Sign In

The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 328

Author
Time

Yes, looks good. As I suggested, ceremony robes make sense for Coruscant.
For fighting the more generic clothes are fine.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

TL;DR towards the end of the post.

I’ve been stressed out lately and too busy to really type this out, but I finally got some time so I wanted to share some edit thoughts I’ve been having. So just consider this a rambling essay on…

“Saving the Reveal”

It seems like an age old question regarding some prequel edits is if the reveal of Anakin=Vader should be saved, since laypeople will assume they should watch these films in chronological order. Personally, I think the best way to deal with this problem is to tell people to just watch the films in release order. I like that ROTS explores Anakin’s fall, so I never felt it was a mistake to show it in the film. [Alternatively, I think watching ROTS in-between ESB and ROTJ as a sort of a flashback standalone film is also a simple way handle the issue. I think a ROTS edit that removes any references to TPM and AOTC, and keeps contradictions with the OT to a minimum would be a great project as well.] But, for curiosity’s sake, I wanted to brainstorm on ways the prequels can actually be changed to “Save the Reveal”, and see if there’s anything left of the film after all that cutting that would still make it worth watching.

Unfortunately, trying to save the reveal, but keep all three prequels relatively in-tact leaves you very little substance in ROTS, since that film is all about Anakin’s fall. I think many people who have taken the “Save the Reveal” approach have kept Anakin turning to the dark side, but removed him being called “Darth Vader”, and kept his survival ambiguous. While this does work, I think it still has it cons. Mainly, assuming the films are being viewed in chronological order, a layperson would still know Obi-Wan is lying to Luke, and that Luke’s father turned to the dark side. I kind of think this defeats the purpose of wanting to edit the prequels to save that reveal in ESB in the first place. Sure, maybe the audience might think Vader might say ”Obi-Wan killed your father”, like cast and crew, save for a select few, actually thought the twist was back when they made ESB, but I still don’t think the impact would be as hard-hitting as if the audience thought Anakin was actually killed by Darth Vader and Obi-Wan was telling the truth. Again, there are merits to this approach (keeping the bulk of the plot in-tact), but it has its drawbacks (audience still knows Obi-Wan is lying to Luke).

How to make this possible has been discussed ad nauseam on here, especially this thread in particular, but I wanted to take another stab at it just for the hell of it.

A lot of the ideas I’ve seen (and have had myself) have been rather ambitious, with a lot of hypothetical new shots or scenes that would need to be filmed. This idea tries to avoid any of that. I’m going to go over major changes in the three films that would be necessary to make it work.

The Phantom Menace

The biggest thing I think that would need to be changed in Episode I is to have Obi-Wan be a full-fledged Jedi Knight rather than Qui-Gon’s apprentice. Why? Because we want to set up that Maul was Obi-Wan’s first student that fell to the dark side. This would require some major changes to how the Jedi refer to Maul as a “mystery attacker”. Maybe Yoda or a Jedi offscreen can refer to the attacker as “your old Padawan” when speaking to Obi-Wan. Maybe they don’t know who he is until the duel at the end of the film. OS dialogue could be added where Maul calls Obi-Wan his old master (potentially taken from Sam Witwer’s Maul dialogue or have Maul redubbed. If you replaced Sidious’ hologram with Maul in some scenes, you could also add dialogue here where Maul could refer to Obi-Wan as his former master.) So Maul kills Obi-Wan’s friend/potential former master, they have their confrontation, and Obi-Wan knocks his former student down a pit in two pieces, presumably dead.

Does Obi seem a little young to have been a master? Maybe, but I don’t think it is a deal breaker, and I think it could be spun in an interesting way. Obi-Wan confronting his fallen apprentice, and then getting a second chance with Anakin. I would love to hear more ideas about how this could be work.

