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The New Generation of Star Wars Fans — Page 4

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I think Ben actually lives in a cave according to the original film's novelization.

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One could argue he must have had a natural source of water nearby. (The sandpeople must have wells.) A vaporator and smoke coming out of the chimney is way too much advertising for a Jedi supposedly in hiding.

Ben's hovel outwardly looks like an abandoned structure in the original, which makes more sense.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

One could argue he must have had a natural source of water nearby. (The sandpeople must have wells.) A vaporator and smoke coming out of the chimney is way too much advertising for a Jedi supposedly in hiding.

If he wanted to literally hide, he would go on a jungle planet where he could live in a bush.

However on Tatooine he had to became an average nobody. And an average nobody on Tatooine usually farm moisture. A perfect way to blend in and not cause suspicion. He could try to avoid civilisation for the most part but at some point he had to go to local shop and buy grocery. Living like a caveman would cause far more suspicion than being like the rest of the farmers.

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Yes, but he had to keep an eye on Luke, although at a distance, since Owen apparently has a gaffi stick up his exhaust port.

Of course he has to buy supplies once in a while. Every "strange old hermit" does. Part and parcel of the hermit facade is you don't socialize much, and you sure don't want people coming by your house for a chat.

Farmers are more social, at least on this planet.

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SilverWook said:

Ben's hovel outwardly looks like an abandoned structure in the original, which makes more sense.

Well it looks exactly what it was. A combination of some abandoned house, bad cinematography and no set design.

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Are you implying Star Wars is poorly photographed?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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SilverWook said:

Are you implying Star Wars is poorly photographed?

I was very clear. I was talking about that particular shot which is bad, to say the least.

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From an architectural standpoint, the barrel vault of the original exterior more closely matches the interior, at least for one of the vaults. However the second vault is unaccounted for, perhaps walled off in the interior.

The domed roof of the new house in no way approximates the ceiling of the interior.

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You can visit the actual building Ben lived in before it was changed to make Star Wars more awesomer.

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The shape of that house really reminds me of the plastic packaging found inside cookie boxes.

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Ironically, Hasbro's attempt at the Lar's homestead appears to be made out of the same plastic as cookie trays.

Didn't ILM actually use cookie trays in detailing certain miniatures?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I think Ben actually lives in a cave according to the original film's novelization.

I believe that was the original intent for the film, actually--there was some talk about building a giant three-story cave set. But it cost too much and was replaced with a simple house.

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imperialscum said:

And your example does not properly encapsulate the given SW situation since in your example there is a complete change of the main topic of photos. 

My point exactly.

In case of Tatooine, the main topic remains the same;

It doesn't remain the same, because it doesn't convey the message. Which is why the example does properly encapsulate the situation.

Tatooine is physically inhospitable place. 

It is what it's set up as. The pretty SE shots don't set it up as an inhospitable place.

The degree of visual pleasantness has no effect on the main topic.

The degree of visual pleasantness has a huge effect here  :)

In SW Tatooine is physically desolate and harsh place... i.e. desert. Yet the desert is on many occasions visually beautiful place. So distorting the visual reality (intentionally of unintentionally) to additionally and unnecessarily emphasis the physical inhospitality is just dumb.

I've already addressed this. Preconceptions don't matter. I disagree, in other words.

Let me put it like this. You have a character who has a very unpleasant personality. Does that mean you have cast someone visually unpleasant (i.e. ugly) to play that character?

Huh? In the case of an environment all you have are the visuals cues. In the case of a character you've got much more to work with, not just the way the character looks. It's not analogous.

It's like all of those parts in the PT where Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker talk about however many times they've saved each other's lives to give the viewer the impression they're bros, yet all you see is how they really don't seem to like each other. Or how Anakin Skywalker is supposed to be the good guy who turns to the dark side when he's clearly written as a bad guy with no arc. It doesn't work, needless to say. No matter how much you talk up how harsh a place Tatooine is (while showing the exact opposite thing - yes, I'm not conceding: it is important) you won't convey this message. Preconceptions I've already talked about.

Long story short: I'd say making Tatooine pretty is like creating a character who is supposed to be one thing - let's say a bad guy for the sake of argument -  but who doesn't display any traits or doesn't do anything (the personality thing you mentioned) which would make him seem like he's the bad guy.

We will never agree on this :P

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I got a lotta hope about the Next Generation. Look at merchandise. I was at Disneyland, and during the entire trips saw two pieces of PT merch. LEGO Star Wars shwag is almost totally OT. Angry Birds Star Wars merch is almost totally OT. Fisher Price Star Wars merch is heavily OT. In all of these cases I'll add "with the notable exeption of Darth Maul."

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TheBoost said:

I got a lotta hope about the Next Generation. Look at merchandise. I was at Disneyland, and during the entire trips saw two pieces of PT merch. LEGO Star Wars shwag is almost totally OT. Angry Birds Star Wars merch is almost totally OT. Fisher Price Star Wars merch is heavily OT. In all of these cases I'll add "with the notable exeption of Darth Maul."

People complain that Maul should have been the villain throughout the PT, but if he was, Lucas would have totally mishandled him. "Killing" Maul in Episode 1 was the best thing that could have happened to the character.

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NeverarGreat said:

TheBoost said:

I got a lotta hope about the Next Generation. Look at merchandise. I was at Disneyland, and during the entire trips saw two pieces of PT merch. LEGO Star Wars shwag is almost totally OT. Angry Birds Star Wars merch is almost totally OT. Fisher Price Star Wars merch is heavily OT. In all of these cases I'll add "with the notable exeption of Darth Maul."

