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The Rise Of Skywalker — Official Review and Opinions Thread — Page 26

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yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

So, you accept the 86% feedback on RT, which is seen as notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense, because it fits with your personal perception, but ignore the lackluster 6.9 rating on imdb, or the fact that its has the lowest cinema score of any of the films (some would argue the cinema score is the most accurate, since it is done by direct polling of the general audience), or the fact that it has the worst RT review score of any of the films (52%). Look this is not the worst movie ever, and certainly not the best, but I would say it is an accurate statement, that its reception is pretty lackluster in general, pretty poor critically, with even the majority of its proponents agreeing it is a very flawed film, and its box office, while still pretty good when compared to the average blockbuster, falls well below expectations, and can thus be classified as dissappointing. So, while I would say it is inaccurate to state a majority hated or disliked this movie, I would say it is equally inaccurate to say a majority liked it as much as you do.

From a statistical perspective, any voluntary rating system is suspect. If you really want a valid rating you’d need to do a randomized national poll. Any rating that asks people to voluntarily rate something is going to be easily skewed by a group who have a reason to give their opinion. I expect the general consensus on this site to be skewed to rating these new movies lower. I did expect to see some negative opinions from those people I know personally (and I know face to face offline) and I have not seen the negative comments from any of them. That is why I see the 86% as accurate because it is matching closer to what I’m hearing from people I know than the 52% critic score.

As for the IMDB score, I don’t now how they arrive at that number so I can’t comment. The only thing I can say is that their highest rated film is The Shawshank Redemption with 9.3 out of 10. The Star Wars films are rated as follows:
Ep 1 - 6.5
Ep 2 - 6.5
Ep 3 - 7.5
Ep 4 - 8.6
Ep 5 - 8.7
Ep 6 - 8.3
Ep 7 - 7.9
Ep 8 - 7.0
Ep 9 - 6.7
Rogue One - 7.8
Solo - 6.9
When you consider that only 4 films have a 9.0 or higher, that is a pretty tough rating system. Also, only 450 films are rated 8.0 to 8.9. That’s out of all films ever which is well over 50,000. That means those 454 films rated 8.0 or higher are less than 1% of all films. 6.7 doesn’t get TROS in the top 1000 (even TLJ isn’t at 7.0), but still, it isn’t a bad rating. But IMDB also offers the Metacritic score.
Ep 1 - 51
Ep 2 - 54
Ep 3 - 68
Ep 4 - 90
Ep 5 - 82
Ep 6 - 58
Ep 7 - 81
Ep 8 - 85
Ep 9 - 54
Rogue One - 65
Solo - 62
How many of us on OT.com would agree that ROTJ rates that low? Or TESB? These are voluntary rating systems that are at the whim of those who decide to give a rating. It is not a scientific assessment and not accurate. People on Metacritic did not like ROTJ and barely rate it higher than ATOC, TROS or TPM. and under Rogue One, Solo, ROTS TFA and TLJ. I’m sure from some opinions I’ve seen around here, that there are some who agree with that, but I don’t. I really don’t think most voluntary ratings have much to offer except to confirm our own feelings. I think the RT Audience score for TROS matches what I’ve heard. I think their audience score for TLJ is way off. I think Metacritic is way off on Eps 1, 5, 6, 9 and Rogue One. I think not having Star Wars and TESB in the top 10 on IMDB is wrong.

Yes, but here’s the problem. For every person, that has friends who generally like the film, there is another person, who has friends who generally dislike the film. So, of all the measures discussed such anecdotal evidence is the most unreliable. I will agree the general audience like the film better than the critics. However, when presented with an 86% RT audience score, which is not seen as very reliable (even you yourself doubt the TLJ RT audience score), I compare the various audience measures, and come to the conclusion, that it is a positive outlier in a positive, but overall rather mixed response.

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Well said Dr Dre. Anecdotal evidence is never gonna get us anywhere in figuring out the majority opinion on this movie. I’m not even sure if there is a majority opinion when it comes to TROS. Some people love it, some people hate it, and some people are completely indifferent towards it. It’s like the audience reception to TLJ on steroids.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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I think the fact the score floats around 50-60% on several sites would make you think that in the long run, opinions will be more split on TROS than TLJ. At least they seem to be more consistent, outside the RT audience score.

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I think whereas TLJ was polarized, TROS is mixed. Most people were very passionate about TLJ one way or the other, saying it was either (one of) the best or (one of) the worst. Reactions for TROS seem to be less extreme and closer to the middle for both the defenders and detractors. I know there are a lot of people who like the film, but they don’t seem as ardent as those who like TLJ, for instance.

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StarkillerAG said:

Well said Dr Dre. Anecdotal evidence is never gonna get us anywhere in figuring out the majority opinion on this movie. I’m not even sure if there is a majority opinion when it comes to TROS. Some people love it, some people hate it, and some people are completely indifferent towards it. It’s like the audience reception to TLJ on steroids.