Attack of the Clones

I think there are a lot of changes that could be made even unrelated to reveal to decrease PT-OT contradictions, like the Skywalker-Lars relationship, but just for this approach I think there are only one or two key points. First, you could make changes throughout the film to make Anakin less creepy and #dark #edgy. Some darkness could be kept so Anakin=Vader makes sense in retrospect, but we don’t want it to be as blatant.

The most important, and radical, idea I have for this is the inclusion of one new scene. At the end of the film, you could insert a truncated version of Vader in the bacta tank from Rogue One. Maybe attached to the end of the “war has begun” scene with Sidious and Dooku, when they leave the hanger, a hooded figure (Sidious), and possibly Dooku, would enter this room. Sidious would look up at the tank and say something along the lines of, “they will be no match for you”, and just as the we start getting a glimpse of this mystery figure, we cut away to the next scene.

So now the viewer would end the film wondering who that person was. At this point, I would want them to think it is Maul, but it is never explicitly stated. I also know many people like the idea of having Dooku being a rogue Jedi rather than a Sith, but I think it would be important to keep that for reasons I’ll mention later.

Revenge of the Sith

So ROTS would start out mostly the same, with the climatic battle of Coruscant and the introduction of the cyborg, General Grievous. Was this the person we saw in the bacta tank?

After Dooku’s death, when Grievous reports to Sidious and Sidious mentions getting a new apprentice, it brings the audience back to wondering if the bacta tank figure actually was Maul.

I think Act 2 of the film could remain pretty in-tact. The last time we see Anakin in ROTS is either the Jedi hangar scene with Windu or the ruminations scene, but we don’t see him leave the Council chambers. The music in the scene where Anakin discovers Plapatine is a Sith could be used to make Anakin’s decision to turn Palpatine over to the Council more like this was his big character moment in the movie. I like the rumination scene, but I’m not sure if keeping it would be too much. I think Anakin still battling with his loyalties and the dark side is still important, but it should seem like Anakin made his decision and he seemingly died for it.

So when we get to the brief march on the Jedi Temple sequence, we will cut the closer up shot of Anakin, and the darken the robes and obscure the hooded face of the figure leading the troopers. I think more changes could be made to the make the figure more ambiguous as well, but this might be enough.

Order 66 happens, yada yada. The entirety of Mustafar would be cut from the film. Because the climatic battle is cut from the film, I would actually recommend keeping the Yoda vs Sidious duel and let that be treated as the big final battle of the film. I know saber-wielding Yoda and Sidious seem to contradict their portrayals in the OT, but I think this sacrifice could be made in order to preserve the reveal and not have the film feel totally incomplete.

My ideas are currently vague regarding how to deal with Obi-Wan and Padme in Act 3 of the film. You could still have Obi-Wan look at the security hologram, but cut it in a way so we can’t see what he is seeing. Obi-Wan asks Yoda to send him to kill the Emperor, but Yoda says he isn’t strong enough. He could end the scene saying, “The boy you trained, gone he is, destroyed by Darth Vader.” I think you would cut the scene of Obi-Wan going to see Padme, and when Yoda fails to defeat the Emperor, have everyone leave Coruscant together on the Tantive III/IV. Maybe you could splice some shots together of Padme and Obi-Wan looking miserable on the ship (taken from when they were sitting in the Padme’s ship in different scenes). At this point, the camera can be on Padme, and Obi-Wan can ask, “Anakin is [was] the father, isn’t he?”. Padme doesn’t answer, then cut back to Obi-Wan rubbing his face. Just an idea, and I’m not 100% solid how you could handle this part of the film.

Eventually they land on Polis Massa, Padme has the babies (or baby, if you are also trying to keep that secret). I think this issue highlights just how it is almost impossible to have satisfying prequels and also save all of these secrets. If you don’t show Padme having a second baby at all, and then it turns out Luke has a twin sister in ROTJ, you’d be like, “What? They never showed Padme having two babies?!”
Alternatively, you could show a second child being born, but they’re never named. You could include the scene of Padme surviving, like in Hal’s ROTS, but it would probably be smart to change music to something other than Leia’s theme.

