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The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga" — Page 2

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Originally posted by: CO
What are the three biggest complaints about the PT:

1. Anakin as a 10 year old in TPM
2. Anakin/Padme love affair in AOTC
3. Anakins turn to the darkside in ROTS



CO,
I hate to be a fussy Frank about this but the three biggest complaints about the PT are actually:

1. Episode 1 sucked
2. Episode 2 sucked
3. Episode 3 sucked

HARMY RULES

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Yeah, I can't explain away "It sucked".
Your focus determines your reality.
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Damn you Gomer you crazy bastard, you're always on me like white on rice. I think I'm starting to like you, you've really got alot of panache. You must run on Lucasfilm super-diesel.

HARMY RULES

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I see no problem with Anakin being 9 in the first movie. For what Lucas was going for, he had to be young at his introduction. The way I see it, there are three critical points in Anakin's fall to the darkside.

1. Anakin leaving his mother
2. Anakin watching his mother die
3. Anakin wanting to prevent the death of Padme

If you want to start the movie with Anakin already a Jedi, his fall to the darkside doesn't work. It relies on the fact that he left his mother at an early age. At nine years old, he's just a kid. The world's too big for him and the only thing he's got is his mother. The separation at an early age scares the shit out of him. Flash forward 10 years. And all he has is his memories of her. When he left at 9, he was still years before teenage angst. His love for his mother was idealized. There was no one he loved more. Then when he finally visits her, she's taken from him like that. It was a huge loss. And he meets the loss with an outburst of uncontrolled anger. Had he had more time with his mother, his grief may have been more mature and more introspective. His regret at not coming sooner and not being able to save his mother drives him to want more power to save the ones he loves. And then obviously, Padme enters the picture, replaces the void left by his mother's death, and it's the same story all over again.

One of the things I like the most about Revenge of the Sith is that feeling that's in the air. While watching it, there's a mood of constant doom that you can't shake off. It's like a nightmare. You know things are going to go down a slippery slope full of unimaginable horrors, and the worst thing about it is you can't wake up. You have no choice but to be subjected to it. That's the feeling I get out of the movie. It's like a descent to hell. No matter how hard you try, you know you can't climb out again. And some of this is obviously due to the original trilogy. Without a doubt, the fact that you know what's going to happen is like a sick joke. It has shades of Macbeth and Oedipus in the whole fate vs. free will motif. You know how things are going to end and no matter how hard the characters try, they can't escape the fates that have been written for them.
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Originally posted by: CO

That is why I can still see the saga 4-6 because that story never changed, it is about Luke, Leia, and Han and how they help the rebels defeat the Empire, with a nice sub-story of Luke redeeming his father, Darth Vader that adds some depth, and that is why I don't need the PT to complete my SW fandom, because I don't love the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. Sorry, but it aint that interesting for 6 movies now.


Holy crap, CO, awesome post! You basically summarized my exact feelings on the matter, as well!

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A week ago I was a devout PT hater, but Monday I watched The Phantom Menace ( having went months without seeing it ). While I was watching it I made myself forget the rest of the movies and focus on this movie as a singular story, as if I hadn't seen the other films. And for the first time since 1999 I felt the enjoyment I felt seeing the movie on the bigscreen, I felt like a kid again, and it was the best feeling I have had in a long time. Now I can watch any one of the PT movies and enjoy them. Now I feel like the saga is complete. For the longest time I have had this gaping emotional hole due to the fact that the saga felt unfinished and incomplete, but Monday I decided that this is the PT we got and hating it isn't going to change it. I decided to accept it as part of the saga and now for the first time the saga is complete for me. You guys may not understand this but for me this a major thing. Now, I don't feel hate and rage everytime I think about Star Wars, instead I feel exitement and joy.

P.S. Please don't hate me for my change of heart, because I still absolutely love this place.

P.S.S. I still prefer the OOT over the SE.

P.S.S.S. I am not going to go and become a TF.N junkie, because I still am a devout TF.N hater.


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Originally posted by: Rob

CO,
I hate to be a fussy Frank about this but the three biggest complaints about the PT are actually:

1. Episode 1 sucked
2. Episode 2 sucked
3. Episode 3 sucked

LOL!!!!! I nearly fell out my chair with that one!


