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The Rise Of Skywalker — Official Review and Opinions Thread — Page 17

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The whole post sounds fake as hell. That isn’t to say that the stuff within it can’t be true, but it just plainly reads as pure speculation being passed as fact.

And honestly I skimmed over the WB/DC stuff the first time I read it. But that just doesn’t make any sense, right? Why would Disney sabotage the final film in one of their biggest franchises just so that it’s director wouldn’t look as hot when he took on his next project? Fake.

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After how the Paxis scenario played out I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss this considering how much of an open book the TROS production has been.

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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idir_hh said:

After how the Paxis scenario played out I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss this considering how much of an open book the TROS production has been.

I mean, I’m late to the Praxis stuff but it seems like all of those leaks were related to what happens in the film itself. This “source” claims to have a bird’s eye view of everything going on, including privileged meetings and the personal opinions of Disney execs, JJ, and the cast and crew.

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If the source is hypothetically legit and has some position within Lucasfilm or Bad Robot, it is possible that these are things they’ve heard from coworkers. Like, “Susan was in a meeting with JJ and she told Keith who then told me.” Studio gossip isn’t unheard of me, but it definitely muddies the water of what is and isn’t true.

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Paxis had multiple sources (as did Making Star Wars) - the fact that leaks happened (leaks always happen, they’ve been happening on big movies for about 20 years now) regarding the plot of TROS doesn’t somehow lend veracity to this “leak” which has one single source and is very, very specific about a lot of details, and as such is very specific on how it contradicts itself.

This work of fan-fiction even makes sure to answer why those leaks were happening, and the answer it gave (it was studio-approved sabotage) is also ridiculous.

The Rise of Skywalker leaked because Bad Robot productions apparently are pretty leaky (you can look back and see this to be the case) and it leaked through at least 5 or 6 people, if not more. This is all coming from one person, unverified, who is telling a story so wild and contradictory and specific that it’s almost impossible to take seriously. It has an answer for everything, and those answers only make sense in a vacuum, because once you start looking at them as a whole nothing holds together. The story’s coherence depends on its reader being propelled by the feeling they get from “seeing through the lies of the Jedi” if you will.

Ironically - the story is constructed like a JJ Abrams movie. You’re so distracted by the latest example of “WTF now THIS is happening” that you don’t stop to look at the greater whole and realize that none of these stories really connect with each other at all.

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Broom Kid said:

Paxis had multiple sources (as did Making Star Wars) - the fact that leaks happened (leaks always happen, they’ve been happening on big movies for about 20 years now) regarding the plot of TROS doesn’t somehow lend veracity to this “leak” which has one single source and is very, very specific about a lot of details, and as such is very specific on how it contradicts itself.

This work of fan-fiction even makes sure to answer why those leaks were happening, and the answer it gave (it was studio-approved sabotage) is also ridiculous.

The Rise of Skywalker leaked because Bad Robot productions apparently are pretty leaky (you can look back and see this to be the case) and it leaked through at least 5 or 6 people, if not more. This is all coming from one person, unverified, who is telling a story so wild and contradictory and specific that it’s almost impossible to take seriously. It has an answer for everything, and those answers only make sense in a vacuum, because once you start looking at them as a whole nothing holds together. The story’s coherence depends on its reader being propelled by the feeling they get from “seeing through the lies of the Jedi” if you will.

Ironically - the story is constructed like a JJ Abrams movie. You’re so distracted by the latest example of “WTF now THIS is happening” that you don’t stop to look at the greater whole and realize that none of these stories really connect with each other at all.

Maybe JJ wrote it.

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idir_hh said:

I hesitate to post this here as I’m not sure whether it’s legit or not…

I already posted a link to this in the TROS discussion thread and thought not to post it in here since it’s technically the review and opinion thread.

But yes, very controversial stuff and I think worth taking with a few grains of salt to maintain a healthy skepticism until it can be further corroborated or confirmed.

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Broom Kid said:

Paxis had multiple sources (as did Making Star Wars) - the fact that leaks happened (leaks always happen, they’ve been happening on big movies for about 20 years now) regarding the plot of TROS doesn’t somehow lend veracity to this “leak” which has one single source and is very, very specific about a lot of details, and as such is very specific on how it contradicts itself.

This work of fan-fiction even makes sure to answer why those leaks were happening, and the answer it gave (it was studio-approved sabotage) is also ridiculous.

