it happened in the way you’re trying to prove.

It should be noted that he did not have 500 ideas for the Sequel Trilogy. He has like 5. He always said he had vague ideas, because he never really considered it would happen. All the ideas he did mention, do not contradict each other. There was a post earlier that links to a collection of interviews with George regarding the Sequel Trilogy. Check it out!

DominicCobb said:
This thread is just speculative fan fiction. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

Of course. I never said it wasn’t. I’m sorry you came into here thinking it was otherwise. I should’ve been more clearer. I would like to justify our “fan fiction” though: at least it’s more rooted in the creator’s ideas than Disney’s trilogy was. So which one is the real fan fiction?

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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NFBisms said:

I mean, unless we’re discussing what about them that it isn’t. Like, I think, TROS is way way off, but TFA is at least vague, and TLJ is slavish in its adherence to George Lucas’s Force and Jedi. So when I bring up the Disney films I’m not actually discussing from a perspective of them as canon, but just parsing out what about them fit and what would have been done about those ideas, if at all, in the hypothetical universe where Lucas got to make his sequels. I think context for how they’re referenced in this thread matters, if you want to police it that badly. I don’t think I’ve used them as proof of a point, just a jumping off point for the discussion on what Lucas would mean with the concept of “balance.”

Sorry for the confusion NFBisms. I was not actually thinking of you when I had made that comment earlier. I hope you don’t take offense, as I did leave those accused nameless. I don’t mean to police this thread, so much as I want us to “stay on target”.

I find your perception that TLJ is slavish in it’s adherence to George’s perception of the Force, quizzical. I personally don’t think George would approve of the ability to project oneself through the Force to another star system. The film also misunderstood George’s definition of balance in the Force.

“Who are you?”, asked Kira.

“I am the balance”, replied the ghost.

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ShamanWhill said:

DominicCobb said:
This thread is just speculative fan fiction. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

Of course. I never said it wasn’t. I’m sorry you came into here thinking it was otherwise. I should’ve been more clearer. I would like to justify our “fan fiction” though: at least it’s more rooted in the creator’s ideas than Disney’s trilogy was. So which one is the real fan fiction?

Maybe this discussion should be moved to the Script Writing and Re-writing section?

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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ShamanWhill said:

However, it should be noted that the movies virtually were fully developed. Concept art had been drawn, the stories had been fleshed out by George, and Michael Arndt had written a script for Episode VII. They were fully formed. JJ decided not to use them.

I think calling it fully developed is a bit of an overstatement. George definitely had an outline, but Michael Ardnt left the project because he needed more time to finish the actual script, which Iger wouldn’t give him. From what I understand, it was during this process that Ardnt was trying to figure out how to fit Luke into the story without overshadowing the new characters, which was when they came up with the idea of making him the thing the heroes are actually searching for.

The development process was exactly that, a development. If you’re trying to go off of what we know about George’s original treatments (and treatment are basically just summaries of a story that can fit onto a few pages, if not a single page), that’s one thing. But ideas clearly changed as development continued, and I doubt anything was really fully developed for George’s original ideas.

I really think we need to map out what exactly we know from the development process. I might do that and post it later.

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But you’re coming up with a new story, aren’t you? so I think that is a fair idea.