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I don't dislike the PT. I think it's entertaining. Some parts are even great. However, some parts are completely cringeworthy. Revenge of the Sith made me laugh at the deaths of children, which means that something was horribly wrong with that scene. But I find the movies enjoyable enough. I didn't, however, ever think that we were "supposed" to watch them in numerical order. That thought never entered my mind, and I can't believe that's the view that George is trying to press. Once again, if he'd wanted them to be watched that way, he would have made them that way. As it is, it makes no sense. The two trilogies are two separate stories, and the PT is totally dependent on having seen the OT first. The PT is backstory. It is there to explain the past of the OT. That's its only purpose. I mean, he can deny it all he wants, but it's very obvious in the way he made the prequels. He was obviously trying to cater to fans of the original movies, which just doesn't work if these are the first Star Wars movies you saw. All those useless, jarring, and unncessary cameos and allusions are there only because Star Wars fans will know what they are. Jango Fett and little Boba? Because we know of Boba Fett from the OT. The droids? Because we knew them from the OT. Chewbacca? Because we knew him from the OT. Binary sunset? Because we saw it in the first movie. I will argue that all that stuff sucks, but the point remains that it's only there in the first place because we should have already seen the OT. The 6 part tragedy (when, in reality, it doesn't even fit the classification of a tragedy to begin with) of Anakin Skywalker just doesn't fly. The PT is Anakin's story. But the OT is Luke's story. It always was. And saying it's not doesn't change anything.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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CO--thanks for being able to say those things so i don't have to. I'm very tired today. Great post though. Thats the most logical and objective anaylsis of why the PT, as a whole, doesn't completely satisfy. That doesn't mean "it sucks" or "its crap" before any SE lover get offended, because I'll admit that there are parts of the PT that are fairly well done and that I enjoy. But overall, for the reasons CO posted, the I-VI saga doesn't work. And its no surprise--to try to form a new movies series by using twenty-year-old films as a basis and retroacitively joining prequels to them to consolidate the newly created story...its just such an impossible thing to do. You can't make films that weren't designed to tell a particular story tell a particular story.
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The PT is garbage. And i don't say this because I just want to put it down and praise the OT. The OT has its garbage too but when we're talking about the PT with George Lucas writing and directing all 3 and carelessly screwing up continuity and focusing more on pretty fx than the story, it's a nooooooooooooooooo brainer. Does it have its moments? Hell yeah, I love duel of the fates, wish it was part of a better film... but well the bad outweighed the good in this case. What kind of a trilogy has to lessen one of the main character's role in the sequels because he's so annoyingly crappy. We used to have standards for star wars that put it above crap like that with characters stepping in shit and being farted on, but of course for whatever reason Lucas re-wrote those standards I guess or now with Kurtz gone he could put in all the farting and shit that he always wanted... who knows. whatever

I can't believe I wasted money on these phantom menace and attack of the clones dvds. I'll gladly give them away for free.
He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

http://prequelsstink.ytmnd.com/
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I don't dislike the PT. I think it's entertaining. Some parts are even great. However, some parts are completely cringeworthy. Revenge of the Sith made me laugh at the deaths of children, which means that something was horribly wrong with that scene. You are laughing at the deaths of children, and it's the "scene" that's wrong? I have to say I was in tears for that bit. It hit me really hard when he ignighted his saber on opening night. Every time since I can try to hold it back for that scene, but in the next one when Padme breaks down I always lose it still.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
But I find the movies enjoyable enough. I didn't, however, ever think that we were "supposed" to watch them in numerical order. That thought never entered my mind, and I can't believe that's the view that George is trying to press. For me it was the way he numbered them that clued me into that prospect.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Once again, if he'd wanted them to be watched that way, he would have made them that way. According to Lucas, he made them out of order for a couple of reasons. 1) He figured the ANH part of the story was the most straightforward for an audience. 2) He felt he could pull off the 2nd half of the story easier because it all takes place away from the center of the universe, so he wouldn't have to render something as ambitious as Couruscant.Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
As it is, it makes no sense.
Really it does make sense, I'm telling you it makes perfect sense.Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The two trilogies are two separate stories, and the PT is totally dependent on having seen the OT first. The PT is backstory. It is there to explain the past of the OT. That's its only purpose. I mean, he can deny it all he wants, but it's very obvious in the way he made the prequels. He was obviously trying to cater to fans of the original movies, which just doesn't work if these are the first Star Wars movies you saw. All those useless, jarring, and unncessary cameos and allusions are there only because Star Wars fans will know what they are. Jango Fett and little Boba? Because we know of Boba Fett from the OT. The droids? Because we knew them from the OT. Chewbacca? Because we knew him from the OT. Binary sunset? Because we saw it in the first movie. I will argue that all that stuff sucks, but the point remains that it's only there in the first place because we should have already seen the OT.
If you see the prequels first, then wouldn't it be the classic trilogy with the cameos that are dependant on having seen the prequels? A first time viewer would be just fine seeing the prequels before the classic trilogy, because they get to see the events as they unfold. Nothing is spoiled in this order aside from the "I am your father" surprise (which now becomes "Oh my God, what will Luke do now that he's finally found out the whole truth?") and the "Leia is my Sister", which really to me seems like a pretty convenient development without the prequels to set it up in the first place. Before the prequels it was like they picked "the other" out of a hat, now it seems like it was always part of the story.Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The 6 part tragedy (when, in reality, it doesn't even fit the classification of a tragedy to begin with) of Anakin Skywalker just doesn't fly. The PT is Anakin's story. But the OT is Luke's story. It always was. And saying it's not doesn't change anything.
The whole saga is Anakin's story, but I agree the classic trilogy is still primarily Luke's story with a cameo by Anakin in the end when he finaly "returns".
Your focus determines your reality.
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Thanks to Go-Mer and Jumpman for reposting the increasingly convoluted rationalisations needed to explain the PT.