The Rise of Skywalker leaked because Bad Robot productions apparently are pretty leaky (you can look back and see this to be the case) and it leaked through at least 5 or 6 people, if not more. This is all coming from one person, unverified, who is telling a story so wild and contradictory and specific that it’s almost impossible to take seriously. It has an answer for everything, and those answers only make sense in a vacuum, because once you start looking at them as a whole nothing holds together. The story’s coherence depends on its reader being propelled by the feeling they get from “seeing through the lies of the Jedi” if you will.

Ironically - the story is constructed like a JJ Abrams movie. You’re so distracted by the latest example of “WTF now THIS is happening” that you don’t stop to look at the greater whole and realize that none of these stories really connect with each other at all.

Not to mention that Directors have a lot of protections and autonomy on their films. Sure, they can always be fired so the studio can hold that over their heads, but a studio can’t just take over a film like that says they did. A big studio like Disney would not want to anger the director’s guild to that extent (as it would limit the directors they could hire in the future). It is basically a run down of the leaks that weren’t in the final cut of the film. And Abrams has always been very positive when talking about the film and the editing process. So has the editor and his co-writer. So I don’t think any of this happened. It reads like a fanboy wish more than reality. Basically Abrams fans who didn’t like how TROS came out who are looking for a reason besides his directorial decisions. All the stuff on the list is stuff Mike Zeroh claimed was going to be in the film. Plus the longer running length.

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I don’t buy it. I could see Disney trimming certain parts of the edit to better please fans, but the anti-DC part is total BS. Disney would much rather Star Wars do well than sacrifice it to see DC do bad.

MAYBE during the discussion the source got angry and said something along the lines of, “you know what? I bet this is all to spite DC!”. And then it was misinterpreted.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Disney sabotaging their own film is blatantly BS. That being said, I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to at least consider that the WB/Bad Robot deal may have been a catalyst for Bob Iger exerting some creative power over this film.

Cue speculative alternate narrative…
JJ signed on under the condition of almost full creative control, Bob reluctantly agrees knowing that JJ might be a good asset to have in his pocketbook. WB deal happens and now JJ won’t be working with Disney again anytime soon, so Bob likely felt he could reverse course and put out the movie he (and whoever other non-creative executive types) thought would be most profitable.

I’m not saying it’s probable, but it’s way more likely than the vindictive sabotage portrayed in the leak. If there is any truth to the leaks, this could be a classic case of telephone.

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This speculation is good fun and all, but I’m sitting here wondering how Rey Force lightning that troop transport made it blow up, but in the finale, Palpatine zapping entire ships only made them disabled 🤔

The Rise of Failures

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TavorX said:

This speculation is good fun and all, but I’m sitting here wondering how Rey Force lightning that troop transport made it blow up, but in the finale, Palpatine zapping entire ships only made them disabled 🤔

Sheev is more experienced and has better control, plus he was dealing with a lot more ships.

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Humby said:

Disney sabotaging their own film is blatantly BS. That being said, I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to at least consider that the WB/Bad Robot deal may have been a catalyst for Bob Iger exerting some creative power over this film.

Cue speculative alternate narrative…
JJ signed on under the condition of almost full creative control, Bob reluctantly agrees knowing that JJ might be a good asset to have in his pocketbook. WB deal happens and now JJ won’t be working with Disney again anytime soon, so Bob likely felt he could reverse course and put out the movie he (and whoever other non-creative executive types) thought would be most profitable.

I’m not saying it’s probable, but it’s way more likely than the vindictive sabotage portrayed in the leak. If there is any truth to the leaks, this could be a classic case of telephone.

But Abrams is not just the writer/director. He is the writer/director/producer (he produced the entire Trilogy through Bad Robot, under Lucasfilm, under Disney). I don’t think the creator of this story understand what a no-no it would be for Disney to do that. The industry backlash could be terrible. None of the benefits are worth the risk. You hire a director you think you can trust and if they lose that trust, you fire them. You don’t meddle in the movie. The only way a studio can do that these days is for the Director to go past their deadline and then they can take the picture and finish it. That is what happened to blade Runner in 1982 (and how they made Ford the the voiceover and added the happy ending). Before they did that they had no power to make the director do anything. That is normal for Hollywood. They had to fire the Solo directors because they couldn’t meddle in the movie.

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Who is this “Sheev” person that people keep mentioning?

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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“Sheev” is Palpatine’s first name. That detail was one of Lucas’ last contributions to the lore, IIRC.