I was trying to point out that all these sites with reviews have different ratings and are not consistent. They are all volunteer ratings rather than scientifically objective. There is no way to be sure of anything beyond what the films bring in at the box office. But you can account for bias at times and figure out how much some are off. One of the nice things is that IMDB actually will show you the various votes. Of the nearly 250,000 votes, 30k gave it a 10, 28k gave it a 9, 49k gave it an 8, 51k gave it a 7 and 32k gave it a 6. By far more liked it than hated it. Again not a scientific poll, but it puts the final rating in perspective. It is probably closer than the 86% audience rating on RT, but like I said before, that matches the people I know personally. I personally think RT has lost credibility and is next to useless when dealing with a franchise or any sort of organized protest. They have had a lot of questionable ratings and I don’t think they can make new and old policies both give accurate ratings on films. But the newer numbers seem to have some protection from the slew of false low ratings that several movies got a while ago. But it all creates noise that obscures being able to have a consistent number.

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I misunderstood oojason, and lost my cool. We sorted it out, but I want to apologize to him here as well, as I painted him as being unfair, unreasonable, and snarky, which he wasn’t.

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RogueLeader said:

Ironically Hello Greedo posted a video about this very topic.

I usually like HelloGreedo, but think that video is VERY biased towards pro TLJ and anti TROS. He seems to be under the impression TLJ is an objectively better movie than TROS, which I disagree with. But that’s not the point.

Hate isn’t clouding my judgement; I genuinely see TLJ as a poorly constructed movie (though admirable for its risks), and TROS as an engaging movie, even if a bit silly.

We need to recognize both sides have a small group of outspoken idiots and a majority of normal people who just have different tastes.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Anecdotally I would say that the average people who enjoy blockbusters in a broad sense didn’t like TLJ and did like TROS. In some cases they thought it was a great conclusion. That tied things up with callbacks they liked. On the other hand I can report that those of more… judgemental personalities think it was messy or bad, and others think it made the whole ST a waste of time. Although I’m only partly on board with the latter sentiment at this moment in time myself.

Yub Nub for life

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DrDre said:

I misunderstood oojason, and lost my cool. We sorted it out, but I want to apologize to him here as well, as I painted him as being unfair, and snarky, which he wasn’t.

I also apologized to him in a PM, and I want to apologize here as well. oojason is one of the best members on this website, and I didn’t mean any disrespect towards him. It was all a big misunderstanding.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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OutboundFlight said:

We need to recognize both sides have a small group of outspoken idiots and a majority of normal people who just have different tastes.

I think the majority of normal people don’t have a side at all, and aren’t really engaged in this conversation, because they honestly don’t think about it to that extent once they’re done watching it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that either. They watch the thing, they like parts of it, dislike others, and either they’re happy with their experience or they’re not. The majority of normal people just move onto the next thing at that point. They never join a side.

I understand the inclination to minimize the more unsavory aspects of online film discussion but in my experience, continually characterizing the sort of fighting, bad-faith arguing, and proxy/stand-in projection that occurs as being somehow anomalous or not representative is… inaccurate.

The “outspoken idiots” aren’t really a small group. Maybe they’re not the majority, but the margin is pretty slim, and more often than not they’re steering the ship.

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Broom Kid said:

OutboundFlight said:

We need to recognize both sides have a small group of outspoken idiots and a majority of normal people who just have different tastes.

I think the majority of normal people don’t have a side at all, and aren’t really engaged in this conversation, because they honestly don’t think about it to that extent once they’re done watching it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that either. They watch the thing, they like parts of it, dislike others, and either they’re happy with their experience or they’re not. The majority of normal people just move onto the next thing at that point. They never join a side.

For movies like this to make so much money I think that’s certain.

Yub Nub for life

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Broom Kid said:

OutboundFlight said:

We need to recognize both sides have a small group of outspoken idiots and a majority of normal people who just have different tastes.

I think the majority of normal people don’t have a side at all, and aren’t really engaged in this conversation, because they honestly don’t think about it to that extent once they’re done watching it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that either. They watch the thing, they like parts of it, dislike others, and either they’re happy with their experience or they’re not. The majority of normal people just move onto the next thing at that point. They never join a side.

I understand the inclination to minimize the more unsavory aspects of online film discussion but in my experience, continually characterizing the sort of fighting, bad-faith arguing, and proxy/stand-in projection that occurs as being somehow anomalous or not representative is… inaccurate.

The “outspoken idiots” aren’t really a small group. Maybe they’re not the majority, but the margin is pretty slim, and more often than not they’re steering the ship.

I disagree. Most people see a movie and then either had a good time or a bad time. Yes, they’ll probably stop thinking about it once they get to their cars unless they really liked it, but they still had an opinion. You don’t have to argue online to have an opinion about something. Most won’t bring it up unless it gets brought up, then they might say their small opinion and move on without thinking about it again. That’s “a side”, even if not a passionate opinion.

It’s just the people who get really angry over trivial things such as this are more likely to rage about it online (keep in mind, I’m not addressing that towards anyone here, but the folks involved in those clickbait YT or saltier than crait).

