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The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant — Page 95

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poppasketti said:

jonh said:

I personally still think that the movie should start with this clip. And completely erase mustafar. (Which doesn’t seem to mustafar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4k12QPAh_c

Good call, jonh! Here’s a quick mockup of that idea:
TROS - Alt Opening without Mustafar
pw: fanedit

Yeah, I agree. I think of the issues the Mustafar scene has, the simple one I remember raised here is that it was unusual for a Star Wars opening to smash-cut from space to a planet surface. Usually there’s a couple establishing flybys. It’s one of the many pacing issues, and a little scene buffer could help.

Personally, I’m indifferent to Mustafar. Kewlfish, Chase Adams and others have done a good job mining options for this. I do think the battlefront footage, while fun, feels like a lot of extra outside material. If we do add 1-2 establishing shots to this scene, I think they should be simple shots that match well with the Kylo stuff.

Looks good but I don’t think the music transition here works at all, is it meant to be temp? Personally I can see the logic in either augmenting or removing the Mustafar sequence. Right now I don’t feel particularly strongly about either option.

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DominicCobb said:
But what is important is properly conveying how far flung the place is, which is lost if you start the movie with Kylo already there, and yet it takes our heroes an hour and a half to reach it.

I think our villain having an advantage over our heroes isn’t a problem that needs solving that early in the film, though. It’s not a bad thing that our bad guy has access to the bigger bad guy’s lair and the heroes don’t know where that place is. It should be harder for the heroes to find the lair. That Kylo is there at the beginning doesn’t diminish anything. His being able to get there isn’t really the problem that the story is presenting us - our HEROES being able to get there is.

It’s not much different from Vader knowing exactly where Death Star II is and the Rebellion only just getting the location at the midway point of ROTJ. The notion that it was hard for Kylo to find the place doesn’t really serve any purpose in the story, and has no real bearing on anything that happens afterwards either.

Looks good but I don’t think the music transition here works at all, is it meant to be temp?

He said it was a mockup, so I’m pretty sure it’s just a temp crossfade from one cue to the other. it’d need either different music editing, or a complete cue replacement right up until he lands.

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But the thing Poppa sent is the END of the sequence. So who cares, Rey’s scene later shows how difficult the journey through it was.

Example:
If a person filmed the first person to cross the line of a marathon and then later in the film they highlight someone else running the whole thing, or different sections of it, that doesn’t mean the first person crossing the finish line at the beginning of the film does not diminish how hard the track was for him/her.

Do NOT self-destruct!

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The only disadvantage I see to cutting Mustafar is that you just start the film and there’s Palpatine, with no build up. Would prefer to see that finding him at least took some doing on Kylo’s part. Like I know that we can infer that it happened offscreen but I think it’s better to see that effort play out onscreen.

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Octorox said:

The only disadvantage I see to cutting Mustafar is that you just start the film and there’s Palpatine, with no build up. Would prefer to see that finding him at least took some doing on Kylo’s part. Like I know that we can infer that it happened offscreen but I think it’s better to see that effort play out onscreen.

I’ve had the same thought… one of the big complaints that many people had was that Palpatine showed up too early. It’s really gonna be picking the lesser of two evils - Palpatine shows up right away and out of nowhere, or gratuitous, flashy music video fight scene that makes no sense

Clips - for Editors folder -https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mfEISVdMldOKuSNjcjYO2QSggvqI_7-Y

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 (Edited)

Octorox, yes just a quick mockup for the video side of things. Thought about leaving it silent, but realized it would look frozen without the music coming out of the crawl (it really hangs there a long time).

Edit: also agree that it removes even more of Kylo’s seeking our and finding Palpatine. Mustafar really isn’t a scene, it’s just a part of the larger build-up.

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poppasketti said:

Octorox, yes just a quick mockup for the video side of things. Thought about leaving it silent, but realized it would look frozen without the music coming out of the crawl (it really hangs there a long time).

Leaving it silent (just the sound of the ship approaching Exegol, and music only beginning at the landing) might work after the play-down from the main title.