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DominicCobb said:

I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?

This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.

But Flash Gordon didn’t go on forever. There were three Flash Gordon serials, with each episode within each serial only being 12-15 minutes long. Even the OT is split up into “episodes,” each film is equal in story to one full Flash Gordon serial. Not to mention, there was a two year wait in between the film serials, not unlike the OT. However, in the ST’s case, there’s been a 30+ year wait. So having the same villain as all the others feels much different from 30 years ago is different than just bringing back the same one two years later.

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Voss Caltrez said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?

This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.

But Flash Gordon didn’t go on forever. There were three Flash Gordon serials, with each episode within each serial only being 12-15 minutes long. Even the OT is split up into “episodes,” each film is equal in story to one full Flash Gordon serial. Not to mention, there was a two year wait in between the film serials, not unlike the OT. However, in the ST’s case, there’s been a 30+ year wait. So having the same villain as all the others feels much different from 30 years ago is different than just bringing back the same one two years later.

Even though bringing back Palpatine makes sense of all the mysteries about Rey and Snoke? It is almost like that is what Abrams was thinking when he wrote TFA. And since Ian is still alive, how do we know that wasn’t one of Lucas’s ideas that they reused? It is the kind of move he would pull. Probably why I like it. And it is what they kept doing with Ming in Flash Gordon. It is what they keep doing with the Master in Doctor Who. He’s supposed to be dead and unable to regenerate, yet he keeps finding new ways to cheat death. I think we are up to 5 or 6 different ways at the present. So I really have no complaints about bringing back Palpatine once. It fits with the mythic origins of Star Wars.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

“Sheev” is Palpatine’s first name. That detail was one of Lucas’ last contributions to the lore, IIRC.

I can’t wait for the next edited release where someone says it out loud.

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Mocata said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

“Sheev” is Palpatine’s first name. That detail was one of Lucas’ last contributions to the lore, IIRC.

I can’t wait for the next edited release where someone says it out loud.

Sheev Maclunkey Palpatine - it was always meant to be his full name… and George will go back and change past documentation to prove it (once again) 😉

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 (Edited)

Voss Caltrez said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?

This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.

But Flash Gordon didn’t go on forever. There were three Flash Gordon serials, with each episode within each serial only being 12-15 minutes long. Even the OT is split up into “episodes,” each film is equal in story to one full Flash Gordon serial. Not to mention, there was a two year wait in between the film serials, not unlike the OT. However, in the ST’s case, there’s been a 30+ year wait. So having the same villain as all the others feels much different from 30 years ago is different than just bringing back the same one two years later.

You’re missing the point I think, taking things a bit too literally. The goal of the original Star Wars film was for you to feel the unique thrill of being dropped into a serial halfway through, but obviously it’s not exactly the same.

My point is mostly that in old serials, be it Flash Gordon, Gene Autry, Batman, Zorro, whoever, there was always the presumption, even at the end of the serial, that there would be some other threat, some other adventure on the horizon that they’d be there to stop. Lucas has compared Star Wars to James Bond a lot and it’s the same idea. Again, obviously rendered very differently.

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DominicCobb said:

Even though bringing back Palpatine makes sense of all the mysteries about Rey and Snoke? It is almost like that is what Abrams was thinking when he wrote TFA. And since Ian is still alive, how do we know that wasn’t one of Lucas’s ideas that they reused? It is the kind of move he would pull. Probably why I like it. And it is what they kept doing with Ming in Flash Gordon. It is what they keep doing with the Master in Doctor Who. He’s supposed to be dead and unable to regenerate, yet he keeps finding new ways to cheat death. I think we are up to 5 or 6 different ways at the present. So I really have no complaints about bringing back Palpatine once. It fits with the mythic origins of Star Wars.

Palpatine does NOT make sense of the mysteries around Rey and Snoke. Rey’s parent-reveal was out of left field and didn’t make sense with what TFA and TLJ seemed to be establishing.
Snoke was being puppeted by Palpatine or was he just a pawn? What if Snoke had convinced Kylo to kill Rey in TLJ? Then what? Made no sense.
Reusing the Emperor does sound like a Lucas move, and that on it’s own I don’t necessarily have a problem with. It probably would feel more “Star Wars”-like if they just reuse him, versus some green skinned alien with a pony tail as the new big bad.
However, I can see the complaints that none of the sacrifices seem to matter if the SAME guy keeps coming back. It kind of works in different genres in different mediums, but I think those particular stories lose integrity, and why stories with a definitive ending are often times superior.

