logo Sign In

The Pope — Page 3

Author
Time
Post link
All I know is I heard that Ratzinger is 100% against female clergy, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things that groups have been fighting for for years.

My wife, who is Catholic, sees the religion taking several steps backwards as a result of Ratzinger as the new Pope.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
Oh well, Grievious will kidnap him soon.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Post link
I'm waiting to see a bunch of Cardinals armed with large crosses enter Ratzinger's office and say, "you are under arrest for treason!"

"Are you threatening me, Master Cardinal?"
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Bossk
I'm waiting to see a bunch of Cardinals armed with large crosses enter Ratzinger's office and say, "you are under arrest for treason!"

"Are you threatening me, Master Cardinal?"


LOL

Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Bossk
All I know is I heard that Ratzinger is 100% against female clergy, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things that groups have been fighting for for years.

My wife, who is Catholic, sees the religion taking several steps backwards as a result of Ratzinger as the new Pope.


Well...(please keep in mind I have no wish to offend), speaking as an ex-Catholic, I still realize that some things within Christian doctrine are not open to debate, such as the items you listed above (with the possible exception of contraceptives). The rules against those issues are biblical in nature, not dogmatic in nature.

Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: JediSage
Well...(please keep in mind I have no wish to offend), speaking as an ex-Catholic, I still realize that some things within Christian doctrine are not open to debate, such as the items you listed above (with the possible exception of contraceptives). The rules against those issues are biblical in nature, not dogmatic in nature.


Yeah, but how much of the Bible, as it exists now, do you really believe existed when it was originally being passed around in oral tradition? Before the days of Gutenberg's printing press when copies could be mass produced? I feel that so much of the Bible was "created" by ministers and priests who, trying to pass on their own ideals to their flock, "added" bits and pieces as they felt necessary. These changes became "doctrine."

So, sorry, but I put no faith in the belief that people hold that the Bible is 100% correct and should be lived by in its entirety.

I truly do not believe that our Lord would hold prejudice against those that have alternate religious faiths. How could God, who created the Universe, discriminate against people who practiced religions that existed for thousands of years before Christianity? And if you believe in this concept, then you must start to question some of the other things that the Bible states are "bad."
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
I think that is a matter of opinion. Many people have many different interpretation of the Bible.
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Warbler
I think that is a matter of opinion. Many people have many different interpretation of the Bible.


And that is exactly the problem. Which one do you subscribe to? And how can you discount another person who interprets it a different way? That's just sheer ignorance.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Bossk
Quote
Originally posted by: Warbler
I think that is a matter of opinion. Many people have many different interpretation of the Bible.


And that is exactly the problem. Which one do you subscribe to? And how can you discount another person who interprets it a different way? That's just sheer ignorance.


Many Christians of today are too often attempting to pick and choose that which they believe. This leads to the "salad bar" type of Christianity, meaning: "Well I'll take a little bit of heaven, but I don't believe Christianity is the only answer, I believe in the salvation spelled out in the New Testament, but I don't want to accept the rules". They cannot have it both ways. This type of thinking is dangerous from a doctrinal standpoint, as it tends to allow people to equivocate between diametrically opposed religions. For example: Buddhists and Christians: Neither is better, they are both equally valid.

There are new testament manuscripts that date back to well before Guttenberg. The amount of Tacitus and Josephus historical manuscripts is pretty much miniscule compared to NT Greek Manuscripts. There's a mountain of New Testament manuscripts. While yes, there was probably some "wiggle" room that found it's way into the oral Hebrew tradition, it is generally accepted that the majority of the material in the Old Testament was handed down reliably.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
These Christian doctrines may date back to before Gutenberg (1454 AD) and they may even predate the Chinese invention of moveable type (1040 AD), but they don't date back further than year 0. Buddhism, Islam, and several other religions do, however. So all those people are burning in hell? I refuse to believe that.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Bossk
These Christian doctrines may date back to before Gutenberg (1454 AD) and they may even predate the Chinese invention of moveable type (1040 AD), but they don't date back further than year 0. Buddhism, Islam, and several other religions do, however. So all those people are burning in hell? I refuse to believe that.


I did not say they were burning in hell. What I said was that the NT Greek Manuscripts predate Gutenberg and that salad bar Christianity is dangerous.

Actually, there was no year 0...only a year 1 (That's what so many people were arguing about 2k for...the millenium didn't actually start until 01). And...Islam did not begin until around the year 640 AD. Speaking of Islam, the Islamic faith does make a lot of reference to the Judeo-Christian faith, going so far as to mention Christ many times and ascirbing to him divine attributes. I believe the Quran refers to Jewish People and Christians as "People of the Book".

Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
http://www.fried.com/pics/godshop.gif
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Post link
But by believing everything that organized Christianity claims and what the Bible says, then yes, anyone who is not of Christian faith is burning in hell or sitting in limbo (take your pick).