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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OutboundFlight said:

Broom Kid said:

OutboundFlight said:

We need to recognize both sides have a small group of outspoken idiots and a majority of normal people who just have different tastes.

I think the majority of normal people don’t have a side at all, and aren’t really engaged in this conversation, because they honestly don’t think about it to that extent once they’re done watching it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that either. They watch the thing, they like parts of it, dislike others, and either they’re happy with their experience or they’re not. The majority of normal people just move onto the next thing at that point. They never join a side.

I understand the inclination to minimize the more unsavory aspects of online film discussion but in my experience, continually characterizing the sort of fighting, bad-faith arguing, and proxy/stand-in projection that occurs as being somehow anomalous or not representative is… inaccurate.

The “outspoken idiots” aren’t really a small group. Maybe they’re not the majority, but the margin is pretty slim, and more often than not they’re steering the ship.

I disagree. Most people see a movie and then either had a good time or a bad time. Yes, they’ll probably stop thinking about it once they get to their cars unless they really liked it, but they still had an opinion. You don’t have to argue online to have an opinion about something. Most won’t bring it up unless it gets brought up, then they might say their small opinion and move on without thinking about it again. That’s “a side”, even if not a passionate opinion.

It’s just the people who get really angry over trivial things such as this are more likely to rage about it online (keep in mind, I’m not addressing that towards anyone here, but the folks involved in those clickbait YT or saltier than crait).

100% agreed. It’s okay to have opinions on movies, but raging about them endlessly online is never healthy.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Broom Kid said:

I think the majority of normal people don’t have a side at all, and aren’t really engaged in this conversation, because they honestly don’t think about it to that extent once they’re done watching it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that either. They watch the thing, they like parts of it, dislike others, and either they’re happy with their experience or they’re not. The majority of normal people just move onto the next thing at that point. They never join a side.

OutboundFlight said:

I disagree. Most people see a movie and then either had a good time or a bad time. Yes, they’ll probably stop thinking about it once they get to their cars unless they really liked it, but they still had an opinion. You don’t have to argue online to have an opinion about something.

I’m confused with what you’re disagreeing with, then. I never said they didn’t have an opinion. I specifically said they’re going to form opinions as they watch it, and then… not care enough about sharing those opinions with strangers on the internet to be part of the conversation. They’re not picking a side. That’s most people.

Most people having the conversation on the internet though, aren’t the majority of people who watched the movie. And of the people who ARE making sure to turn their feelings on the movie into long, extended conversations (or even content, which then spurs its own content-focused conversations nested within) the idea that argumentative loudmouths are a small minority doesn’t hold weight, in my experience. Maybe they’re not the majority, but it’s a lot closer to 50/50, and again, more often than not the loudmouth brigade being the “minority” doesn’t matter because they’re the ones steering the conversation anyway.

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RogueLeader said:

New leaked concept images for The Duel of the Fates.

Knowing about Trevarrow’s film is like adding salt on the wound made by TROS. Visually it’s everything I wanted and more, that ending shot on the green planet is the perfect setting to end Rey’s arch considering where she came from.
Instead JJ puts her back on a desert planet (alone) in the most anticlimactic way possible.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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Speaking of the ending, note these two pieces that are supposedly from the end of the film.

I don’t know if these images are the artist’s idea or interpreted from how Colin described it in the script, but this was clearly meant to mirror the opening of The Force Awakens when the camera is on an extreme close up of BB-8’s eye. That would’ve been a nice way to bookend the trilogy.

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You can even see broom boy and some fathiers in the background which would have made the canto bight scene in TLJ more purposeful in retrospect.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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There are so many things about this art and the story that goes with it that I don’t like. It is missing the epicness of the rest of the saga.

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yotsuya said:

There are so many things about this art and the story that goes with it that I don’t like. It is missing the epicness of the rest of the saga.

I actually had the opposite feeling. I prefer character focused, dramatic stories over a thousand Death Stars vs ten thousand spaceships. Bigger isn’t always better, and I feel like Trevorrow’s version of IX would have been much more emotionally satisfying than the oversized, bloated finale we got.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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I’m kinda confused, because the art makes it looks like the film would have indeed been “epic” and possibly “oversized” and “bloated.” TROS seems much more restrained in comparison, for better or worse.

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DominicCobb said:

I’m kinda confused, because the art makes it looks like the film would have indeed been “epic” and possibly “oversized” and “bloated.” TROS seems much more restrained in comparison, for better or worse.

I understand what you mean. I guess the reason I prefer Trevorrow’s version to JJ’s version isn’t because it’s smaller, but because it’s more character focused. Every main character gets a coherent arc. Rey becomes a master of the Force, able to wield both light and dark, and begins training the next generation of Force users. Kylo becomes stronger and stronger in his quest for power, but as a result he becomes a machine, alienated from the living world. Finn uses his experience as a defecting stormtrooper to rally support on Coruscant, turning the tide of the war and destroying the First Order from within. All the character arcs in Trevorrow’s version are so much stronger than in JJ’s version, which sidelines the characters to focus on the big dumb action.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.