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DominicCobb said:

You’re missing the point I think, taking things a bit too literally. The goal of the original Star Wars film was for you to feel the unique thrill of being dropped into a serial halfway through, but obviously it’s not exactly the same.

My point is mostly that in old serials, be it Flash Gordon, Gene Autry, Batman, Zorro, whoever, there was always the presumption, even at the end of the serial, that there would be some other threat, some other adventure on the horizon that they’d be there to stop. Lucas has compared Star Wars to James Bond a lot and it’s the same idea. Again, obviously rendered very differently.

My point is, that just because it’s inspired by Flash Gordon doesn’t mean you have to have it be just like Flash Gordon, or Batman. I think it should aspire to be better than those serials. And again, I feel like Star Wars was an amalgamation of many different inspirations, to the point that it became its own thing.

I’m fine with him coming back, but just having it explained that he survived ROTJ? That’s it? Luke and Yoda didn’t feel a disturbance in the Force during this time?
If the bar is serials from 80 years ago okay fine. But that’s a low bar to me.

I suppose that Star Wars, as a whole was never great cinema. Only one of them attempts to be a bit better than the rest, feels like it was going for a slightly more serious direction. So yeah, these new films are in-line with what came before.
I personally didn’t need to see this new trilogy. I didn’t really care about these new characters, the “mysteries” weren’t even good, the story felt disjointed.
The OT had a good story, although ROTJ was a severe regression in quality.
Making a PT of Anakin Skywalker was definitely worth telling, but the result was very bad.
The new ST just feels like a cynical cash grab, and less about someone having this important story to tell.

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Voss Caltrez said:

DominicCobb said:

You’re missing the point I think, taking things a bit too literally. The goal of the original Star Wars film was for you to feel the unique thrill of being dropped into a serial halfway through, but obviously it’s not exactly the same.

My point is mostly that in old serials, be it Flash Gordon, Gene Autry, Batman, Zorro, whoever, there was always the presumption, even at the end of the serial, that there would be some other threat, some other adventure on the horizon that they’d be there to stop. Lucas has compared Star Wars to James Bond a lot and it’s the same idea. Again, obviously rendered very differently.

My point is, that just because it’s inspired by Flash Gordon doesn’t mean you have to have it be just like Flash Gordon, or Batman. I think it should aspire to be better than those serials. And again, I feel like Star Wars was an amalgamation of many different inspirations, to the point that it became its own thing.

Like I said they’re obviously very different. I just mean in the very basic sense it’s exploring that idea that “there will always be bad guys out there,” as opposed to the ROTJ ending (especially within PT framing) which suggests the dark side has been destroyed for good. In my mind the first two ST films were telling a pretty quality story along those lines.

I’m fine with him coming back, but just having it explained that he survived ROTJ? That’s it? Luke and Yoda didn’t feel a disturbance in the Force during this time?
If the bar is serials from 80 years ago okay fine. But that’s a low bar to me.

I wasn’t talking about Palpatine coming back. You’re confusing my posts with yotsuya.

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yotsuya said:

Voss Caltrez said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?

This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.

But Flash Gordon didn’t go on forever. There were three Flash Gordon serials, with each episode within each serial only being 12-15 minutes long. Even the OT is split up into “episodes,” each film is equal in story to one full Flash Gordon serial. Not to mention, there was a two year wait in between the film serials, not unlike the OT. However, in the ST’s case, there’s been a 30+ year wait. So having the same villain as all the others feels much different from 30 years ago is different than just bringing back the same one two years later.

Even though bringing back Palpatine makes sense of all the mysteries about Rey and Snoke? It is almost like that is what Abrams was thinking when he wrote TFA. And since Ian is still alive, how do we know that wasn’t one of Lucas’s ideas that they reused? It is the kind of move he would pull. Probably why I like it. And it is what they kept doing with Ming in Flash Gordon. It is what they keep doing with the Master in Doctor Who. He’s supposed to be dead and unable to regenerate, yet he keeps finding new ways to cheat death. I think we are up to 5 or 6 different ways at the present. So I really have no complaints about bringing back Palpatine once. It fits with the mythic origins of Star Wars.

Ian McDiarmid said once in an interview that Lucas told him personally many years ago that Palpi had died in ROTJ!😉