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The Rise Of Skywalker — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * SPOILERS * — Page 13

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I do agree that the pace felt way less jarring on the second viewing, too.

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yotsuya said:

liamnotneeson said:

DominicCobb said:

To me what makes characters interesting are there arcs, not just how “fun” they are. TFA and TLJ accomplished this. TROS had cool character ‘moments,’ but it’s just about impossible to track any of the characters stories scene to scene. It’s a mess, which really sucks as a conclusion to their stories (especially when many of them undermine the lessons of the previous films).

I think that this is a result of TLJ. The second act of a trilogy is when most of your character’s development should occur, and Rian wasted it with the already-infamously bad Canto Bight subplot.

I disagree. I think TLJ had a lot of character development. Poe, Finn, and Rey each face a major character flaw and come out the end of the film changed. Poe learns the difference between bravado and leadership. Finn learns what it means to believe in a cause. Rey realizes that she can’t look to others and must rely on herself. All very important character moments and all very crucial to the finale in TROS. The characters in TFA could not do what the characters do in TROS without the changes in TLJ. Everything Johnson did in TLJ, Abrams took and used for TROS. Sure, more was added to Rey’s parents, but only who they were related to. They still were nobodies who don’t even have names. As far as I’m concerned, all the ruckass about TLJ and TROS changing course is nonsense. Everything I got out of TLJ is still valid and necessary to TROS. And I loved the Canto Bight subplot. It added a dimension to the Star Wars galaxy and I think it helped Finn find out who he is.

I see what you’re saying, but I think all of those things fell flat in TLJ.

In my opinion, making Poe out to be brash and foolhardy was a poor arc for the character. It’s really easy to give a character like Poe a flaw like that. It felt like Rian sat down and thought, “What should Po do? How about I make him learn to not be reckless?”

How did Finn learn to believe in a cause? He tried to jump ship, went to a planet where he learned the Resistance was funding the eeevil rich people on Canto Bight, killed his old boss, then almost got away with saving the Resistance before Rose told him that “you not going to win by fighting what you hate.” He learned to believe in a cause, how? By almost sacrificing himself? When did he learn to do that, on Canto Bight? Look, man, I’m not a huge critic of TLJ, but this in my opinion is a massive flaw with the movie, the throwing away of Finn’s character.

Rey realized to rely on herself, not look at others, okay. It’s so great that she used that lesson in TROS- she never would have killed Palpatine if she hadn’t learned to not rely on others…

No offense, kid, but I don’t think you know how to boil water.

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Rey already learned to rely on herself while living on Jakku. Relying on others was not really a big issue nor was it a huge problem for her to learn to work with and trust others. No, her main internal conflict was learning how to let go of the past and accept her new role as a Jedi. This very much aligns well with Luke in ANH. After both accept that they have no business clinging onto Tatooine/Jakku, both seek guidance. It took Rey a little longer to come terms with this, but by the end of TFA, she grew as a character.
TLJ’s Rey and her flaw is a little more than with relying on others. It’s mainly a struggle with finding a belonging/place/role in the galaxy. Her arc more or less is understanding that she alone can define her role.
However, I think the issue is that both these issues are appear far too similar between these two films. Luke in ESB was struggling with the temptation of the darkside and avoiding following too closely in his father’s reckless ways. Perhaps TLJ was trying to convey that Rey was a nobody and therefore just as dangerous to be a blankslate that could easily succumb to the whims of the corrupt. Again, I don’t believe it was done well.
I’ll be seeing TROS today, so I’ll then able to truly see for myself how well or sloppily it honors the story decisions of TLJ.

The Rise of Failures

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This was the ideal situation to allow Finn’s arc and role to be properly finished. But when they board Kylo’s ship it’s not even Finn who advises them to shoot the cameras. I honestly imagined a restored (or crippled) Phasma to arrive, so that he could work with Janna to face their past. Instead… nothing?

Yub Nub for life

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Started thinking about Empire and Jedi today.

ESB was so radically different and full of new and shocking ideas compared to SW77.

ROTJ was less bold, less original, and had far less to say, just wrapping things up quick and efficient, and throwing an extra “Surprise you’re related to someone!” that kinda comes out of nowhere.