640 AD? Really? I'd've sworn it was around a lot longer than that. I take that part of my statement back. My bad.

I don't know that salad bar religion is necessarily bad. I think having everyone buy into all the same belief patterns is inherently more dangerous. One people, one thought, one way of living. Sounds rather robotic and Nazi to me. I think the Salad Bar theory allows for people to pick a belief system that works best for them. In fact, if you were to read Christopher Moore's "Lamb: the Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal," you'd see that, even though it's a comic farce, he proposes that Christ's development of Christianity revolves around a Salad Bar method chosen from other existing religions including Buddhism among others.

All I think is important is that you believe in God and celebrate him somehow. Doesn't matter how and I truly do not think God cares either. Ironically enough, I know so many people who go to church on a regular basis but somehow think that's all it takes. The other six days of the week are their's to do with as they please and, consequently, they often times come off as some of the most Godless people around. Religion should not be reserved for one day a week.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
For those of you wondering about the Nazi thing with Ratzinger, here is a paragraph taken from a Reuters article...

Quote
But Israelis and Jewish groups praised Benedict, saying he had atoned for his wartime membership -- that he says was enforced -- in Nazi Germany's Hitler Youth by playing a key role in John Paul's efforts toward Jewish-Catholic reconciliation.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Bossk
But by believing everything that organized Christianity claims and what the Bible says, then yes, anyone who is not of Christian faith is burning in hell or sitting in limbo (take your pick).


Speaking as a Christian: Anyone who died after the ministry of Christ is not saved unless they are justified by faith (this doctrine is in conflict with the doctrine of the Catholic church that teaches we are justified by faith and works). That is correct. The bible is unclear about people who have not heard of him or who died before his ministry.

Quote
I don't know that salad bar religion is necessarily bad. I think having everyone buy into all the same belief patterns is inherently more dangerous. One people, one thought, one way of living. Sounds rather robotic and Nazi to me.


If the world were united in practice of the Christian faith, this would be a much better world. However, as a Christian I know that this is not possible because man is inherently evil. My point is that the Christian faith is based upon a finite set of doctrine that has been around for thousands of years. Some people who claim to be believers want to have it both ways. It's kind of like being a member of a fraternal organization: There are those who want all the benefits, but don't want to play by the rules of the club. Should we denounce the officers of the club as being insensitive? Or should we tell the people what the rules are and point out that if they want to be a member, they have to abide by them or face the consequences?

Quote
I think the Salad Bar theory allows for people to pick a belief system that works best for them.


So we're reducing religion to a utilitarian concern? Meaning, whatever allows me to feel good for myself while not imposing any kind of rules or objective standard for my behavior.

Quote
All I think is important is that you believe in God and celebrate him somehow.


Leads to relativism, which teaches us that all beliefs are valid, even when they're in direct contradiction with eachother.

Quote
I know so many people who go to church on a regular basis but somehow think that's all it takes. The other six days of the week are their's to do with as they please and, consequently, they often times come off as some of the most Godless people around. Religion should not be reserved for one day a week.


No argument here. Church attendence is not enough.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
All I know is I heard that Ratzinger is 100% against female clergy, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things that groups have been fighting for for years.


Thank God for that. Homosexuality is not normal, it's a disorder. It's not something to be "proud" of. So are homosexuals automatically evil and guilty of grave sin? Of course not. They're human beings like the rest of us and should be respected as such. It's the actions (like marriage to one another, anal sex, etc.) that make them sinful.

And abortion is MURDER. Somehow, killing innocent human life before they even leave a woman's womb doesn't quite fit in with the Christian beliefs. A woman's right to choose? Heck, she already chose when she had sex in the first place. Makes me sick.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Trooperman
Quote
All I know is I heard that Ratzinger is 100% against female clergy, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things that groups have been fighting for for years.


Thank God for that. Homosexuality is not normal, it's a disorder. It's not something to be "proud" of. So are homosexuals automatically evil and guilty of grave sin? Of course not. They're human beings like the rest of us and should be respected as such. It's the actions (like marriage to one another, anal sex, etc.) that make them sinful.

And abortion is MURDER. Somehow, killing innocent human life before they even leave a woman's womb doesn't quite fit in with the Christian beliefs. A woman's right to choose? Heck, she already chose when she had sex in the first place. Makes me sick.


Abortion can never be defended. There's not a legitimate scientist on the planet who will say life does not begin at conception. From the time the child is conceived for the rest of his/her life, the child has DNA code that is completely different from the mother.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Trooperman
Quote
All I know is I heard that Ratzinger is 100% against female clergy, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things that groups have been fighting for for years.


Thank God for that. Homosexuality is not normal, it's a disorder. It's not something to be "proud" of. So are homosexuals automatically evil and guilty of grave sin? Of course not. They're human beings like the rest of us and should be respected as such. It's the actions (like marriage to one another, anal sex, etc.) that make them sinful.

And abortion is MURDER. Somehow, killing innocent human life before they even leave a woman's womb doesn't quite fit in with the Christian beliefs. A woman's right to choose? Heck, she already chose when she had sex in the first place. Makes me sick.


