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The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 264

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 (Edited)

While having Darth Vader building See-throughpio was daft, and having Boba Fett's dad being the clone template was daft, I don't think having a single ship appearing through the saga, changing shape and function as it changes hands is universe shrinkage.

Look at a fine film like The Yellow Rolls-Royce (1964) for inspiration.

It actually expanded the world the story was in by having the single object being the needle by which the generation spanning narrative is sewn.

Similarly Black Beauty (1946) has many stories linked by one horse being passed to different owners. Showing a snap shot of history both urban and rural.

It's pure fan service of that there is no denying but fan-service of a much higher calibre .

You could use it to fix one of the most annoying things about TPM with it too.

The royal yacht could have it's decorative plating removed to be sold to release Anakin's mother from slavery so while she can't be with her son she is no longer property.

That way the evolution of the ship becomes part of the story.

In ROTS the cargo arms could be installed finally defining the shape as being the one we will recognise later but it still has enough luxury to it to appeal to a buyer like Lando.

Come the next film it's had several owners and looks very different.

Come the sequels it's had a few more modifications.

The real universe as we see it isn't encountering new things all the time.

We only see a small portion of the things available to be seen in one lifetime so a fictional universe should be allowed a degree of that (as with R2 and C3P0 and in this case the Falcon... maybe).

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Having the same ship just HAPPEN to fall into the hands of another principal character we meet 30 years later is a lot for a viewer to accept. Especially when they're already stretching their suspension of disbelief enough just from R2 & Threepio being linked to both Anakin and Luke through (mostly) chance.

R2 & C3P0 are a given though. Lucas took inspiration from the 2 peasant characters in The Hidden Fortress. They're the lowliest of the low witnessing epic events unfold. It's nice that the audience has these 2 relatable characters to unify the series even if it's far fetched. Their interactions tell us a lot about the universe for starters, and as the most insignificant beings in the universe - just humble servants doing their jobs, it helps to introduce a viewer to this big scary galaxy and its conflict. We relate to them because as spectators, we are 'fish out of water' in this fantastic and unfamiliar setting and in a way so are they (or at least 3P0 is). Adventure is alien to 3P0 and he's being dragged kicking and screaming into one and we're joining him for the ride. The droids' inclusion is forgivable because of what it achieves.

A ship on the other hand just seems superficial.

The fan service in the PT need to be cut down, not added to. Fan service "of a higher caliber" as you say, is still fan service, and all I can see it accomplishing is challenging the viewer's suspension of disbelief. Just my opinion.

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No more superficial than a Tomb ?:-D

Star Wars isn't reality. It's fable and ripe with symbolism.

The notion of a significant object starting out as a shining royal yacht, changing form and becoming a pirate ship but still fighting the good fight is in-keeping with that milieu in my view, though clearly not in yours.

The Falcon isn't just a ship. She's  as much a character as the Tardis or the Enterprise or Trigger.

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Putting the Millenium Falcon in the PT is the definition of universe shrinkage. I know we're supposed to say that everything they put in the PT was wrong, and everything they didn't put in should have been, but this is one of the things the PT got right.

I assure you if they had found a way to shoe-horn the ship into those films the same people clamoring for it now would be complaining about how it was nonsensical fan service.

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 (Edited)

I think you are over-exaggerating a tad.

It's a Star Wars film so a baton passing motif isn't universe shrinkage it's an object in the fictional universe occupying more than one position in time.

This happens in the real universe.

People buy or come to own objects owned by famous people only for the new owner to also be famous.

As it stands the ship is in the PT only with blue paint scheme and in the background serving no other service than fan service to Easter egg hunters.

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well, my take on "shrinkage" would have been, if we tell a story, that is 1000 years old and we still have the same "characters" - but we have our focus on the Skywalker family, so everything they touch is kind of orbiting around them ...

if one wants a "bigger" universe, just don't tell a "family saga", go BIG and turn the wheel of time back to the origins of Jedi and Sith ;-)

I am ok with a prototype of the Falcon, even if we don't recognize it on first sight.

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Bingowings said:

No more superficial than a Tomb ?:-D

Star Wars isn't reality. It's fable and ripe with symbolism.