Now I look at the ST and here George’s words again… it echoes. Like jazz.

TAFKA TheBoost

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Morgan the Boost said:

Started thinking about Empire and Jedi today.

ESB was so radically different and full of new and shocking ideas compared to SW77.

ROTJ was less bold, less original, and had far less to say, just wrapping things up quick and efficient, and throwing an extra “Surprise you’re related to someone!” that kinda comes out of nowhere.

Now I look at the ST and here George’s words again… it echoes. Like jazz.

I think this one threw more curveballs than ROTJ. Palpatine returning is pretty big. Finn being Force-sensitive is also technically new, even though it was teased a lot at in TFA. Force diads was a new concept.

Maybe it’s just that I’ve known it as long as I’ve seen Star Wars, but I feel like Leia being Luke’s sister isn’t as big of a reveal as Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter. Rey’s backstory is something that was a huge mystery and made out to be so important in TFA. In ROTJ it feels like it’s something just tacked onto Leia’s character.

No offense, kid, but I don’t think you know how to boil water.

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J0E said:

liamnotneeson said:

Mocata said:

Morgan the Boost said:
Like jazz.

A bunch of musicians soloing at the same time?

Jazz: A Star Wars Story

It’s like poetry. It’s so that they rhyme.

What rhymes with creatively bankrupt?

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

J0E said:

liamnotneeson said:

Mocata said:

Morgan the Boost said:
Like jazz.

A bunch of musicians soloing at the same time?

Jazz: A Star Wars Story

It’s like poetry. It’s so that they rhyme.

What rhymes with creatively bankrupt?

People who repeatedly bash on the new films without having seen them - across many discussion threads about them?

People who don’t seem to care that other members have left already the site (temporarily or permanently), are leaving the site, and others likely are considering the same - over this agenda of repeated negativity - and yet carry on regardless?

If you have genuine opinions or valid criticisms of the film… then great - post away. Not a problem - and various viewpoints and discourse are always welcome here (in a civil manner and on-topic, of course).

If not… then find or create a more relevant thread to post in. Maybe an ‘I haven’t seen the film but come in here for my negative opinion on how awful it is’ thread.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Valheru_84 said:

oojason said:
Some members are over-stepping the mark with their repeated criticisms - to the point of continuous negativity. Some have not seen the film, nor plan to, and stating why is perfectly acceptable. However, some are going far beyond this - seemingly going into related threads and making continued negative posts about content they have not seen, informing others here how awful the thing they hasn’t seen is… Some have seen it - and are doing similar…

Members here have left, are leaving, and considering leaving… whether temporarily or permanently… because of such repeated negativity from a few others on here - that is not going to continue.

If people can’t post in a civil manner here, nor have a modicum of respect for fellow members, and wish to spread their habitual agenda of negativity… they won’t be posting here at all - that goes for anyone.

This site is a vast one - and covers many aspects of Star Wars over a long, long time. There are many topics or issues to discuss - I suggest people find something they do actually enjoy posting about - rather than spending their considerable time and effort in repeatedly bashing or hating on films or the people who made them - and for some here who claim to not care about, or have not seen.

I believe that some of this is directed at me and fair enough if you feel that way though I didn’t I feel that I was spreading continuous negativity nor was it ever my intention to if you think I am.

There is a semi-crossover of conversation between the two spoiler threads, box office results thread and some supporting threads that I felt I was just organically replying to various posts that I felt I had something to say about or add to after making my initial posts on my opinion regarding the reception of the movie. I haven’t been able to get on OT.com much to the extent where I have time to reply often and quickly to an ongoing conversation so sometimes it probably does look like I’ve suddenly gone crazy posting in all these threads at once but it’s just me getting the chance to finally post that reply I wanted to hours ago or even the previous day, often there are multiple posts I want to reply to.

As indicated in my reply to Biggs, I don’t feel I am someone that would be saying anything in particular to make people leave and I find it odd they would choose to leave OT.com over some critical comments about TROS or the DT in a few specific threads out of the thousands on here.