Another change, while not necessary, that could be helpful, would be to recolor/redub C-3PO and R2-D2 in order to make them different droids. This would alleviate some continuity issues as well as allowing some dialogue to be created that the new protocol droid can say that could help clarify story changes that the edits make.

Summary

TL;DR: So for this idea, there are basically three major edits necessary for preserving the Vader twist:

  1. In TPM, make Maul Obi-Wan’s fallen apprentice.
  2. In AOTC, add a new scene of a mysterious figure in a bacta tank.
  3. In ROTS, cut all scenes of Anakin after he rats out Palpatine, except for the march on the Jedi Temple, where his character would be too obscured to identify.

This might be enough to create ambiguity surrounding who Darth Vader is. We are led to believe Maul survived, sacked the Jedi Temple and killed Anakin. In reality, Maul did die in TPM, the figure in the bacta tank was actually General Grievous, and it was Anakin who really betrayed the Jedi.

I know people in the past have suggested making Darth Vader a title that could be used by multiple characters. Maul could be called Darth Vader, then Anakin takes that title when he becomes his apprentice. You could demonstrate this tradition by having Sidious call Dooku “Darth Tyranus” in AOTC, and after his death in ROTS, Sidious could rename Grievous “Darth Tyranus” during their hologram conversation. Unfortunately you don’t really see how Anakin transforms from man to machine, but maybe this could be something we assume happens after hunting Jedi for two decades.

This was just something I had on my mind during a commute and I wanted to write it out. I personally don’t have a huge desire to see a set of prequels that saves the reveal, but I think it would be cool if fan edits could actually pull it off just to see how it would play out. Like I said, if you have a friend that doesn’t know “Anakin=Vader”, you’re better off just telling to them to watch it in release order. And as I also mentioned, I’ve never tried watching the films in “IV V III VI” order, but I think it has some potential, especially with some slight edits. Plus, it would be a lot less work than trying to pull off a “Save the Reveal” approach. But if anyone has any ideas regarding this saving the reveal approach, it would be interesting to hear them!

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DELETED COMMENT

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

wow RogueLeader! that is a wonderful idea!

jedit: can anyone think of any ways of getting Anakin’s lightsaber to Obi-Wan? maybe he picks it up in the temple? Does Mace confront Palpatine?

i’m a lady who makes things

Author
Time

I didn’t even think about the lightsaber… Maybe that shot where Obi-Wan bends down to look at the dead Jedi, you could add Anakin’s saber on the ground there?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

RogueLeader, I really like what you proposed! It does involve some creative redubbing, but it seems doable (Auralnauts’ videos made good work of it). Keeping the surprise does eliminate some of the more “emotional” parts of III, but I like that it keeps Anakin’s fate ambiguous while also presenting some ambiguity over Vader. There are a few points I’d suggest:

I: You mention the idea of making Obi-Wan a full-fledged knight - I think that you can make the element of doubt work through redubbing the council to hint that they’re aware of Obi-Wan’s failure with “Vader” and are reluctant for him to teach again. Heck, Maul/“Vader” could be evidence that “too old” apprentices go bad. It would be Qui-Gon vouching for his former pupil instead.

II: I’m not sure what exactly you’d cut from the Anakin stuff on Tatooine (easing PT-OT inconsistencies. It would likely depend on what you do with TPM.

III: I would suggest showing Grievous or Palpatine looking at a bacta tank at some point. If it’s clouded enough to hide the person inside it, you can imply that it’s either the apprentice or Grievous’ empty tank. That way, it keeps up the mystery. I like the idea of calling both Dooku and Grievous “Darth Tyranus” and Maul/Anakin “Darth Vader.” It does prove to be an issue with the “Rule of Two,” but removing said rule really isn’t a problem for editing (compared to the redubbing and some visual changes).

Adding Obi-Wan picking up Anakin’s lightsaber while examining the temple ruins could also work to explain how he gets it for IV.

