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The Rise Of Skywalker — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * SPOILERS * — Page 27

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I’m kinda confused, because the art makes it looks like the film would have indeed been “epic” and possibly “oversized” and “bloated.” TROS seems much more restrained in comparison, for better or worse.

I understand what you mean. I guess the reason I prefer Trevorrow’s version to JJ’s version isn’t because it’s smaller, but because it’s more character focused. Every main character gets a coherent arc. Rey becomes a master of the Force, able to wield both light and dark, and begins training the next generation of Force users. Kylo becomes stronger and stronger in his quest for power, but as a result he becomes a machine, alienated from the living world. Finn uses his experience as a defecting stormtrooper to rally support on Coruscant, turning the tide of the war and destroying the First Order from within. All the character arcs in Trevorrow’s version are so much stronger than in JJ’s version, which sidelines the characters to focus on the big dumb action.

I agree that sounds better (besides Kylo whose storyline seems painfully lame), but I can’t bring myself to declare it better, partly because I tend to think that it was the edit of JJ’s version that ultimately made it focused on big dumb action, and there’s no way to know what the final product of Trevorrow’s concepts would have looked like.

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Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
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NeverarGreat said:

Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.

The TFA art is illuminating as well, because you have, for instance, let’s say five or so distinct concepts for what kind of planet Jakku might be. So even if the film did completely follow through with a cool piece of art it necessarily will not be able to satisfy every concept.

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DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.

The TFA art is illuminating as well, because you have, for instance, let’s say five or so distinct concepts for what kind of planet Jakku might be. So even if the film did completely follow through with a cool piece of art it necessarily will not be able to satisfy every concept.

Yeah, but the concepts we’ve seen so far look pretty faithful to Trevorrow’s script. Remember that the art of TLJ was almost exactly like the theatrical movie, and no matter what your opinions on that movie are you have to agree it looks awesome. And I don’t just like the script because of the cool visuals, I like it because of the characters and the plot too. The plot of TROS is a hot mess, and no amount of editing would be able to fix it in my opinion. So I think this version of IX would be much better than the theatrical version.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I’m kinda confused, because the art makes it looks like the film would have indeed been “epic” and possibly “oversized” and “bloated.” TROS seems much more restrained in comparison, for better or worse.

I understand what you mean. I guess the reason I prefer Trevorrow’s version to JJ’s version isn’t because it’s smaller, but because it’s more character focused. Every main character gets a coherent arc. Rey becomes a master of the Force, able to wield both light and dark, and begins training the next generation of Force users. Kylo becomes stronger and stronger in his quest for power, but as a result he becomes a machine, alienated from the living world. Finn uses his experience as a defecting stormtrooper to rally support on Coruscant, turning the tide of the war and destroying the First Order from within. All the character arcs in Trevorrow’s version are so much stronger than in JJ’s version, which sidelines the characters to focus on the big dumb action.

I just get a sense that some of it would have been lost in the time frame of a film. The stormtrooper rebellion is a nice idea, but it seems like it should be a series rather than a film. That is where having a single creative mind directing the entire trilogy arc would have been beneficial. And I don’t like Kylo becoming stronger and unredeemable. That is the worst aspect of the story in my opinion. I do like the story actually commenting on Rey using both sides, but that really isn’t necessary. To me the scale feels smaller and much less epic without Snoke or Palpatine or some big bad. I don’t like Kylo filling that role because frankly he isn’t that level of villain. In the story he can’t live up to Vader and the way the character was created Kylo can never live up to Vader. His inner conflict is a key aspect that this version is missing. That conflict led to his redemption. I really don’t think I would have been as happy if they had kept his script. And I really hate Palpatine having a “Yoda” when Darth Plagueis had previously been established as his master. Just too much off for me to like the story. The art is cool, but the story isn’t. Oh, and Colin has stated that while R2 would have been damaged, he was not dead. Much like ANH. And contrary to how you feel, I think that TROS did concentrate on the characters and gave us a huge payoff for all the character growth from TLJ.

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.

The TFA art is illuminating as well, because you have, for instance, let’s say five or so distinct concepts for what kind of planet Jakku might be. So even if the film did completely follow through with a cool piece of art it necessarily will not be able to satisfy every concept.

Yeah, but the concepts we’ve seen so far look pretty faithful to Trevorrow’s script. Remember that the art of TLJ was almost exactly like the theatrical movie, and no matter what your opinions on that movie are you have to agree it looks awesome. And I don’t just like the script because of the cool visuals, I like it because of the characters and the plot too. The plot of TROS is a hot mess, and no amount of editing would be able to fix it in my opinion. So I think this version of IX would be much better than the theatrical version.