People complain that Maul should have been the villain throughout the PT, but if he was, Lucas would have totally mishandled him. "Killing" Maul in Episode 1 was the best thing that could have happened to the character.

It's almost like an oxymoron, yet it's completely accurate.  Maul's introduction was handled relatively well in TPM.  He was mysterious, a badass, and the visual embodiment of his role.  But if George decided to extend his role into AOTC and ROTS, he would have stripped away the mystery and come up with equally contrived plot elements as are already present in those films.

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Arguably, this is what has happened with Maul on The Clone Wars.

I think part of the problem is neither follow up villain was as compelling as Maul. The mystery about Dooku's true allegiance didn't last very long.

One of the animatics for ROTS make Grievous appear to be Maul reborn as a cyborg, but I've no idea if that was a idea Lucas was considering or the animators having fun with it.

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SilverWook said:

One of the animatics for ROTS make Grievous appear to be Maul reborn as a cyborg, but I've no idea if that was a idea Lucas was considering or the animators having fun with it.

I was surprised that Grevious wasn't Maul.

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Humby said:

NeverarGreat said:

TheBoost said:

I got a lotta hope about the Next Generation. Look at merchandise. I was at Disneyland, and during the entire trips saw two pieces of PT merch. LEGO Star Wars shwag is almost totally OT. Angry Birds Star Wars merch is almost totally OT. Fisher Price Star Wars merch is heavily OT. In all of these cases I'll add "with the notable exeption of Darth Maul."

People complain that Maul should have been the villain throughout the PT, but if he was, Lucas would have totally mishandled him. "Killing" Maul in Episode 1 was the best thing that could have happened to the character.

It's almost like an oxymoron, yet it's completely accurate.  Maul's introduction was handled relatively well in TPM.  He was mysterious, a badass, and the visual embodiment of his role.  But if George decided to extend his role into AOTC and ROTS, he would have stripped away the mystery and come up with equally contrived plot elements as are already present in those films.

 You mean exactly like how every EU and PT appearance of Boba Christ Fett makes him lamer and lamer?

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NeverarGreat said:

TheBoost said:

I got a lotta hope about the Next Generation. Look at merchandise. I was at Disneyland, and during the entire trips saw two pieces of PT merch. LEGO Star Wars shwag is almost totally OT. Angry Birds Star Wars merch is almost totally OT. Fisher Price Star Wars merch is heavily OT. In all of these cases I'll add "with the notable exeption of Darth Maul."

People complain that Maul should have been the villain throughout the PT, but if he was, Lucas would have totally mishandled him. "Killing" Maul in Episode 1 was the best thing that could have happened to the character.

 I don't think Lucas would have mishandled him. ANYTHING other than looking awesome, flipping, killing and dying would have ruined him.

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TheBoost said:

 I don't think Lucas would have mishandled him. ANYTHING other than looking awesome, flipping, killing and dying would have ruined him.

 I think he looked like he was wearing 'MC Hammer' style pantaloons and flipped around like he was an acrobat in a circus.

^ Darth Maul on his first summer job before he got the tatts.

The only thing that was cool about Maul was the voice and there was precious little of that in TPM. There was probably more in the TV spots and trailers than in the actual film. I'd have liked Dooku to have been in all 3 which would have at least given the PT some kind of symmetry and emotional resonance.

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I would have liked Dooku to have had something along the lines of actual characterization. Some redeemable qualities befitting a once noble Jedi-turned-darksider would have been nice as well.

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m_s0 said:

Long story short: I'd say making Tatooine pretty is like creating a character who is supposed to be one thing - let's say a bad guy for the sake of argument -  but who doesn't display any traits or doesn't do anything (the personality thing you mentioned) which would make him seem like he's the bad guy.

No. That analogy is completely wrong. A proper analogy would be having a character who displays the same personality traits, but in one version he is good-looking and in the other he is not-so-good-looking.

Let's take the Ben's house shot for example. SE shot presents Ben's house just as pathetic and poor as the original shot does. The difference is that in the original version it is an awful close-up shot that captures nothing but one wall of the house. On the other hand, SE shot additionally includes the natural environment. Therefore the two shots relay identical main information (poor house), while SE additionally relays information about natural environment (which is as it is, despite the human poverty).

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imperialscum said:

msycamore said:

imperialscum said:

While I appreciate the original versions and I support the struggle to get them released in HD, I just prefer 1997. I am very sensitive to visual aspects and quite frankly most of the original Tatooine scenes in ANH are unsatisfactory and below my standards.

That's some pretty high standards you got there.

Well a shot like this just doesn't inspire any of the magical feeling I got from 1997 SE counterpart.

My comment was of course in jest... I get what you're saying but in my mind if you are indeed sensitive to visual aspects in films, how can you possibly NOT be sensitive to the visual aspects in the 1997 version of Star Wars, IMO it's the prime example of an uneven product. Do you seriously dislike the minor transitional shots from the Jundland Wastes to Death Star to Mos Eisley in the original film and somehow are able to be pleased with the cartoony crap in the SE?

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msycamore said:

Do you seriously dislike the minor transitional shots from the Jundland Wastes to Death Star to Mos Eisley in the original film and somehow are able to be pleased with the cartoony crap in the SE?

Yes.

For example, (to my knowledge) the new Ben's house shot uses a combination of model and matte painting which is the same technique extensively used in the original versions. So it looks just as "cartoony" as many similar original versions shots.

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