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The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga" — Page 4

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Pretending taste is quantifyable just shows how much one has to learn about life.



Hey Gomer, now you're just blatantly plagiarizing my previous posts in this thread.

You are such a Rod Racer man!

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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Thanks, I do try.
Your focus determines your reality.
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No, I'm hitting on you hard core.
Your focus determines your reality.
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GoMer, Jumpman, and JediRandy, what you don't understand is not everyone hates the PT movies, but in the same vein, not everyone loves them either, just like millions of movies that have ever come out. I know so many fans that either think the PT movies range from bad to OK, to alright, to pretty good, but not one person I know thinks they are better than the OT movies. Now of course there will be some audience that loves the PT movies, there is for every movie, but they will be a niche fanbase of fans who truly love it.

You guys constantly think anyone who bad mouths these movies are bashers, and there is a difference. Some fans here truly hate the PT, and have probably hated it from day right after TPM. Then there are many fans who enjoy the PT because it is SW, nothing more nothing less. If it was another SciFi/Fantasy Trilogy, we probably would have watched it once, and said it was OK and moved on. But EVERYONE of us here tried to love it 1-6, or atleast I know I tried. I bought ROTS last November hoping something would all of the sudden change, I would suddenly love the PT as much as the OT, and bam it would be 6 movies that would blend seamlessly like the OT.

As I stated last night, it isn't a linear story and that is why so many fans can watch the OT seamlessly but can't watch the PT/OT. And it just isn't about quality for many fans, cause ROTJ is the weak link of the OT, but I have no problem watching it as the closing part of the trilogy, cause the story is consistent as a whole, Luke is the main character, Han & Leia are 1a characters, and Vader/Luke is the subplot story along with Yoda/Kenobi.

The PT is mainly about Anakin, a character study, and the minor plot points are the macro stuff we all wanted to see: The creation of the Empire, The Jedi Council, The Clone Wars, etc. The problem with many OT fans that think the PT is alright, is that they don't love or feel compelled towards Anakins story, as to the PT fans who love that story and want more of it in the OT. OT fans want to see the macro stuff in the PT, and that is a minor story to Anakins. PT fans want to see more Vaders story in the OT, and that is minor to the story of Luke, Leia, and Han. That is why it is so hard to blend these movies and enjoy them 1-6, it isn't totally about quality, it is more that two stories interject, and only Lucas recognizes one as the main story now: Anakins.

Now I constantly hear that OT fans can't let the PT go and can't stop talking about it years after the movies have been released. I have been asked by many people, if you don't love them, move on! The reason why every OT fan is still in some way talking about the PT is because the OT movies, in whatever way each of us feel were changed in some way to complement the PT. Because of the PT, we get a half assed release of the O-OT on DVD, and if the PT were never made, we would definitely have a nice O-OT DVD Boxset. If the PT were never made, I wouldn't have to watch Hayden in ROTJ, and see Jar Jar celebrating too, that is the PT inflicting the OT movies now. If Lucas would have never touched the OT movies, you would only have a small minority of complainers about the PT, but for now, the PT has definitely affected my enjoyment of the O-OT movies, cause I still can't watch them in top notch quality 9 years after DVD's inception, and that is something that still annoys me: If I want great quality on a DVD, I have to see Hayden at the end of ROTJ.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
No, I'm hitting on you hard core.




Good because that wasn't a cookie crumb if you catch my drift!

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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Sweet!

*Into a Mr Microphone* : Hey, good lookin, I'll be back to pick you up later.
Originally posted by: CO
GoMer, Jumpman, and JediRandy, what you don't understand is not everyone hates the PT movies, but in the same vein, not everyone loves them either, just like millions of movies that have ever come out. I know so many fans that either think the PT movies range from bad to OK, to alright, to pretty good, but not one person I know thinks they are better than the OT movies. Now of course there will be some audience that loves the PT movies, there is for every movie, but they will be a niche fanbase of fans who truly love it.

You guys constantly think anyone who bad mouths these movies are bashers, and there is a difference. Some fans here truly hate the PT, and have probably hated it from day right after TPM. Then there are many fans who enjoy the PT because it is SW, nothing more nothing less. If it was another SciFi/Fantasy Trilogy, we probably would have watched it once, and said it was OK and moved on. But EVERYONE of us here tried to love it 1-6, or atleast I know I tried. I bought ROTS last November hoping something would all of the sudden change, I would suddenly love the PT as much as the OT, and bam it would be 6 movies that would blend seamlessly like the OT.

As I stated last night, it isn't a linear story and that is why so many fans can watch the OT seamlessly but can't watch the PT/OT. And it just isn't about quality for many fans, cause ROTJ is the weak link of the OT, but I have no problem watching it as the closing part of the trilogy, cause the story is consistent as a whole, Luke is the main character, Han & Leia are 1a characters, and Vader/Luke is the subplot story along with Yoda/Kenobi.

