Being one of the worst movies ever made didn't hurt it at the box office either. It had the name "Star Wars" on it. I'm talking about the response , not the admissions paid - - the verbal response from EVERYONE (but you, Go-Mer) I have EVER talked with about this.
Oh, and believe me, being one of the BIGGEST, most-die-hard Star Wars fans on the West Coast, I have talked to LOTS and LOTS of people about Star Wars.
Oh yeah, there were certianly people who were disappointed. I was just saying that was inevitable. There was nothing Lucas could have done to make -everyone- unanamously happy.
Also, don't you think it's exaggerating things a bit to say any of the Star Wars movies were the worst movies ever made?
How can anyone possibly know that anyway? Your focus determines your reality.
Are you guys still at this? Go-Mer's still fighting the good fight.... Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.
Go-Mer, stupidly repeating the phrase "you can't please everyone" is not a valid argument in this thread whatsoever. I'm getting annoyed by it. Beauty is not invincably subjective. If someone happens to enjoy something, then there must always be an objective way in which they enjoy it, so argue on that precise, analytical basis.
Otherwise, arguing based upon public opinion can be very important. If the vast majority of people who watched Episode I were of the opinion that midichlorians were "dumb" (at least in the way they were presented in the film) then it would be more likely that the concept didn't entertain. It doesn't mean that they are correct of course, or that there aren't rare perspectives where midichlorians were fantastic from the start, but the likelyhood that they are correct is greater if they are in the majority.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic Tiptup, I can see what you are saying, but my point is, can't you assume Lucas intends it in the way you prefer until he actually says that's not the case?
I do that to a degree already. That doesn't mean I can't guess what he considers official based upon what he presented. I don't have to pretend that George intended it the way i wanted him to just to feel better. My life does not revolve around Star Wars and the mind of George Lucas. Does yours?
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
If you can actually give me some way of gauging just how many people thought these things "sucked" then maybe we can treat it like anything more than one of many opinions from the multitudes of people who paid to see TPM over and over again until it chimed in at 2nd highest world wide gross ever (at the time).
I'll grant you there were a lot of people who didn't like them. But I don't see how that makes them a "mistake" on Lucas' part.
I'm just saying that no matter what Lucas did, there would have been some fans that didn't like it. I'm not being unreasonable in that assumption am I? Your focus determines your reality.
I'll grant you there were a lot of people who didn't like them. But I don't see how that makes them a "mistake" on Lucas' part.
I'm just saying that no matter what Lucas did, there would have been some fans that didn't like it. I'm not being unreasonable in that assumption am I?
What? Where did I attack the reason of your assumption, Go-Mer? Are you really this stupid or do you simply enjoy arguing about topics that nobody is arguing about?
No, Go-Mer, as far as I'm concerned, your "assumption" there is an obvious fact. Is it not obvious to you? I actually think you're being an asshole for assuming that people need to even be told that. Nobody here, that I'm aware of, is that stupid. Even if someone here were that stupid, your statement has no relevance in this thread as an argument, Go-Mer (which is what I'm trying to tell you).
We are all very much aware that there will always be the odd, strange person who has a messed-up view of reality and might actually hate something wonderful, or enjoy something that clearly sucks. In fact, you remind us of that fact with practically every post of yours.
How would you like it, Go-Mer, if I responded to each and every one your posts with, "Well, no matter what George Lucas did in the PT, there will be fans that will love it no matter what"? Would that be a good argument to your reasons for liking the trilogy? Would you have liked it if I dismissed you as crazy and insinuated your unfairness with every reply I ever gave to you?
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
Honestly that's a fair assumption as well. I knew going in that unless the movies reached out and stabbed me in the face with a broken bottle, I was pretty much going to be okay with them.
I just think that there is really no use in being objective. No matter how "objective" either of us try to be, it ends up being futile right?
I think the best we can do is present each of our points of view, without acting like we represent "most" fans or people.
I'll be the first to tell you that it's certainly not a majority of people who think like I do. Your focus determines your reality.