The fact it seems I am restricted from posting further in here just because someone doesn’t like what I am saying doesn’t feel right. My more recent posts I actually thought were more lighthearted and the link to Thor was just a topic I thought was worth discussing since it’s an integral part of the Skywalker saga that TROS is supposed to conclude and whether you agree with Thor or not, he poses some good questions and has interesting discourse on many things Star Wars which I thought is what people like to do here.

I don’t feel that I have been uncivil once in here nor disrespectful to anyone in particular so at this point would it be fair for me to continue posting in here as just part of the normal course of conversation and if anyone feels I’m being unnecessarily negative, they can report my post which if you or another mod agree it is overstepping what is reasonable, then you can tap me on the shoulder via PM and I will gracefully exit the thread for a good while? I understood the warning at the start of the thread so like I said, I am not intentionally trying to create any trouble (not that I would otherwise want to anyway).

It is not just in this thread, or other threads on Episode IX, that people are unhappy with the levels of repeated negative posting, and to claim otherwise is being mendacious.

From a look at just your post history there are many many negative posts about TLJ (and other films - or people assoicated with them). TLJ is a movie you claim to have only seen once. You post about it so much it is an agenda - certain people on here have it too, and as oojason says it goes beyond valid criticism or opinion.

That you think people were referring to you on this matter confirms much.

You are the man who threatened to punch the moderator over an image of Lando from Solo? (you have a problem with pansexuals or homosexuals? - I do not remember clearly? Though if it in is reference to the droid having feelings and wishes for Lando it is only ‘girl’s talk’ in the Solo film, and not a big part of the movie). You have not seen this movie either?

It is not just you being negative so much that people do not want to come here anymore, nor should feel it is, but maybe it IS best everyone should know how some other members feel about the situation. Some have left quite some time ago, many more over time according to those who have been here much longer than me, and if 5/6 people have left recently or are considering leaving, then more likely also are too.

It is understandable that the moderators take action. Do they want a site with negative opinions everywhere repeated throughout the forum that has chased members off from being welcome? To be left with people who want to post their toxic agenda through the many threads here - without even seeing the film in some cases? No, of course not.

Does anyone else?

Have people lost the ability to scroll by what they do not like, to talk more about what they love and like more than what they do not? Or have mixed feelings on? For some, it seems so.

If they, the moderators, are posting warnings like the above, then more fool anyone who thinks their repeated hated views of the movies (or people who make them, or appear in them) through the threads here is worth more than the site itself.

As the moderators do state that, legitimate opinion and crictism are welcome, and wide-ranging views too.

(apologies if my English is not good - or have insulted you or others like minded as you, it was not the intention, but more to further clarify.)

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Force-Abel said:

That you think people were referring to you on this matter confirms much.

To be fair I feel like the messaging has been so vague I’ve questioned whether or not I was being considered one of the bad eggs…

Tensions are high but I haven’t seen a lot of people disrespected, not going to argue much further than that (as I don’t know all the history and may be speaking out of turn), I already feel like several threads are ironically now being derailed by response to what appeared to me to be just other’s opinions. I expect and hope the dust will settle within the coming weeks of release, until then I hope everyone can still have a good time talking about the movies good or bad through the remainder of their holiday.

EDIT: If you use this post to justify hostile behavior you have missed my point entirely.

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act on instinct said:

Force-Abel said:

That you think people were referring to you on this matter confirms much.

To be fair I feel like the messaging has been so vague I’ve questioned whether or not I was being considered one of the bad eggs…

Tensions are high but I haven’t seen a lot of people disrespected, not going to argue much further than that (as I don’t know all the history and may be speaking out of turn), I already feel like several threads are ironically now being derailed by response to what appeared to me to be just other’s opinions. I expect and hope the dust will settle within the coming weeks of release, until then I hope everyone can still have a good time talking about the movies good or bad through the remainder of their holiday.

Of course the messaging is vague. There’s no more convenient way to wield power than to do it arbitrarily.

Just kidding. The rule is…if someone who liked the film is offended then your opinion is ‘toxic’.

The very use of the term suggests a certain political leaning is required in order to be on the righteous side of this debate.