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Octorox said:

The only disadvantage I see to cutting Mustafar is that you just start the film and there’s Palpatine, with no build up. Would prefer to see that finding him at least took some doing on Kylo’s part. Like I know that we can infer that it happened offscreen but I think it’s better to see that effort play out onscreen.

Yeah, I agree. Palpatine right at the opening scene is only marginally better than spoiling his return in the crawl. Though I’d hardly call Mustafar a full scene anyway, and the film could definitely work without it if the Wayfinder’s importance is downplayed, I really wish we can salvage that admittely cool sequence and give it more substance. Maybe re-contextualise it in another moment of the movie? Like maybe suggesting Kylo goes to Fortress Vader to rebuild his helmet?

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kewlfish said:
one of the big complaints that many people had was that Palpatine showed up too early. It’s really gonna be picking the lesser of two evils - Palpatine shows up right away and out of nowhere, or gratuitous, flashy music video fight scene that makes no sense

It’s only “too early” if the buildup was meaningful and substantial, though. The problem with Palpatine showing up is that he’s showing up at all, and that’s not a thing you can really avoid in any cut of this film. The “lesser of two evils” comparison is really the best way to frame it. If you can prolong the “wait” to see him from one minute to two, and make the Mustafar minute a little more coherent, that’s cool as hell, and the work done on that front is SUPER-impressive, especially for how fast it’s being turned out.

But I don’t think that extra minute being added to Mustafar is really addressing the “too early” complaint. Palpatine’s appearance as “reward” for the viewer’s patience and attention is an idea that doesn’t have a lot of merit to it anyway. Him showing up isn’t really a “payoff” in the dramatic sense of the term, especially not as applied in this story. It’s the setup. There’s not as much reason to prolong it in that case. What you’re really prolonging is the beginning of the story. And you need him for that story to begin. The comparison to a marathon runner upthread is a good way to frame it: Rey and friends will have to run that marathon, and the drama is in their doing so. Starting with a villain meet-up doesn’t really shortchange anything dramatically. You don’t need to see the bad-guy completing the heroes later quest first. Especially when the completion of that quest is essentially a “music video” on fast forward.

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Broom Kid said:

DominicCobb said:
But what is important is properly conveying how far flung the place is, which is lost if you start the movie with Kylo already there, and yet it takes our heroes an hour and a half to reach it.

I think our villain having an advantage over our heroes isn’t a problem that needs solving that early in the film, though. It’s not a bad thing that our bad guy has access to the bigger bad guy’s lair and the heroes don’t know where that place is. It should be harder for the heroes to find the lair. That Kylo is there at the beginning doesn’t diminish anything. His being able to get there isn’t really the problem that the story is presenting us - our HEROES being able to get there is.

It’s not much different from Vader knowing exactly where Death Star II is and the Rebellion only just getting the location at the midway point of ROTJ. The notion that it was hard for Kylo to find the place doesn’t really serve any purpose in the story, and has no real bearing on anything that happens afterwards either.

I mean yeah it’s completely different when the plot is literally about finding the planet.

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I feel like the only way to make Mustafar work, without all of the deleted scenes blah blah, is a vision. But from the way this forum has gone, there are going to be alot of visions in this edit as is… the original Kylo-Rey vision, a possible vision for finding the throne room secret chamber, I think Dom’s vision and transition to Kylo recreating his helmet…

Clips - for Editors folder -https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mfEISVdMldOKuSNjcjYO2QSggvqI_7-Y

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DominicCobb said:

I mean yeah it’s completely different when the plot is literally about finding the planet.

I don’t know if I’d describe “The Rise of Skywalker” as being “about finding a planet” anymore than I’d describe Return of the Jedi as being “about finding the Death Star II.”

The plot is about THE HEROES finding the planet. Whether the bad guy finds it in the beginning or not doesn’t functionally affect their journey at all, really, which is partially why the Mustafar Minute feels as useless as it does. It’s prolonging the beginning of the movie for the sake of making the Emperor’s appearance feel like a payoff when it’s function in the story is THE SETUP.

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Broom Kid said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean yeah it’s completely different when the plot is literally about finding the planet.

I don’t know if I’d describe “The Rise of Skywalker” as being “about finding a planet” anymore than I’d describe Return of the Jedi as being “about finding the Death Star II.”