Ya know, Go-Mer, I frelling HATE The Empire Strikes Back. I think it is a terrible film.
And yet, I realize that among Star Wars fans and movie fans, I am in the minority. I gathered that information by personally hearing from dozens if not hundreds of such people, and reading about such opinions when published. And so I conceed that it's a great film that I happen not to like.
Why you can't do that with TPM seems astoundingly stubborn. Perhaps you are acquainted with a far different group of Star Wars and movie fans than I am, and in your experience find that most people love Episode One.
But if not (as I imagine to be the case), can't you be man enough about it to stop foisting your minority opinions as fact?
If we ever get around to discussing the details of Empire Strikes Back around here, you will find lots of points made by me supporting my dislike of it. But I will not be calling others "wrong" for their love of the film. And if others say that "X" element is great, I will say it's not for whatever reason ONLY ONCE. I will not repeat my minority stance over and over and over and over again, as if repetition were equal to persuasion.
It's not. It's equal to annoyance and nothing more.
I really don't mean to imply anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and I'm sorry if I have come off like that.
Of course I'm a minority view. I realize that.
This isn't even about me trying to tell everyone else they are wrong.
I just think there are certain perceptions that aren't entirely reliable whenever we get into the discussion of what "most fans" think.
Are we really talking about "most fans"? Or just the really loud ones?
Now I'm not flip flopping here, I'm still not denying I'm in the minority. But I think that there is this perception that most fans hated or severely disliked TPM. I think it's a little more towards the middle. I'm not going to say 50 50, but closer to that than most.
We could go back and forth saying is so, is not, but there is nothing we can really point to concretely to detemine where perception ends and reality begins.
So my suggestion is all of us drop the "most fans think" intro to arguments (I don't mean to point this at anyone in particular).
I really do strive to present -my- point of view, and I try not to convey that I am speaking for anyone else but me. Your focus determines your reality.
I just think that there is really no use in being objective. No matter how "objective" either of us try to be, it ends up being futile right?
Futile? Hardly.
I believe in truth. I believe in science. I believe that everything in this universe can be known or understood to some degree. There is nothing that cannot be tested or analyzed in some way. Everything that truly exists can be known to exist if we properly look for it.
Aesthetics is a science that has existed for thousands of years and beauty is its primary concern. That is the point of this thread. I want reasons for why you can enjoy the prequels. I want to know why you find them beautiful in precise terms. I don't want to waste my time listening to unsupported opinions or wild brain farts. Some forms of entertainment are objectively better than others and some things are objectively ugly.
Majority opinions do not equal concrete evidence that a given work of art is bad or good. The reason for this is not because beauty is subjective, but because the sources for our sample opinions are flawed. However, in this case, if our opinions are sampled from people who generally give films a fair chance, enjoyed the original Star Wars for what it was (at the very least), and have an intelligent approach to art all around, then a majority opinion would carry a lot of weight. Certainly, we would always be required to doubt this opinion since we can't perfectly know if these people are being objective or to what degree, but we can at least say that their opinions have value on some level. Doesn't that sound reasonable, Go-Mer?
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
I certainly know what you are talking about, I'm just suggesting that in a debate such as this, where I clearly represent a minority view, the idea that "most" fans disagree with me is a moot point anyway.
I guess I was more just trying to underscore my opinion as mine alone. If you guys feel better presenting your own opinions as what a lot of other people think too, that's fine I guess. I just don't want to come off as a minority view trying to pass his opinions off as some kind of majority.
I'm just talking about this stuff from my own perspective.
I think you only share a minority view on here. To me, it's impossible to figure out how everyone views the Prequels. The box office can't tell you that. The online community can't really tell you that either. At best, it's a guess what everyone thinks of the Prequels. You can make certain conclusions from media reviews and reviews from the online community, but you juxtapose that with the box office and then what are you left with? It's the same with the DVD sales and merchandising. The Prequel Trilogy cleaned house in merchandising from '99 to '06.