My issue is that you are describing it as a “hot mess” with no details. Where did it fail and how? I am truly curious where you think it failed exactly. I could call TFA a hot mess, but I know exactly why and exactly why it bothers me. (and it partly is from things that were leaked that sounded cool in the leak but were badly edited in the final cut).

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I think the Stormtrooper rebellion should have been a huge part of the 3rd film. The primary B-plot, really. If the A-plot is Rey vs. Kylo/Palpatine (Religion) then the B-plot should have been Poe/Finn vs. Hux/First Order (military) and the best possible way to have pulled that off would be through the Stormtrooper rebellion.

The First Order should have been seen as untenable considering how rabid and power-hungry it’s two leaders were. That power structure eating itself alive and the Resistance using that opportunity to turn its numbers to their side to help bring the First Order down could (and should) have been a major plot point, especially considering Finn’s status as an ex-trooper.

Honestly, the fact nothing ultimately ever came of Finn’s defection is sort of like the giant missed opportunity in the Prequel trilogy where slavery is introduced as a concept and then the Jedi and the Republic literally never bring it up again, much less attempt to do anything about it. Especially in a story as inherently moralistic as Star Wars is.

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TROS does even worse, they introduce Janna and her squad of defectors and what do they proceed to do? Mindlessly destroy millions of capital ships containing kidnapped/brainwashed men, women and (very likely) children on exogol.

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idir_hh said:

TROS does even worse, they introduce Janna and her squad of defectors and what do they proceed to do? Mindlessly destroy millions of capital ships containing kidnapped/brainwashed men, women and (very likely) children on exogol.

Not too different from destroying two Death Stars. When you have millions trying to kill billions, there isn’t much of a choice.

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I don’t think they “mindlessly” did anything. They were trying to save the galaxy from Palpatine’s New Order. That’s pretty mindful. There’s only so far you can go in the middle of a war to save as many people as you can from the opposite side during the fighting. That’s part of why war is such an inherently tragic setting. And there are ways to amplify that feeling, or mute it. Star Wars has mostly always chosen to mute it, save for very specific instances, which don’t happen very frequently in the movies themselves (they happen a little more frequently in the Clone Wars show).

My problem isn’t with the characters so much as with the conceptualizing of their behavior and the situations they’re dropped in by the writers. Abrams set up a scenario where Finn defected from the First Order because he’s a good man, and then he just… never followed up on it. Johnson DID follow up on it, and then cut it out of The Last Jedi for the sake of time (I think the minute or two he saved by doing that was ultimately not worth it, and he should have left those beats in). Had he left it in, maybe it would have been so clearly described in the minds of the general audience that Abrams felt he would have HAD to address Finn’s status as a symbol to other troopers that they don’t HAVE to keep working for Kylo and Hux.

Instead he invented Jannah and her team of defectors and… didn’t do anything with them, really. And even then, Jannah’s defection is more character shading than anything else, because the purpose of her was primarily to connect to Lando more than anything else. And even THAT got cut.

Trevorrow’s script (and his ensuing direction) probably would have had their own set of very big and dumb problems, but I think people are reacting as positively as they are not only because it’s forever a hypothetical and the grass stays greener on that side, but because he was actively engaging with those sorts of ideas. Finn’s major purpose isn’t to help Rey find a thing which leads to a thing and then he has to help shut off a thing. Finn’s major purpose is to inspire a rebellion within the First Order. I wish I’d gotten to see that.

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I totally agree that the stormtrooper rebellion is a great idea, but it isn’t one that works very well in the context of a typical Star Wars film. Each film is about an event that doesn’t last very long (TESB is kind of an exception but only slightly). Such a rebellion would have been great if they had laid the foundation over three films and then done the payoff, or if they had any hint of it. But in TROS they are portrayed as those who are force sensitive, not just those of conscience. And in many ways they are slaves to the First Order and the first callback to that issue since AOTC.

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yotsuya said:

idir_hh said:

Not too different from destroying two Death Stars. When you have millions trying to kill billions, there isn’t much of a choice.

Different in the sense that finn and Janna had a connection with the storm troopers, heck they were their family, at least a little hesitation, instead they are having the time of their lives gunning down their former comrades.

Broom Kid said:

My problem isn’t with the characters so much as with the conceptualizing of their behavior and the situations they’re dropped in by the writers.

Yes this is what frustrates me the most, they put Finn in the most useless situations possible.