You’ve gotten to the point where your argument doesn’t make any sense.

The plot is about THE HEROES finding the planet. Whether the bad guy finds it in the beginning or not doesn’t functionally affect their journey at all, really, which is partially why the Mustafar Minute feels as useless as it does. It’s prolonging the beginning of the movie for the sake of making the Emperor’s appearance feel like a payoff when it’s function in the story is THE SETUP.

Exegol is supposed to be a new, unknown factor for both parties. If Kylo just waltzes up at the start of the movie it raises all sorts of new confusions.

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DominicCobb said:

Exegol is supposed to be a new, unknown factor for both parties. If Kylo just waltzes up at the start of the movie it raises all sorts of new confusions.

A problem with that is that Kylo still gets there within almost the first minute of the movie either way, and Mustafar answers almost no questions at all for the audience. It tells us where Kylo’s wayfinder was before he found it, but it doesn’t tell us why he knew to look for it on Mustafar in the first place, or why he knew to look for it at all.

I think the briefest possible way to condense this is, as some other people have done before, have the title crawl refer to Kylo searching for “the source of his master’s power” or something to that effect. If we tie Exogol to Snoke implicitly, before Palpatine even gives the “I made Snoke” line, then we can infer that Kylo, as Snoke’s apprentice, had a means to reach the planet that the heroes do not, while still not being entirely certain of what awaits him there.

The fact a year has passed since TLJ, and that Kylo didn’t just go there immediately after Snoke’s death, also leaves a vague enough hint that this place isn’t easy to reach even if you know where it is.

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Neerb said:

DominicCobb said:

Exegol is supposed to be a new, unknown factor for both parties. If Kylo just waltzes up at the start of the movie it raises all sorts of new confusions.

A problem with that is that Kylo still gets there within almost the first minute of the movie either way, and Mustafar answers almost no questions at all for the audience. It tells us where Kylo’s wayfinder was before he found it, but it doesn’t tell us why he knew to look for it on Mustafar in the first place, or why he knew to look for it at all.

This is why my alternative solution is to show him traversing the nebula, making it clear he still needed to follow the Wayfinder to get there, he didn’t just know where it was the whole time.

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poppasketti said:

jonh said:

I personally still think that the movie should start with this clip. And completely erase mustafar. (Which doesn’t seem to mustafar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4k12QPAh_c

Good call, jonh! Here’s a quick mockup of that idea:
TROS - Alt Opening without Mustafar
pw: fanedit

Yeah, I agree. I think of the issues the Mustafar scene has, the simple one I remember raised here is that it was unusual for a Star Wars opening to smash-cut from space to a planet surface. Usually there’s a couple establishing flybys. It’s one of the many pacing issues, and a little scene buffer could help.

Personally, I’m indifferent to Mustafar. Kewlfish, Chase Adams and others have done a good job mining options for this. I do think the battlefront footage, while fun, feels like a lot of extra outside material. If we do add 1-2 establishing shots to this scene, I think they should be simple shots that match well with the Kylo stuff.

I love that!!!
you are a genious!!!😃

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 (Edited)

The only other way to keep Mustafar is to have the Vader (Palpatine) communion scene and have it say something that implies going to the place of Vader’s power, which of course would be Mustafar. However, now we’ve came full circle back to the point that Kylo’s face reveal at Mustafar is incredibly powerful and having another scene with his face in it would be weird if placed before that… this is starting to make my head hurt

DominicCobb said:

This is why my alternative solution is to show him traversing the nebula, making it clear he still needed to follow the Wayfinder to get there, he didn’t just know where it was the whole time.

^^^^^This, I don’t think anyone is really fighting too hard for Mustafar at this point, but what is the problem with having an extra minute of Kylo exploring the nebula?

Clips - for Editors folder -https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mfEISVdMldOKuSNjcjYO2QSggvqI_7-Y

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Whether or not Kylo finds Exegol immediately or two minutes into the movie, the fact remains that this supposedly legendary and remote world is now ‘found’ almost immediately from the start. The anticipation in TROS is deflated before it can even be built.