Clearly, the Originals will always be number one to a certain generation. That's not going to change. But, a new generation will see it differently than us. Who's more right?
With the addition of the Prequels, Lucas has created a generational gap in his Saga. I personally feel that that was going to inevitable anyway. Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.
With the addition of the Prequels, Lucas has created a generational gap in his Saga. I personally feel that that was going to inevitable anyway.
This is true, just like the new Superman will have its divisions from the Christopher Reeves movies, but in saying that, there is a reason IMO that the OT will always appeal to a wider audience.
The PT or the saga now 1-6 is really the character arc of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, cause that is exactly what Lucas wants the saga now to be viewed as, not as Lukes story anymore, not as rebels vs empire which was more prevailant in the OT days, but as Lucas says in the ROTS commentary, "The movies are meant to be watched 1-6 as the tragedy of Darth Vader."
The reason the OT appealed to a wide range of fans who necessarily weren't scifi diehards is because the characters were in one sense 'normal' or relatable to the common folk. The PT movies or the story of Anakin now really is more geared for a niche scifi audience, cause a character like Han Solo who was vastly popular in the OT days are really just a minor figure to the saga 1-6 now.
Lucas chose to focus the saga 1-6 now and the key players are: Luke, Anakin, Kenobi, Yoda, and Palpatine, as they in a sense are dominant figures in the 6 movies even though their screentime is sparce at times.
When watching the saga now 1-6, the parts of rebels vs empire are just minor plots to the real story in ROTJ: Luke/Vader/Emperor which is now the dominant scene in the saga rather then Luke blowing up the death star as that was probably a fav of so many fans even after the OT was finished.
Lucas changed the context of the OT movies now and there are essentially two stories going on in the OT, and for fans of the saga 1-6, the second half of ESB & ROTJ will be the real story, as most of ANH, the first hour of ESB, and the 40 minute rescue of Han at Jabbas Palace just wont fit into the real story of Luke/Vader/Emperor confrontation.
So what has happened now is Lucas is pinning on the saga for fans to fall in love with the Darth Vader story, not the other characters like Han & Leia or the rebellion/empire plot. To enjoy the saga 1-6, you have to be interested in Darth Vader/Anakin, you have to like that story, cause that is really what the saga is about now, and that will definitely limit the overall fans cause it is so cut and dry.
The OT was beloved by so many cause there was so many things you can follow for 3 movies: Han Solo being the coolest M-F'er in the galaxy, Luke being the ultimate good guy, Darth Vader being the ultimate bad guy, and Leia being a good role model for young girls, or simply falling in love with the good vs evil macro story of the rebels vs empire.
With the PT, you do have secondary characters and the rise of the empire, but that is all put out as the secondary story to Anakins, so what you will have in the future is a fanbase of Anakin/Darth Vader story lovers, and that is it, and that is why you have this huge division on line because there is a set of fans who love the Darth Vader story, but there is also this huge majority that think he got TOO much time, and the fact that the saga is his story now has turned them off.
I know it did for me cause Lucas originally did the PT as just a backstory on how Darth Vader came to be, but I never thought he would twist the OT story as a linear story of the Tragedy of Darth Vader, cause if he wrote The Original SW with that story in mind, I know I would have never been a diehard.
I’m an original member here dating back to 2004. Haven’t posted in years, but looking forward to posting again.
Jumpman, another way of looking at is think of it this way:
Many fans growing up watched the OT for Han Solo, because he was so cool and got attached to that character. Many fans, mostly females, loved Leias feistiness and got attached to her for 3 movies. Many fans like myself wanted to be Luke Skywalker from the minute he leaves Tatooine, not cause he is a jedi, just cause ANH was about achieving bigger things in life, and Luke achieved that at the end of the movie.