The notion of a significant object starting out as a shining royal yacht, changing form and becoming a pirate ship but still fighting the good fight is in-keeping with that milieu in my view, though clearly not in yours.

The Falcon isn't just a ship. She's  as much a character as the Tardis or the Enterprise or Trigger.

yeah, the same discussion, we had about "cowboy-hats" again

some think everything "real" should not be in SW, but it is, just slightly changed, but we have Samurai, Cowboys, Pirates, Knights, Wizards ...

the idea to have an "imperial" ship turn "rogue" is classic, see movies like "Captain Blood" ;-) 

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brimforge said:

 

yeah, the same discussion, we had about "full, unmistakable cowboy outfits" again

 FTFY

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Bingowings said:

I think you are over-exaggerating a tad.

It's a Star Wars film so a baton passing motif isn't universe shrinkage it's an object in the fictional universe occupying more than one position in time.

This happens in the real universe.

People buy or come to own objects owned by famous people only for the new owner to also be famous.

As it stands the ship is in the PT only with blue paint scheme and in the background serving no other service than fan service to Easter egg hunters.

But we already have the 'baton passing motif' in the form of the Skywalker saber. The Falcon is undeniably cool, but it wouldn't be symbolic of a greater legacy being passed down. It's just superficial and fanservicey and I agree with everything DominicCobb said.

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^Yeah I noticed :-D

That's the thing about these ideas threads, some people like the suggestions  some people don't.

I am tempted to a attempt to design a Naboo built Falcon just for jollies but I understand and respect your reservations.

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still the idea to replace the rather shiny royal starship for a more modest ship. is a nice one, even if it isn't the Falcon ;-)

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If the Gungans are all clones (other than love child Jar-Jar) the TPM battle could be the end of the Great Clone War and their gratitude to the Republic and the passing on of their cloning techniques could be the beginning of Clone War 2.

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Bingowings said:

If the Gungans are all clones (other than love child Jar-Jar) the TPM battle could be the end of the Great Clone War and their gratitude to the Republic and the passing on of their cloning techniques could be the beginning of Clone War 2.

 That's great! Ive long been struggling with how to explain the pluralization of clone "wars" and, while I would prefer cutting out gungans entirely, this is on the right track to providing a reasonable explanation. 

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well, that is one way to ship around the missing plots and added stuffing ...

I would rather like to see the first or the "clone war" before Episode 1 to be about Jedi against Sith or better Mandalorians (which could haven been the main threat for the Republic back then)

leaving "Jango" as the last Mandalorian warrior, maybe frozen (in carbonite) or encased in a stasis field, waiting to be revived - to be the prototype for the new republic clone army!

and "Boba" could be the last real "shock trooper", remaining from the (last) Clone War(s) ...

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 (Edited)

Here's an expansion pack on my Gungans as Clones idea.

TPM has many narrative problems.

There are plenty of references to a treaty the Queen must or must not sign but no real specifics.

The Naboo conflict has to fit in a larger galactic canvas and yet none of the major political players are too concerned.

The Chancellor wants to help but his hands are tied, the Senate are prepared to play to the Federation's tune for a while and the Jedi seem more interested in the chosen one and the return of the Sith.

Meanwhile (because of the limits of CGI technology back at the turn of the century) the Gungans look almost the same, no females in the films and seem to have an uneasy relationship with the Naboo.

Scientifically speaking (even space fantasy science) cloning alone is not complicated enough for a galactic republic capable of FTL. There has to be more to it or everyone would have a clone army in much the same way that secretly the Federation have a droid one.

Making the Gungans a clone race could be the Rosetta stone this narrative sorely needs.

Imagine a race of humanoid amphibians that have a natural lifespan of about 20 years.

They could have the capacity for a degree of civilisation but not progress much. There wouldn't be the time to pass on enough knowledge.

If they were discovered by an advanced race that gifted them with the knowledge to not only reproduce via cloning but also the maturation and programmed learning techniques it would cut years of growing and learning out of a Gungan's life. Allowing them to have a full 20 years as an educated adult. They could build cities under the sea and they would venerate their alien benefactors as Gods. Conventional reproduction may be considered taboo and they may banish any hatchling to the surface where they would be denied programmed learning.