The PT is mainly about Anakin, a character study, and the minor plot points are the macro stuff we all wanted to see: The creation of the Empire, The Jedi Council, The Clone Wars, etc. The problem with many OT fans that think the PT is alright, is that they don't love or feel compelled towards Anakins story, as to the PT fans who love that story and want more of it in the OT. OT fans want to see the macro stuff in the PT, and that is a minor story to Anakins. PT fans want to see more Vaders story in the OT, and that is minor to the story of Luke, Leia, and Han. That is why it is so hard to blend these movies and enjoy them 1-6, it isn't totally about quality, it is more that two stories interject, and only Lucas recognizes one as the main story now: Anakins.

Now I constantly hear that OT fans can't let the PT go and can't stop talking about it years after the movies have been released. I have been asked by many people, if you don't love them, move on! The reason why every OT fan is still in some way talking about the PT is because the OT movies, in whatever way each of us feel were changed in some way to complement the PT. Because of the PT, we get a half assed release of the O-OT on DVD, and if the PT were never made, we would definitely have a nice O-OT DVD Boxset. If the PT were never made, I wouldn't have to watch Hayden in ROTJ, and see Jar Jar celebrating too, that is the PT inflicting the OT movies now. If Lucas would have never touched the OT movies, you would only have a small minority of complainers about the PT, but for now, the PT has definitely affected my enjoyment of the O-OT movies, cause I still can't watch them in top notch quality 9 years after DVD's inception, and that is something that still annoys me: If I want great quality on a DVD, I have to see Hayden at the end of ROTJ.
Do you even read my posts? Or are you just going to lump me in with everyone else on the opposing side to your stance?
Your focus determines your reality.
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I know you're not talking to me Gomer, but I have to admit - I usually don't read your posts. I mainly read my own posts exclusively, I shit you not.... and I think to myself "Jesus I do good work."

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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That possibility had occured to me actually.
Your focus determines your reality.
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If you gentlemen hate the Prequels this much, why start a thread in this forum about it?


I'm not a PT hater, but there are other, larger SW forums where anything negative about the PT=ban.

Want to book yourself or a guest on THE VFP Show? PM me!

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I think that, when it comes down to it, my analysis of the PT isahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
ROD RACE!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

No, seriously, I can accept the fact that Luca$h made a different PT to the one I wanted. Fair enough. I've come to terms with that. What still pisses me off is that the movies look like a fashion shoot from a glossy "laydeez" magazine and the acting standard is about what you'd expect from fashion models. The dialogue was underwhelming to start with, so it was rendered positively torturous by Hayden's "My First Acting Kit" performance (I'm angreee!!... Grrrr!!). Not to mention that irritating stage-school brat Lloyd. Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson do their best with what they get. Samuel L Jackson and Ian McDiarmid gave up entirely and decided to gorge themselves on pork and dairy products. The production design is all over the place (a DINER!! No doubt the Force had something to do with it. Fucking Force...).

I'm the first to admit that the OOT are not masterpieces of cinema. But the PT wasn't as well made and it's a damn sight less fun. And Hamill, for all his detractors, could act Hayden off the screen...

Oh, and Rick McCallum.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I thought that the performances across the board ranged from really great to good enough. I thought Hayden and Mark were actually pretty level. I used to say if Hayden had acted any better, I'd never believe his character father's Mark Hammil's character.

And to slight Ian McDiarmid's role in the prequels is to baffle me to no end. I thought he had one of the best performances in the entire saga.
Your focus determines your reality.
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How was the production design all over the place? It's just different from the production design of the Original Trilogy which mainly consists of a ship corridor, another ship corridor, large, claustrophic rooms, another corridor, maybe go outside once in a while, and then finally another ship corridor.....

And this is coming from a guy who thinks that they're hasn't been a set of films to match the Original Trilogy yet...and that includes the Rings Trilogy.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I don't dislike the PT. I think it's entertaining. Some parts are even great. However, some parts are completely cringeworthy. Revenge of the Sith made me laugh at the deaths of children, which means that something was horribly wrong with that scene. You are laughing at the deaths of children, and it's the "scene" that's wrong? I have to say I was in tears for that bit. It hit me really hard when he ignighted his saber on opening night. Every time since I can try to hold it back for that scene, but in the next one when Padme breaks down I always lose it still.

Yes, because if the scene had been executed effectively, it wouldn't have come off as comedic. I admit that the parts you mentioned are pretty good, but as soon as they start mourning the loss of "younglings", I can't help but bust a gut every single time. The most ridiculous word in the world, and every time I heard Ewan McGregor say it, it sounds like he's having trouble spewing out that piece of dialogue.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
But I find the movies enjoyable enough. I didn't, however, ever think that we were "supposed" to watch them in numerical order. That thought never entered my mind, and I can't believe that's the view that George is trying to press. For me it was the way he numbered them that clued me into that prospect.