Thus showing one of the many reasons the OT is better cinema: it doesn't require additional explanation.
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It's not convoluted, it just confuses you quite a bit.
Your focus determines your reality.
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THX,

The Prequels are hardly convoluted. They're a bit more complex than the Original Trilogy but that shouldn't be a surprise. Lucas stated many times over the years that if he got a chance to do the "backstory", they would be different than the Original Trilogy.

Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this.
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Seriously, none of this is all that difficult to understand if you give it half a chance.
Your focus determines your reality.
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All those details discussed here (midichlorians, jumps...) really confirm what I was thinking. A number of (O)OT fans don't want to see NEW things to appear in their favourite universe...

And it's why GL has never got a tiny chance to satisfy all SW fans, simply cause a number of them want to see "new" adventures, but without "new" in-universe details. And in the other hand, those same fans hate GL when he re-use an element from the OT. Take his place for a minute. What the hell could YOU make to satisfy all SW fans? Mission: impossible...

I really don't understand why an element that didn't appear in the OT shouldn't appear in the PT (or any "new" story). Please stop taking the OT as a Holly Bible... That was just my point of view.
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I felt like I was watching 3 hour long PS2 games when watching each prequel.

Horrible movies. Horrible acting, horrible CG, horrible characters, horrible plot. The decline of the Star Wars films began with Jedi and those absurd Ewoks, it was given a few decades to marinate it in its declining rotten stank and thus the prequels were born.

I got completely shitfaced for the last two prequels hoping it would help. It didn't, and usually with enough Jack Daniels I can watch an infomercial and maintain some degree of interest. One of my buddies sitting next to me even fell asleep during the last one, he woke back up after close to an hour and kept saying "Did I miss the battle, did I miss the battle?" like a confused drunk retard. I told him to go back to sleep.



Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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It's not that it's hard to understand, it's just maybe it could have been more fun TO understand. There's a lot of people entering and exiting rooms, people walking slowly and talking, ships slowly landing, ships taking off. People frowning. People telling Natalie Portman she's not like sand. But Mcregor and McDiarmid are great and have enhanced those 2 characters, so that alone is worth a lot.
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I don't understand why not everyone was having fun understanding the prequels.

I had a total blast seeing all the new things to the saga, and I still say nothing has been contradicted, which is a collosal feat unto itself when you think about how many years he made these movies over.

So many times have I heard people tell me the reasons they didn't like the PT were because: The directing, writing, acting, and CG sucked.

Then if I ask someone what writing or acting sucked, they list a quote like how Anakin talks about sand.

I ask again, Why? what's wrong with that? and they look at me like: "Well don't you know? It just sucks" there is no "why"!.