So now you watch the saga 1-6, and you are one of those fans who never fell in love with why Darth Vader came to be, cause you thought he was cool, but being a bad guy is all he ever was to you. No matter how great or crappy the movies are made, what characters can you follow for 1-3? If you follow Padme, she is dead by Episode III, and is only mentioned once in 4-6. What Lucas forgot by making this a linear story of Darth Vader was that ALL of the characters in the OT was just as key as the mythology, action, and special effects, and by making the saga solely about Anakin forces the viewer to really love his story for 6 movies, and if you do, I guarantee you are a saga fan.
I’m an original member here dating back to 2004. Haven’t posted in years, but looking forward to posting again.
I was one of the people who thought Darth vader was totally awesome. He had a kickass outfit, he had mysterious powers, and he was a mystery. But, we knew at the very least that he was very evil. He was a monster who would do very evil things to achieve his goals. The stories were never about him. The stories were never about Darth vader's achievements. They were always about what the hero, Luke, could accomplish. Even at the end, when Darth Vader tosses the emperor over the edge, that wasn't a very difficult action, it was Luke who reached out to him and convinced him to turn from evil. Even after he died, and I saw his body being burned by Luke, I still saw him as an evil monster.
For George to claim that Darth Vader's story was ever "originally intended" to be the focus of the original trilogy, at any point, is laughably ridiculous.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I certainly know what you are talking about, I'm just suggesting that in a debate such as this, where I clearly represent a minority view, the idea that "most" fans disagree with me is a moot point anyway.
Not if you are communicating the attitude that it's crazy to dislike the prequels because they're perfectly equivalent in quality to the original trilogy. You act as if it should be clear as day to us as you offer scant reasoning to back up your statements. Considering that the majority of people that I have run into in casual circumstances believe the PT was inferior, it would be nice if you at least acknowledged that your point of view is actually difficult for most people to identify with.
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
The PT seemed to be focused way too much on spiffy light saber fights and CGI characters instead of a good story or even good character development. I honestly don't think that I had any reason to feel like I cared about these characters or what happened to them....Which is why these movies were terrible.
Tiptup, in matters of taste, I don't think anyone's crazy.
What I was talking about were certain things people tend to pick on. For example a lot of times people will say Lucas is "too reliant" on the latest special effects to the point of "showcasing" the effects as a priority.
You could say the same thing about the nifty new effects Lucas pumped into the classic trilogy back in the day.
Now if you want to say aside from that, that you personally feel the prequels lacked any substance beyond being a technical demo (not that you are saying this), that is a matter of preference, of artistic taste. The only thing I can say in return is that I happen to feel they had just as much substance as the stuff that held the classic trilogy's SFX together.
To me artistic preference is an opinion, not right or wrong. Your focus determines your reality.
Gomer, putting aside all the details that I see that everyone has argued here: Midiclorians, Anakin as an 8 year old, QuiGon finding Anakin, Anakins turn, etc.
For me and I can only speak for myself, it is the characters that really make me think the PT movies are OK instead of great. I just can't grasp to any of the characters other then ObiWan in someways, but Anakin & Padme are the key to the trilogy, you have to care about them, their fate, their tragedy.
For me, I watch the PT movies and enjoy the story cause it ties into the OT, but they just don't hit on an emotional level that the OT does, and that is cause of the characters, and I think that is the dirty little secret that everyone misses.
I think ROTJ is a good sequel, but not as great as ANH/ESB, but I love it just as much, cause of those characters that Lucas developed. Lucas could have made 7,8,9 of Fisher, Ford, and Hamill with the same quality as ROTJ and I think I would have still loved the movies, that is the power of characters in movies for me personally.
The PT was going to be tough cause it has to introduce new characters or younger characters from the OT movies, but they were all DIFFERENT ACTORS, and that is huge for a new set of movies to be tied into ones that have utterly lovable characters. And it has nothing to do with the fact that they are not the ultimate good guy characters, cause the PT was not going to be that type of trilogy.
But I don't know how you could convince me that I am wrong about the PT movies, when I have zero attachment to Anakin/Padme for 3 movies, cause I just feel you have to care about the characters, and then the director has the viewer for 2 hours.
Characters, I still believe it is the biggest failure of the PT, and everyone has an opinion: Do I care about these characters or not?