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luckydube56 said:

The very use of the term suggests a certain political leaning is required in order to be on the righteous side of this debate.

What a total load, now you’re just leaping to conclusions in order to stir the pot, please refer to the second half of my post about derailing threads, who has the victim complex here?

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act on instinct said:

luckydube56 said:

The very use of the term suggests a certain political leaning is required in order to be on the righteous side of this debate.

What a total load, now you’re just leaping to conclusions in order to stir the pot, please refer to the second half of my post about derailing threads, who has the victim complex here?

‘Load’? That reeks of a different type of toxicity.

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luckydube56 said:

act on instinct said:

Force-Abel said:

That you think people were referring to you on this matter confirms much.

To be fair I feel like the messaging has been so vague I’ve questioned whether or not I was being considered one of the bad eggs…

Tensions are high but I haven’t seen a lot of people disrespected, not going to argue much further than that (as I don’t know all the history and may be speaking out of turn), I already feel like several threads are ironically now being derailed by response to what appeared to me to be just other’s opinions. I expect and hope the dust will settle within the coming weeks of release, until then I hope everyone can still have a good time talking about the movies good or bad through the remainder of their holiday.

Of course the messaging is vague. There’s no more convenient way to wield power than to do it arbitrarily.

Just kidding. The rule is…if someone who liked the film is offended then your opinion is ‘toxic’.

The very use of the term suggests a certain political leaning is required in order to be on the righteous side of this debate.

Strange, because some members who didn’t like the film, or are mixed overall on it, - and not just IX; but TLJ, TFA, and other modern SW content too… have also asked for the repeated negative posting across various threads on here to be stopped or curtailed.

So your statement of ‘The rule is…if someone who liked the film is offended then your opinion is ‘toxic’’ is indeed incorrect.

And that highlights a problem within - ‘the side(s) of the debate’…

There are no sides - just opinions and taking about the films. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion here - in a civil manner, of course.

Of course, there are those who wish to create sides, bring politics into it, put words into the mouths of others, and willfully take what others have said and twist the context / meaning / application of…

Yet the fact remains people are free to post their genuine opinion and reviews of the films on here - in a civil manner - as has been stated in many threads on the subject before. For some reason you wish overlook, or exclude, this fact.
 

luckydube56 said:

DominicCobb said:

Maybe just, I don’t know, don’t be a dick?

Dicks show up when there is an over abundance of pussies.

That’s simply just baiting - maybe to the point of trolling. Either way it isn’t civil.

You were told your previous posts of ‘Dicks show up when there is an over abundance of pussies’ and something about ‘offending delicate wallflowers’ and more were deleted - and why; yet here you are posting it again…

It is obvious you are not interested in conversing with fellow members in the threads about the films (which you have not seen) - and would rather insult them or put words into the mouths of others.

Hopefully the New Year will see you return posting in a more civil fashion.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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On second viewing I liked it even more. I had in the back of my mind that I might have missed something the first time around, but I don’t think I did. I didn’t find any big holes and it was even more fun to see it again. I was able to concentrate and hear most of the Jedi lines. Awesome film. Abrams best film ever. He actually managed to nail the ending and add in a short epilogue.

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yotsuya said:

On second viewing I liked it even more. I had in the back of my mind that I might have missed something the first time around, but I don’t think I did. I didn’t find any big holes and it was even more fun to see it again. I was able to concentrate and hear most of the Jedi lines. Awesome film. Abrams best film ever. He actually managed to nail the ending and add in a short epilogue.