While I do agree that this is far more work than simply changing around some episode numbers on the crawls to make it go ANH-ESB-ROTS (or a three-in-one edit)-ROTJ, it’s still a worthy venture. Good work, RougeLeader!

JEDIT: Perhaps Mace goes to face Palpatine, cutting to Anakin’s flight to the office once we see Palpatine draw his lightsaber. We keep the ruminations scene in, as it’s an important emotional beat.

Author
Time

I think you’re right unfortunately, that cuts out most of the best parts of ROTS.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

BedeHistory731 said:

I: You mention the idea of making Obi-Wan a full-fledged knight - I think that you can make the element of doubt work through redubbing the council to hint that they’re aware of Obi-Wan’s failure with “Vader” and are reluctant for him to teach again. Heck, Maul/“Vader” could be evidence that “too old” apprentices go bad. It would be Qui-Gon vouching for his former pupil instead.

Good thoughts, Bede! I don’t have many specific ideas yet for TPM redubbings, but I think there is a lot of potential for some solid ideas, like you mentioned. I’ll have to rewatch some of those scenes again!

II: I’m not sure what exactly you’d cut from the Anakin stuff on Tatooine (easing PT-OT inconsistencies. It would likely depend on what you do with TPM.

II: It is really hard to change much about TPM to help with the Lars stuff. The simplest idea I have so far is to imply Anakin has made trips back to Tatooine to visit his mother inbetween films. So when they go to Tatooine, they go straight to the Lars homestead. 3PO will immediately recognize Anakin instead of thinking he is a stranger. You then cut all the introductions, and go straight to their conversation at the dinner table. Maybe it would confuse people at first, but I think people could pick up on context that Anakin actually may have gone back and freed his mom like he said, and she married a moisture farmer. Since Anakin might actually have some kind of relationship with Owen and Beru now, Anakin’s line, “These are good people, you’ll be safe with them” actually makes more sense. Maybe this would contradict with the Jedi’s rules of attachment, but I’m sure something could be worked out.

III: I would suggest showing Grievous or Palpatine looking at a bacta tank at some point. If it’s clouded enough to hide the person inside it, you can imply that it’s either the apprentice or Grievous’ empty tank. That way, it keeps up the mystery. I like the idea of calling both Dooku and Grievous “Darth Tyranus” and Maul/Anakin “Darth Vader.” It does prove to be an issue with the “Rule of Two,” but removing said rule really isn’t a problem for editing (compared to the redubbing and some visual changes).

III: Why do you think showing the empty tank preserves the mystery more than just seeing the cloudy silhouette of a figure inside? In my mind you would cut the shots of the tank draining, so we don’t know if the figure is human or alien. Sorry if I misunderstood you!

JEDIT: Perhaps Mace goes to face Palpatine, cutting to Anakin’s flight to the office once we see Palpatine draw his lightsaber. We keep the ruminations scene in, as it’s an important emotional beat.

Are you saying keep Anakin going back to Palpatine’s office? I think it is important that the last place we see Anakin is in the temple.

Thanks for your reply!

Author
Time

Vladius said:

I think you’re right unfortunately, that cuts out most of the best parts of ROTS.

I agree, and like I said, I’m fine with ROTS telling that story, but from a fan-editing perspective, it would be interesting to see if such a thought experiment was actually possible.

Author
Time

Are there any edits of TPM where this scene has been rearranged?:

https://youtu.be/6M2vikp4nK0

Specifically putting Padme’s lines “I’m not sure what’ll happen” at the end? As I was trying this out, it seemed like a no-brainer to end it here instead of with the kind of odd “You miss your mother”.

Not exactly radical, but I feel it helps move things along.

YouTubers!
Attack of the Clones | Alternate Timeline Edit
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
My OLD Return of the Jedi thread. Be gentle.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-3-new-clips/id/7919

Author
Time

Yes! This is so much better. I honestly think the original dialogue makes little sense anyway.

Ani: I care for you too, but I…

Padmé: You miss your mother.