Ha ha. He wanted to number the first movie Episode IV, so it would feel like you were coming in in the middle of a Saturday matinee serial, not because he had plans for other movies to come before it. So when he did get that idea, what other logical conclusion could you come to besides naming earlier stories I, II, and III" So you can see why the numbering alone wouldn't convince me that they're intended to be watched in numerical order.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Once again, if he'd wanted them to be watched that way, he would have made them that way.
According to Lucas, he made them out of order for a couple of reasons. 1) He figured the ANH part of the story was the most straightforward for an audience. 2) He felt he could pull off the 2nd half of the story easier because it all takes place away from the center of the universe, so he wouldn't have to render something as ambitious as Couruscant.


No, he made them "out of order" because that's the only story there was. What little prequel stuff there was was simply backstory in order for him to have a history for the characters he was writing for.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The 6 part tragedy (when, in reality, it doesn't even fit the classification of a tragedy to begin with) of Anakin Skywalker just doesn't fly. The PT is Anakin's story. But the OT is Luke's story. It always was. And saying it's not doesn't change anything.
The whole saga is Anakin's story, but I agree the classic trilogy is still primarily Luke's story with a cameo by Anakin in the end when he finaly "returns".


No, the whole saga is not Anakin's story. That doesn't make any sense. That would be like saying that The Winter's Tale is simply Hermione's story. If there must be a saga, it is shared by Luke and Anakin, but the whole thing by any stretch of the literary imagination, is not belonging to Anakin. He might be the Macguffin, but he's not the main character.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I guess the reason I didn't find Lucas' depiction of slaughtered kids "funny" was because I did't think younglings was such an outlandish thing for the Jedi to call their youngest learners.

Lucas originaly did number episode 4 the way he did to make it like you were coming in on the middle. But still he was looking at it as the 4th part of the story, even if he wasn't always sure he'd get around to making the prequels. And according to Lucas, he says that part of the reason he chose the ANH story to do first, was because it was the most straight forward and easiest to pull off considering the scope of the locations they would need to produce.

The whole saga together is Anakin's story. Luke is a big part of that story, but the overall story being told is Anakin's.

Luke does the right thing by throwing down his saber, but if it wasn't for Anakin, he would have fried like a port sausage.


Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by:Go-Mer-Tonic
Lucas originaly did number episode 4 the way he did to make it like you were coming in on the middle. But still he was looking at it as the 4rth part of the story, even if he wasn't always sure he'd get around to making the prequels. And according to Lucas, he says that part of the reason he chose the ANH story to do first, was because it was the most straight forward and easiest to pull off considering the scope of the locations they would need to produce..


I disagree, Lucas never supposedly started in the middle of the story, he just started with the story he was writing. I believe him when he wrote out all these notes and it was too big for one movie, but there is no way he even had a trilogy in mind when writing SW, cause ROTJ is so much a retread of ANH.

The PT was never part of the story, all Lucas did is write backstory notes where certain characters came from, and how the Empire took over, more a rough rough rough draft. Simple things like ObiWan & Vader fight over a lava pit, ect. Nothing specific, just more general things to flesh out the story. But I believe Lucas has no intention of ever doing a backstory in 1977, until SW became a phenomenon, and that is when he started talking about 12, 9, and then 6 episodes, it was more of just 'where can I take this saga now.'

I believe that Lucas wrote the notes for SW in 1977, and many ideas from ESB were left off, and when he wrote ESB, he had all these great ideas, and that is why the movie is so different, it is essentially all the other things he had thought up in the 1970's. By ROTJ, he had to think up all new stuff from his original notes, and that is why you see so much stuff that isn't original.

The PT, was just Lucas winging it for 3 movies with some basic notes he had back in the 1970's, but as you can see, he was developing the story of the PT as he was filming each movies, so nothing other then a couple of plot points were really planned before 1999.

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"Yes, because if the scene had been executed effectively, it wouldn't have come off as comedic. I admit that the parts you mentioned are pretty good, but as soon as they start mourning the loss of "younglings", I can't help but bust a gut every single time. The most ridiculous word in the world, and every time I heard Ewan McGregor say it, it sounds like he's having trouble spewing out that piece of dialogue."

Probably since there's already a perfectly serviceable word for the characters being described, that is, "children." There was no need to invent a neologism to communicate a universally-understood notion. The -ling suffix was also an odd choice. If the word was used only by Yoda, that'd be okay, he's a 900-year-old alien who never quite mastered English. But hearing it from Obi-wan and Padme is kind of strange.