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yotsuya said:

I totally agree that the stormtrooper rebellion is a great idea, but it isn’t one that works very well in the context of a typical Star Wars film.

  1. I think “typical” Star Wars films shouldn’t be the only Star Wars films we get anymore, and adhering solely to what’s “typical” in a Star Wars movie is probably a bad call.
  2. I don’t agree with the idea that it wouldn’t work very well since we’ve never seen one before to know whether it would or wouldn’t.

instead they are having the time of their lives gunning down their former comrades.

No they aren’t. There really isn’t any use or purpose to hyperbolically reinventing what they’re doing in the film (and how they’re doing it) for the sake of criticism. You can criticize the direction and the writing and the execution without having to use inaccurate descriptors like “mindlessly” or “Having the time of their lives” as if they’re ecstatic and joyful about killing stormtroopers. It’s not played that way. They’re ecstatic that they’re going to prevent Palpatines victory, and they’re happy they’re still ALIVE despite being directly in the line of enemy fire - that’s different than being ecstatic about killing people.

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The sad thing is they didn’t even need to show a full on stormtrooper rebellion. Even just the suggestion of a rebellion off screen following the film would have been nice. Honestly, even just convincing other stormtroopers to defect, or convincing the already defected stormtroopers (Jannah and co.) to fight for the resistance would have been something.

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Absolutely. I appreciate that there was a Coruscant uprising in Trevorrow’s script, but even if that had been cut, the presence in the script of the ONE scene where Finn essentially helps free a First Order trooper both physically AND mentally (“Get yourself a name. That’s the first step.”) makes it something I really wish we’d gotten to see.

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.

The TFA art is illuminating as well, because you have, for instance, let’s say five or so distinct concepts for what kind of planet Jakku might be. So even if the film did completely follow through with a cool piece of art it necessarily will not be able to satisfy every concept.

Yeah, but the concepts we’ve seen so far look pretty faithful to Trevorrow’s script. Remember that the art of TLJ was almost exactly like the theatrical movie, and no matter what your opinions on that movie are you have to agree it looks awesome. And I don’t just like the script because of the cool visuals, I like it because of the characters and the plot too. The plot of TROS is a hot mess, and no amount of editing would be able to fix it in my opinion. So I think this version of IX would be much better than the theatrical version.

It’s faithful to a version of Trevorrow’s script. Keep in mind this version is from 12/16, and there very likely would have been many changes from then to 12/19 - not just in the script phase, but in the production and post-production phases as well. TLJ was pretty much fully formed from the initial drafts, but DOTF would have likely gone through many revisions when you consider they were unhappy enough with it to fire Trevorrow outright.

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I think Carrie’s unfortunate passing was a major factor of why he left the project, he probably couldn’t crack a satisfactory script without recasting or CGI and he probably refused to direct Jack Thorne’s script which according to MSW was Cursed Child levels of awful.

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NeverarGreat said:

Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.

True, but the concept and leaked scripts for TRoS looked much worse than this one, if it’s of any indication.

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Small thing, but Rey’s line

I will earn your brother’s saber.

Weird one. First I should say every time I saw the film, I thought she was saying “I will learn your brother’s saber,” partially because of how she says it but also because this is directly tied with her training.

Anyway, it does feel like an important marker for the symbolism of the saber in the film. But wouldn’t it have made more sense though if she said “I will earn you family’s saber”? That kind of gets to the heart of what’s really going on in regards to Rey’s struggle with her legacy, and her ultimate identification with the Skywalker line much better, doesn’t it? And really in the final scene, she should have used the saber to build her new one, rather than just burying it.

I mean, really that beat should have happened at the beginning of the film rather than at the end, but what can you do.

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Yeah to me it looked like JJ was trying to adress the “Marysue” elements of Rey right off the bat in the intro training montage, failing the circuit and admitting that she is unworthy of the saber and needs more training, but the way it was executed was terribly rushed and felt quite contrived.

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idir_hh said:

Yeah to me it looked like JJ was trying to adress the “Marysue” elements of Rey right off the bat in the intro training montage, failing the circuit and admitting that she is unworthy of the saber and needs more training, but the way it was executed was terribly rushed and felt quite contrived.

It was contrived. He has a couple of shots with Carrie handing the saber back and forth and he wanted to use them and the way he did it was clumsy. That is the one edit I’d make. Rey wouldn’t give Leia the saber or take it back. The dialog part of the scenes wouldn’t need to change. Other than those two, I thought the Leia scenes worked well. But those two make the story stumble a bit.