This film is a lot like The Last Crusade. It’s a race against time where two ancient markers lead to a remote location where a man who has cheated death tempts our heroes with incredible power…except that in the case of TROS every beat that works in The Last Crusade fails to work here.

It would be as if Donovan found the first marker (which is complete and renders the other obsolete) and fought through to the Knight who promised him eternal life if he would only bring Dr Jones to him because they are related or some shit. Then Donovan spends the rest of the film trying to find Indiana Jones as Indiana hunts down the other fully intact marker. Indy is motivated, not by archaeology or adventure, but by a revelation that the Knight killed his father. Oh yes, his dad is dead in this version. So once he finds the second marker Donovan destroys it, but Indiana uses Donovan’s marker to get to the Knight himself. Then Donovan has a change of heart and follows Indiana to the Temple, where their life force is sucked out of them by the Knight and he electrocutes a fleet of Resistance ships with his power. Then Donovan throws Indy a second whip as he crumbles into dust and these whips (and the spirits of all previous archaeologists) take down the Knight.

Basically, the introduction of ‘Rey Palpatine’ not only ruins the previous two films, it ruins the potentially quite workable Last Crusade plot structure of this one.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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kewlfish said:

this is starting to make my head hurt

Same lol. Maybe we should focus on a different part of the movie that still needs work and wait for Hal to weigh in on Mustafar.

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Love reading the discussion (getting heated, but I think in a good way?!)

So you can better perceive the mockup of the open without Mustafar, I made a (quick) pass at the audio:
TROS - Alt Opening without Mustafar
pw: fanedit

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poppasketti said:

Love reading the discussion (getting heated, but I think in a good way?!)

So you can better perceive the mockup of the open without Mustafar, I made a (quick) pass at the audio:
TROS - Alt Opening without Mustafar
pw: fanedit

I will admit, with that sound editing, that’s pretty awesome. I guess it really just would depend on how the theoretical crawl would explain the Wayfinder… one good thing is that it would take out the shots of the Wayfinder being hooked to the ship like it’s the flux capacitor from the daloreon. Maybe implying that only a force user can use a Wayfinder to find Exegol (then Rey gives the coordinates after she finds it)

Clips - for Editors folder -https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mfEISVdMldOKuSNjcjYO2QSggvqI_7-Y

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DominicCobb said:
Exegol is supposed to be a new, unknown factor for both parties. If Kylo just waltzes up at the start of the movie it raises all sorts of new confusions.

Disagree, sorry. I don’t think starting the movie with him already at Exegol is confusing, much less confusing in any “new” way that the movie itself doesn’t already have baked into its very premise.

You’re putting a lot of weight on images of him flying through space junk. Watching his ship go through all that stuff doesn’t really change anything our heroes are doing later, or highlight how much harder it is for them. The two things aren’t really connected, and the effort to connect Kylo’s difficulties finding Exegol to Rey’s later difficulties doesn’t really pay off in any version of the story. Neverar just succinctly summed up what I’m getting at:

Whether or not Kylo finds Exegol immediately or two minutes into the movie, the fact remains that this supposedly legendary and remote world is now ‘found’ in the context of this film.

Basically, what I’m saying is that Exegol being found is introduced so early on that trying to preserve any aspect of it as a dramatic payoff is rendered inert immediately. It only has utility as a setup, so it’s probably best to just make that setup as clean as possible. I’m not against Kylo flying through all that debris, or making the Mustafar Minute coherent through added VFX! But that’s a different approach than this one.

Also, I hope this isn’t coming across as “heated” at all! I’m not angry or annoyed by the conversation, and hopefully nobody else is feeling that way. Definitely not the intention, just trying to talk through the intended meanings of these scenes in the context of the film’s (and any edit’s) larger purpose, and figuring out what works, what doesn’t, and why.

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kewlfish said:

one good thing is that it would take out the shots of the Wayfinder being hooked to the ship like it’s the flux capacitor from the daloreon. Maybe implying that only a force user can use a Wayfinder to find Exegol

That’s one thing I certainly wouldn’t mind. Having read the leaks before the movie came out, it baffled me on my first viewing that the “small pyramid-shaped Sith relic that leads to an secret ancient planet of evil” wasn’t a Sith Holocron, but was instead just some little computer.