I’m an original member here dating back to 2004. Haven’t posted in years, but looking forward to posting again.
I keep repeating over and over that it's -not- about right or wrong.
I agree about the power of characters.
If I couldn't connect with the prequel characters, gotten emotionally attatched to them, or sympathised with their plight, I wouldn't have enjoyed the prequels either.
I guess to me trying to recapture what made the classic trilogy great is a losing proposition. There is really no way to do that short of telling the same kind of story over again or as you suggested, by having the same "characters" that we fell in love with from the beginning.
To me the prequels are like a mirror image of the classic trilogy, like a yin is a mirror to the yang. They aren't the same, but they fill the other's void. To me this makes for a more well rounded story. You get to see many of the topics from several different, sometimes opposite points of view.
I mean we have a situation where each trilogy is about a force sensitve religion (that has been reduced to having only 2 members in hiding) trying to regain control of the galaxy. But they are polar opposites.
It's about a rebellion that ultimately changes the galaxy from democracy into a dictatorship and a rebellion that ultimately changes the dictatorship into a democracy.
I just think that in the long run, the extra detail will pay off better than trying to "recapture" the magic of the classic trilogy. Your focus determines your reality.
Gomer, I am not saying I want Luke, Leia, and Han Part 2 in the PT, cause that would be redundant and just come off as very transparent.
I don't fault Lucas on the story of the PT, I actually like it, and though the turn is pretty bad, and Padme losing the will to live is contrived, that is all stuff that I would be able to live with had I some attachment to the characters. For instance in ROTJ, I never like that Luke/Leia are siblings, but at that point I was not going to nitpick, and just accepted it and from then on never had a problem. The bottom line is Lucas had me by ROTJ, and he could have done anything without it being too ridiculous.
Anakin had a chance of being the dominant character of the saga in terms of depth compared to the OT characters. Lucas actually got Anakin right with TPM, he is a good kid, or the golden boy as I call him. But for some reason Lucas made Anakin very unlikable in AOTC, and goes against everything he did in TPM.
Anakin should not have been unlikable until he turned, and that would be the whole tragedy, you have this character you love for 2 1/2 movies does something stupid, and you shake your head on why he does it. But now you have this character who I just didn't like in AOTC & ROTS do something stupid, and now my reaction, "Good, he deserved everything he got on Mustafar."
That isn't a tragedy, that isn't an anti-hero, an anti-hero is Dirty Harry played by Clint Eastwood, not Luke Skywalker. An anti-hero is a guy who is beloved by the audience, but you do question the things he does cause he may be arrogant, he may take some liberties with the law, and he may be just as evil as the bad guys in some ways, buy in the end he is doing it for the good guys, so you may not agree with his methods, but you sure as hell understand.
If Dirty Harry is unlikable in that movie, then the movie fails miserably. The whole time you think of Eastwood as this rogue cop, but there is just something you love about his pozazz and charisma that gives him leeway to take matters in his own hands. For Anakin, he just never grabbed me in AOTC/ROTS, and I just couldn't root for him, and that is where Lucas really dropped the ball.
I’m an original member here dating back to 2004. Haven’t posted in years, but looking forward to posting again.
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero But don't you think that if the characters had been properly developed, killing Padme would be emotionally equal to killing Princess Leia?
I guess for me it already was equivelent.
What wasn't properly developed about the characters?
When it comes to Anakin's likability, I thought he was pretty much relatable up until he finally turned. He showed remorse for the tusken slaying which is relatable because what if it were -your- mom?
When it comes to Anakin's arrogance, I thought that was on display in TPM from the get go. Anakin goes on and on about how great he is, and how he's building this awesome robot, and how he's the only human who is capable of racing pods. The main difference is his disposition, which has become less patient. I thought they did a decent job of illustrating his frustration with the Jedi Order and with Obi-Wan which led to this change of disposition. Add a little romance to the equation and watch it boil over like one of those baking soda volcanoes from the science fair. Your focus determines your reality.