What? You can’t care for one person and miss another person at the same time? It’s just a confusing thing to say.

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

Good thoughts, Bede! I don’t have many specific ideas yet for TPM redubbings, but I think there is a lot of potential for some solid ideas, like you mentioned. I’ll have to rewatch some of those scenes again!

Thanks!

II: It is really hard to change much about TPM to help with the Lars stuff. The simplest idea I have so far is to imply Anakin has made trips back to Tatooine to visit his mother inbetween films. So when they go to Tatooine, they go straight to the Lars homestead. 3PO will immediately recognize Anakin instead of thinking he is a stranger. You then cut all the introductions, and go straight to their conversation at the dinner table. Maybe it would confuse people at first, but I think people could pick up on context that Anakin actually may have gone back and freed his mom like he said, and she married a moisture farmer. Since Anakin might actually have some kind of relationship with Owen and Beru now, Anakin’s line, “These are good people, you’ll be safe with them” actually makes more sense. Maybe this would contradict with the Jedi’s rules of attachment, but I’m sure something could be worked out.

That would totally make sense. It just needs a few line trims to make it work, perhaps an overdubbed explanation during the nighttime scene at Padme’s apartment, when Anakin talks to Obi-Wan about his mother.

III: Why do you think showing the empty tank preserves the mystery more than just seeing the cloudy silhouette of a figure inside? In my mind you would cut the shots of the tank draining, so we don’t know if the figure is human or alien. Sorry if I misunderstood you!

Yeah, my bad. I misinterpreted how much of the body we see in the bacta tank. Still, showing it again in III would be a good way to keep up the mystery.

Are you saying keep Anakin going back to Palpatine’s office? I think it is important that the last place we see Anakin is in the temple.

I was thinking for a moment that implying that Anakin died in the office would be a good idea, but looking back, it’s best that the last time we see him is the ruminations scene. I’m not sure what we would cut to after it, perhaps Cody receiving Order 66?

Thanks for your reply!

You’re welcome! I love what you’ve proposed, despite losing so much of III. I’m a fan of Auralnauts’ videos, so I like a good redub-heavy project. A lot can be done with the extant visual material and new FX shots (since consumer/prosumer-grade material can come close to what the Prequels looked like). It would be a good “chronological order” edit, if one doesn’t do what I’d like to do (Episode I - A New Hope, Episode II - The Empire Strikes Back, Episode III - Labyrinth of Evil (either Hal’s edit or a prequel three-in-one), and Episode IV - Return of the Jedi).

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DELETED COMMENT

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time

i really don’t like how most of your posts are self-promotion, FreezingTNT

i’m a lady who makes things

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

Yes! This is so much better. I honestly think the original dialogue makes little sense anyway.

Ani: I care for you too, but I…

Padmé: You miss your mother.

What? You can’t care for one person and miss another person at the same time? It’s just a confusing thing to say.

Ha yes! That’s another reason I cut it. Although that idea of Anakin missing his mother might be helpful. I know it’s also mentioned in the Jedi Council scene as well…but if one wanted to have that moment here in this scene it could go:

Padme: …a little too warm for my taste.
-Anakin looks down
Padme: You miss your mother
-Anakin looks back up at Padme
-wider shot of Anakin giving Padme the trinket

It might be too jarring visually…going from wide shots to close ups back to wide shots…

YouTubers!
Attack of the Clones | Alternate Timeline Edit
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
My OLD Return of the Jedi thread. Be gentle.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-3-new-clips/id/7919

Author
Time

Honestly I don’t think it is necessary! I don’t think Padmé has to say it for us to know he misses his mother. I think the way you’ve cut it is great as-is.

Author
Time

Thinking back to the “Saving the Reveal” proposal - would it also work if a concealed face (via darkening) and recolored suit Vader still slaughtered the Separatist leaders as done in the movie? Changing the lightsaber’s color to red would help this, as would cutting the shots of Anakin and R2 leaving the ship on Mustafar. It resolves a loose end, while also being a good dramatic beat before Yoda vs. Palpatine.