The Naboo have for centuries guarded the planet's secret with a small military force so as to not draw too much attention to their role. The Chancellor knows but can't make too much of a noise should the galaxy go into a clone arms race. Some of the Jedi see Naboo as a potential flashpoint and may have access to some of the history of the world and it's alien visitors. But with so much of what the Jedi do and did shrouded in myth not everyone on the council believes the stories. Master Dooku does and when his former pupil is killed he leaves to seek his own answers.

The Gungans are resentful of the Naboo because they feel the Naboo are outsiders keeping them from making colonies on other watery worlds. Even though doing so would make their secret obvious.

The Sith know something of the history of the place too, they place one of their number on Naboo and he elevates himself to the role of Senator for that sector of space. A full on armed attack would proliferate the technology too widely. The chaos would bring down the Republic but building the Empire would be more difficult.

The treaty would transfer guardianship of the planet and allow the holder rights to study Gungan society and learn how they pass on knowledge so quickly. Something Palpatine/Sidious wants for one side of his manufactured Galactic conflict.

He knows if the Feds win he gets the treaty, if the Feds lose the grateful Gungans will give him the technology. This is how the Sith work by engineering situations where they can not lose (until they do).

So TPM would become a war on a planetary scale but of Galactic significance enough to be remembered as the first Clone War.

With the Gungans assistance the Republic make the Clone Armies that will go to war again.

Ergo Obi-Wan and Anakin both fought in The Clone Wars and TPM gets a richer backstory.

Thankfully we have points where this sort of slant on what is seen onscreen can be tweaked.

The crawl can be re-written, the Gungans and the Feds mouths don't sync too much to be a problem with when replacing dialogue. The droids have no mouths. Senators and Jedi could be added to scenes and drop small nuggets of exposition around the PT.

It might work.

As always this is a free idea that anyone can play with adapt or ignore as they like.

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There are real world instances where 'species' have arisen that reproduce parthenogenetically - meaning there are no males and the offspring is essentially a clone of the mother. One weird example is the lizard Cnemidophorus neomexicanus, which is a hybrid of two other lizard species which spontaneously decided it wasn't going to do that whole sex thing either of its parent species did, and instead exclusively produces female clones of itself.

So your ideas aren't all that farfetched and could potentially work well with the Gungans' unique genetics being the key to unlocking the secrets of cloning rather than them actually practicing artificial cloning themselves.

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Their reproductive system being wholly evolved and lacking any technological elements could work well.

Cloning on it's own for a galactic level civilisation would be a bit of a no-brainer so it needn't be connected to Gungans as a narrative component.

I bolted it on so that the Naboo conflict could be called a Clone War (and to give Jar-Jar a slightly better origin story).

The one technological aspect that the Naboo could be guardians of is the Gungan's accelerated learning and growth.

Natural accelerated physical growth is also very plausible (on Earth very few species have childhoods as long as ours) but accelerated learning would be tricky to put down to some sort of biological mechanism.

Unless the Gungans are strong enough in the Force to be born knowledgable. Which would make them an obvious target for Jedi and Sith alike.

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As I was surfing youtube, stumbled upon "Star Wars I-III: A Phantom Edit" by Andrew Kwan (not sure if he has any connection to the old phantom edit)

click here, if you want to check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJA7I_8-14

anyway, watching some of his cutting decisions, leaving some things out or making jumps, gave food for thought:

not really a fan of hard cuts, but the idea to switch scenes, like what was an end point, could easy make an opening => kick off Episode 1 or 2 with Dooku meeting Sidious for example, would open some nice possibilities, from where the story can go ...

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I just saw a few minutes of it and the idea of cutting out the force field door barrier thing worked really well.

It makes that duel pacier and less confusing.

Gods! Why was the dialogue in AOTC is so clunky!

One line stood out for hacking, When Anakin talks about being nervous about not seeing someone for 10 years he could be talking about a planned visit to see his long freed mother.

That makes Anakin feel less creepy about Padme and more human in his relationship to his single parent.

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I love his idea for Naboo being a sunken planet.

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always "WOW!", how a 4 minutes-trailer for a game addon, has more drama and epic than there was in the whole PT ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzq9epS2b1A

so many things, that I would have liked to see used in the PT :-/