According to the homosexual part: hahaha that was a very funny impression of a XIX century man speaking... wow... almost foolled me...

About the abortion thing: I agree 100%. But not based on any religion, it's wrong because it's the most selfish, stupid act a mother can do, kill their own child because she can't keep her legs closed together for 5 minutes.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Post link
Could someone please tell me what the big problem is with women becoming Priests? I don't get it. It just smacks of sexism.
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Bossk
Quote
Originally posted by: Warbler
I think that is a matter of opinion. Many people have many different interpretation of the Bible.


And that is exactly the problem. Which one do you subscribe to? And how can you discount another person who interprets it a different way? That's just sheer ignorance.


Bossk I wasn't replying to your statement, was replying to this statement from JediSage:

Quote
Originally posted by: JediSage


Well...(please keep in mind I have no wish to offend), speaking as an ex-Catholic, I still realize that some things within Christian doctrine are not open to debate, such as the items you listed above (with the possible exception of contraceptives). The rules against those issues are biblical in nature, not dogmatic in nature.


Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Trooperman
Quote
All I know is I heard that Ratzinger is 100% against female clergy, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things that groups have been fighting for for years.


Thank God for that. Homosexuality is not normal, it's a disorder. It's not something to be "proud" of. So are homosexuals automatically evil and guilty of grave sin? Of course not. They're human beings like the rest of us and should be respected as such. It's the actions (like marriage to one another, anal sex, etc.) that make them sinful.

And abortion is MURDER. Somehow, killing innocent human life before they even leave a woman's womb doesn't quite fit in with the Christian beliefs. A woman's right to choose? Heck, she already chose when she had sex in the first place. Makes me sick.

In total agreement on abortion and homosexuality.

But while I can see where they're coming from with the anti-women clergy, I don't think it should be a "rule." People can have their opinions sure, but that doesn't make it the law of God, even if the people with those opinions hold high postions in the clergy. So, like Warbler, I would welcome an in-depth explanation.

As for contraceptives, I take it this is going by the verse about God knowing you since *before* you were in your mother's womb. That raises a very interesting topic; are contraceptives on par with abortion in preventign would-be babies from being born?
Author
Time
Post link
I think contraceptives are different than abortion. Contraceptives prevent the sperm cell from meeting the egg cell. Abortion kills the fetus.
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Bossk
All I think is important is that you believe in God and celebrate him somehow. Doesn't matter how and I truly do not think God cares either.


This is my view also.

War does not make one great.

Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Quote
Originally posted by: Trooperman
Quote
All I know is I heard that Ratzinger is 100% against female clergy, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and many other things that groups have been fighting for for years.


Quote
But while I can see where they're coming from with the anti-women clergy, I don't think it should be a "rule." People can have their opinions sure, but that doesn't make it the law of God, even if the people with those opinions hold high postions in the clergy. So, like Warbler, I would welcome an in-depth explanation.


This is a doctrine spelled out in the New Testament (Titus 1:5-7 KJV, which I've just realized is also a prime argument against homosexuals serving in the clergy). If it had been written in the Old Testament, there may have been some wiggle room given that Christians are no longer under Mosaic law. However there isn't. And before you start talking about which bible is correct, etc: This doctrine was handed down in Greek NT manuscripts predating the printing press. This is not a matter of sexism, this goes to what I was discussing before: If you don't like the rules you don't have to join the club. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything against their will. The issues stated above are beyond debate for Christians, and those that do strive for these changes within the churches are grossly ill-informed about the faith they profess. People need to realize their church is not a democracy. Some Reformed (by Reformed I mean non-Catholic Christian) churches give their laity significant power in oversight on church finances and control, yes, however all issues of doctrine are derived from the bible. Any pastor that deviates from it can and should be removed.

Quote
As for contraceptives, I take it this is going by the verse about God knowing you since *before* you were in your mother's womb. That raises a very interesting topic; are contraceptives on par with abortion in preventign would-be babies from being born?


This is an interesting point....one that I've not considered before. I was on the fence about this, given that I believed that there was no biblical basis against contraceptives. However this may change things for me.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Okay, everyone. Before you all start to come off as 100% ignorant by claiming that the only reason for abortion is because a woman "can't keep her legs closed" (God, I hope your girlfriend read that), consider RAPE.

Why should a woman be forced to deliver a baby when she was raped? Are you that blatantly ignorant? If your wife, girlfriend, sister, daughter, etc., was raped and became pregnant as a result, would your views stay the same? And think before you answer. Don't just spout out biblical doctrine. THINK about if it actually happened to you. She didn't ask for it, she wasn't ready for it; but it happened. Will you welcome the new baby as your own or as your nephew/niece, grandchild, etc., knowing that s/he was the result of rape, one of the worst things that can happen to a woman?

YIYF, good to see someone who can think on their own.

Warbler, sorry about that. Thought the comment was for me.

I've done a good job of avoiding controversy for quite a while on this board and now I see why. I hate this crap that starts up. I'm done. Thread closed for me.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com