I’d keep the references to “Lord Vader” in the scenes, which would work well for furthering the idea that this new “Vader” (who may be the old Vader, as we never see his face) is a/still is a serious threat.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I recently watched the deleted scenes of Attack of the Clones. I was shocked at how good they were. It’s like Lucas was sick that day of shooting and the actors got to have emotion. It’s not perfect (in fact most of its cringy) but its far better than the wooden talk of the rest of the film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDPmS7a1UYo

Here’s a rundown of why every scene is so important.

Padme Addresses the Senate: This was replaced with the meeting between the Jedi, Padme, and Palpatine in the office. But this take is far better. It shows us the discontent in the Senate instead of telling. It is clearly explained why someone is trying to kill Padme. In the office scene, Padme just jumps to the conclusion it is Dooku, but here it’s suggested someone more sinister, possibly in the Republic, is involved, which actually sets up a mystery. Last, the scene’s end establishes some clear stakes - Palpatine pushes the debate to the next morning, making Obi-Wan and Anakin’s night watch impactful.

Jed Temple Analysis Room: Explains why Obi-Wan didn’t use the Republic’s resource and instead went to some 50s diner.

The Lost Twenty: A very good scene. This gives us a proper introduction to Count Dooku far earlier, which sets him up as an antagonist. This exposition shows us there is more to Dooku than just some generic villain. And the Jedi Librarian shows genuine emotion!

Anakin’s Nightmare: Shows us Anakin’s frequent nightmares instead of telling about all but one. This makes his trip to Tatooine more understandable.

Obi-Wan and Mace on the Landing Platform: Woah! Mace Windu is likable?

Padme’s Parent’s House: Replaced by the long “palace on a lake” BS we got in AOTC. In this version, they actually try to have chemistry. It feels like Disney Channel, but at least it feels like something! There’s even a point where they intercut Anakin and Padme talking to her father and mother, respectively, about the other. This entire scene shows us the people in the Star Wars galaxy can have emotion. It contrasts heavily with the Jedi, giving us an understanding of Anakin’s inner conflict. I’m baffled as to why it was replaced with “I don’t like sand”.

Padme’s Bedroom: Woah! Padme is likable?

Dooku Interrogates Padme: Woah! Dooku is (almost) likable? Also, the subsequent trial gives us a better understanding as to how the Separatists work and makes them less generic bad guys.

If I ever make an edit for AOTC, I’m bringing in all these scenes, and cutting out some of the pointless action beats.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

Author
Time

I do think AOTC could’ve been quite a bit better had they an additional editor working on it. It was just Lucas and Burtt. I have no proof of this, but I think Paul Martin Smith, editor of TPM, had a larger impact on that film than we may know. I know there are those who feel TPM is the worst…BUT in terms of editing, I feel like TPM is miles above AOTC and ROTS.

YouTubers!
Attack of the Clones | Alternate Timeline Edit
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
My OLD Return of the Jedi thread. Be gentle.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/ROTJ-Fan-O-Matic-3-new-clips/id/7919

Author
Time

I agree that a lot of these scenes are good! Unfortunately I believe that some of them are impossible to successfully integrate into any edits because of their extremely low quality and unfinished effects.

i’m a lady who makes things

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Quality is normal SD / DVD quality, a bit soft but with decent color. I’ve matched the colors and contrast of the extended Naboo arrival, dissolving from the deleted to the theatrical footage and it works well.

I agree that some effects are too rough, like on the Jedi archive. But the essential ones (senate, padme’s house) are decent. Anything that centers AOTC around Padmé will do, since she’s the main character.

Author
Time

Re: the robes recoloring discussion from a bit back, what if Qui-Gon’s robes are brown and black, to mirror Anakin’s? Would be a subtle way to tie the two characters together, and ideally imply more strongly that Anakin has adopted Qui-Gon’s non-traditional and vaguely combative views of the Jedi order.