I didn't feel for the poor dead younglings, but not for linguistic reasons. The PT turned me off on the Jedi so much I felt the purge was more of a mild overreaction than the holocaust I'd imagined. You know how you read about a government shooting or crackdown on some troublesome group, and you think, "Well, obviously their civil rights were violated, but they were kind of asking for it?" Yeah, that's the Jedi.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Go-Mer,

CO's right. Episode IV was only meant to mimic the Saturday serial's he loved. He never really had anything but a backstory outline for the Prequels, just to give weight and context to the Original Trilogy.

He did mention that if he ever would go back and tell the backstory that they would be different in tone and style. But, he didn't have it all planned out. He had the highlights in outline form as CO said. But, there are hints in his outlines and drafts for the Original Star Wars of what the Prequels could shape up to be like if he made them. The biggest hint was the Prologue to the original Star Wars novel.

Still, I think you and I, are the only ones at the moment who believe that he made it work quite well, even if he didn't have it all planned out to the letter.

And what's this issue about the word youngling? It's just a word.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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The Jedi's biggest problem was overconfidence in the force, and their stubborness (sp). They were unwilling to change their tactics and it cost them severily. Also, I still don't understand the problem with word "youngling" either.


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Originally posted by: Scruffy
...there's already a perfectly serviceable word for the characters being described, that is, "children."...


To that point, in AOTC Anakin says, recounting his slaughter of the Tuskens: "...the women and children too!" Why not "younglings" here? Not that I want more of the Y-word, but at least there would be consistency.

I'm already cringing at the upcoming SE "repair":

"The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any younglings, they would be a threat to him."

Want to book yourself or a guest on THE VFP Show? PM me!

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Younglings is the word the Jedi use to identify the children. What's the big deal? It's just a word they use.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Yeah, but it's a silly-sounding word and makes any attempt at a serious dialogue with it nearly impossible. "But there are lots of words that sound weird to us, Gaffer, because it's a fantasy. You just have no imagination." No, not quite. The other "weird" names work because they are far enough out there. Youngling is just a play on the word "young." In fact, I agree with Scruffy. When Yoda said it in AOTC it didn't bother me, because I thought it was just an affectionate pet name that Yoda had for children. And, as an affectionate pet name, it sounds really weird when used in the context of murder and destruction. It'd be like someone mourning, "Oh no, they killed Go-Mer-poo!" And, no, that was not a death threat. Don't interpret it as so.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by:Jumpman

He did mention that if he ever would go back and tell the backstory that they would be different in tone and style. But, he didn't have it all planned out. He had the highlights in outline form as CO said.
.


See, I never had a problem with the PT being a different style and tone than the OT, but Lucas wanted it both ways with the PT. I always thought the PT should have been dead serious from the start, and even to the point that it doesn't cater to kids at all. Now of course you are going to lose market share for the box office gross, but who cares, movies that cater to kids don't age well when kids are not kids anymore. Just ask alot of people like me who loved ROTJ in 1983, and now think it is average.

The first ten minutes of TPM are what the tone of the PT should have, I love ObiWan and QuiGon in that first shot. Then they get to Naboo and meet Jar Jar, and the whole seriousness of the movies is gone. The PT should have staunch and political, but not cater to kids with Jar Jar humor and C3PO lame humor on Geonosis with his head getting pulled around during the FUCKIN CLONE WARS!!!!!

ROTS is the only Prequel that has the right mix of humor in it, it has about 3 minutes R2D2 humor in the beginning, but not too over the top, and then it gets serious for the rest of the movie, even though the dramatic parts are pretty bad like the turn and Padme losing the will to live, but that is another issue.

The problem with the PT and parts of ROTJ, is Lucas is trying to cater to every audience out there, and that is why all the films come off as very serious at times, and very juvenile at others. And yes, he is genius cause the PT movies grossed a shit load of money in that respect, but looking at the movies now, you wonder what TPM would be like without Jar Jar, or a hugely toned down Jar Jar. The one thing I love about ANH & ESB is they are not made for the kiddies, and they don't talk down to them either. Kiddies like me in 1977 jumped on the bandwagon, but not until the Ewoks did Lucas start to really go after my age group. And look how the Ewoks have aged in 22 years.

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Can I ask a serious question?

Were you guys this picky when it came to The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi back in the day?

I was five when Jedi came out so I wasn't "hip" to Star Wars yet, eventhough I liked watching them.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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CO,

I get your assertions about Episode I, but I would have to say because I think he knew he was going to some pretty dark places in Episode III. On top of that, the tone of Episode I, I believe, is that way for another reason and that's to mask how deceptive Episode I really is in the context of the Saga.

I mean, if you strip away everything in Episode I, it's really about Palpatine's machinations to get to the highest office in the Republic. That's serious stuff. And the celebration is a false one because they technically won but didn't really win in the grande scheme of things.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.