Your focus determines your reality.
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The prequels are too filled with stuff that "looks cool" and doesn't really fit the story. A great example of this is General Grevious. Why have this caracter? He just suddenly appears in Ep III, and is little more than a throwaway villian. Does he serve any purpose other than "wouldn't this make a great action figure!" He seems to do little for the story. If you insist on having Grevious, why not introduce him in II, or do something like have him actually be Maul, or something that ties him in to the rest of the story.
The jedi force powers also fit into this area. It looks cool to have a hyperactive jumping Yoda, and Superman-like Mace. Even if it doesn't fit, we'll explain it by saying that the Jedi in the OT were old(Obi-Wan, Yoda, Emperor), crippled (Vader), or untrained and didn't know what they were doing (Luke). The problem with this is that in the prequels, people like Yoda and Dooku were already really old and it didn't hurt them any, Grevious was crippled and still did great (I know, he isn't a real jedi, but still). And if Luke was untrained and not ready, then why the heck was Yoda and Obi-Wan determined for him to face down Vader? Did they want him to get killed?
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Wow, I actually agree with this comment about Revenge of the Sith ... though, um, not at all with the same sentiment ShiftyEyes posted with:
Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes

While watching it, there's a mood of constant doom that you can't shake off. It's like a nightmare. You know things are going to go down a slippery slope full of unimaginable horrors, and the worst thing about it is you can't wake up. You have no choice but to be subjected to it. That's the feeling I get out of the movie.

Yep, one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Like a descent into hell and a nightmare from which I could not escape.

The only Star Wars movie I never bothered to own, or to watch again past my initial theatrical experiences of horror (I gave it three chances, but it failed to emerge from complete suckitude).

I'll grant Sith one boon - - - it made Phantom Menace look like frelling Citizen Kane to me in comparison.



The only way the PT works as part of a saga is as a backstory only hazily remembered, thus perhaps accounting for the many ways it fails to relate to the real Star Wars saga, both logically, and thematically. But I prefer not to consider it as part of the "saga" at all. Greater lameness cannot be iimagined by me.



.
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Padme: Oh ANAKIN, you're breaking my heart.

Anakin: *Chokes a bitch*

Padme: Aaaack you're choking me, extremely uncomfortable!

Obi Wan: Anakin! I am the only one in this film who comes close to being able to act.

Padme: *falls to the ground like a loser*

*CG lava razzle dazzles the audience*

Doctor Bot #1: I do not know why she is dieing. Perhaps she has lost the will to live.

Doctor Bot #2: That's not even a legitimate medical explanation.

Doctor Bot #1: Does not compute.

Padme: *dies due to "losing the will to live"*

Vader: Where's Padme and her large hats?

Emperor: You killed her!

Vader: *Frankenstein's Monster dance*

Vader: NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!


Seriously go fuck yourselves fellas. Hey just kidding. If you want to enjoy the movies go right ahead, there's no accounting for taste. Lots of people genuinely enjoyed Hitch. It's not my fault you have the sensibilities of a retard, running around movie theaters all slack-jawed and cum-drunk watching whatever poo they fling on the screen. Arguing about matters of taste is generally a waste of time, opinions aren't provable... some people simply have horrible, idiotic opinions (that's my opinion and you can take it to the bank, Jack.) My dislike of the prequels has absolutely nothing to do with my love of the original Star Wars movies (I'm lukewarm on many parts of Jedi,) or how I feel about what should and should not be in the Star Wars "universe," it is simply because they were completely lack-luster films - SkyWalker Ranch tech demos. "Wow look at them walk around slowly and talk Star Wars politics... don't those ships in the background look amazing. Look, they're flying."

Right now I'm sitting here at work listening to In the Air Tonight and eating home-made chili - so you can take that right home to Howard, and you can tell Howard that he can shove it right up his ass.

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

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So in your case the reason you didn't like the prequels had nothing to do with nostalgia, you just have a horrendous attitude?
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
So in your case the reason you didn't like the prequels had nothing to do with nostalgia, you just have a horrendous attitude?


The only thing horrendous about Stinky-Dinkins is his horrendous whale unit. How do you like them apples Gomer? I'm talking in 3rd person now. You are a real sassy salamander and for that I respect you.

I don't give a fuck about George Lucas, nostalgia, or the like. I enjoy watching good movies. The prequels were poor movies. Most of America has poor taste - it's reflected by the shows we watch on TV, the movies we pay to see, and the music we listen to on the radio. If you enjoy the prequels - more power to you Sally. Honestly, I wish I were at your level - able to eat crap as if it were candy. I would love to love the prequels.

Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why