I didn’t have the same experience. If I turn off my brain, it’s a fun albeit messy movie, but once I really delved into the plot, and story it really sort of falls apart much like JJ’s Star Trek 2. There’s a ton of conveniences from the way the heroes conveniently stumble onto the dagger by conveniently landing in quick sand at the right spot, to the way they escape on a ship, that has stood untouched on a hill for a decade (contrast this with the Mandalorean finding his ship stripped for parts after a day), to how the dagger is used to find the location of the wayfinder on moving wreckage in an ocean. Then there’s Lando conjuring a massive fleet and getting it from the core systems to the unknown regions in a time frame that just isn’t possible according to Star Wars canon. I could go on, and on, but you get the idea. This movie is just so sloppy in terms of its storytelling both in terms of in-movie logic, and in relation to established in-universe rules, and lore. I’m not going to be debating this very much anymore, as I’ve kind of grown apathetic towards the new Star Wars movies in general, and the ST in particular (RO being the sole exception), but in my view TFA was a fun, reasonably competent retelling of ANH with a few elements of TESB, and ROTJ thrown in, TLJ is the anti-thesis of Lucas’ Star Wars for me, that I don’t care to discuss any longer, and TROS is ROTJ on steriods, a movie, that hides its many, many flaws with lightning fast pacing, and amazing visuals. It’s funny that with the release of TROS I’m kind of done with discussing these films. There’s just not much there for me, that I haven’t seen done better in the past, and so ROTJ will remain the conclusion of the saga for me personally. The one thing that I am oddly grateful for is, that the recent movies have given me a better appreciation of Lucas’ prequels. I think the Mandalorian, and other live action tv shows have a lot of potential for the future, but the Star Wars cinematic universe has grown stale in my view. I will sort of look at it from a distance to see how Disney will handle the inevitable fallout from the film’s likely underperformance at the box office, mixed reviews, and low cinema score. I suspect they will want to put this entire mess behind them, and will largely ignore this era in their future content, and a new team will likely be brought in to shape the future of the Star Wars cinematic universe.

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I’m guessing most of you watched the sequel trilogy in order. I come from it as a casual fan who has been who loved the original trilogy but was disappointed with the 1997 & 2004 re-release edits and of course Episode I which I skipped class that day in high school. 20 years later, watching The Rise of Skywalker has got me interested again and with the Despecialized and 4K77/4K80/4K83 projects. Now I’m playing to watch the Machete Order with Harmy’s versions with the sequel trilogy!

Frylock: Did you even read the training manual?
Shake: The only thing I read are the zeroes on my paycheck.

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Finally saw the film for myself. Definitely messy. I’m glad I went in knowing not to expect anything spectacular thanks to reading spoilers ahead of time. Tempered expectations, at least.
I must say, this has to be one of the most fast, in your face, full throttle SW film to date, to the point it’s just exhausting. Ironically, this felt like it kept dragging on, especially towards the end.
What I found to be the better aspects was also similarly frustrating. Let’s talk Rey. More specifically, this, THIS Rey was the Rey I wanted in TLJ. She actually struggled and was afraid of what she could become, tip toeing the edge of the darkside without really realizing it. None of that was present in TLJ, and it absolutely should have. She was essentially a non-character that left me as a viewer not sure what to root for, for her, by the end of TLJ. It’s a very strange predicament of a trilogy. The way I see it, TROS did well to carry over story elements from TLJ. You know what it didn’t really carry well from TLJ? Characters. Why? Because there wasn’t much to carry! That was the failure of TLJ and less so TROS. This film had to dig around from TFA to establish character related connections, and in that sense, you could almost watch TROS without TLJ and you don’t really lose much of the emotion. Plot threads, yes.
I loved the mysterious and creepy sith caverns. Nailed the atmosphere. Surprisingly I wasn’t really fond of the Emperor. Not specifically the performance but more so the character… Interpretation? I get it’s been 30 years but I wasn’t sold that this Emperor is an accurate representation of the character. He’s too vain and self-absorbed to give the throne to another, even if blood related. Yeah I guess he did toy with Luke to strike him down but in a way, it was like he knew Vader would stop Luke. In ROTJ, he ultimately wanted a new servant, not exactly someone to replace him. And even if he was old and decrepit, I would find it more in his nature to seek a new servant in order to feed off the servant’s living Force essence like a parasite. This film felt not very Star Wars in this respect.
I’ll say this final thought, as there’s lot more to talk about but it’s late. They realllllyyyy beat a dead horse with the non stop C3PO jokes. Like ESB’s Han, I too wanted to switch off 3PO and relive myself of the waayyy over done gags. Few were amusing but holy shit.

The Rise of Failures

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Regarding the Emperor, I think the implication is that he’s not giving the throne to another, but he would possess whoever would open themselves to the dark side and kill him.