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***The MeBeJedi feedback thread *** — Page 4

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Originally posted by: Laserschwert
That's what I meant... you won't get a sharper image because of the higher resolution, because this resolution-boost is only fake. But still, an 8x8 pixels large compression artifact block appears bigger on a letterboxed image than it does on an anamorphic image. That's fact... at least mathematically. I am looking forward to your samples, MeBe.
Yes, but there's less picture information to compress when it's 4x3. MeBeJedi is bowing to the demands of both groups of people, so even though I think the 16:9 is silly I say "great work". I'd say the same to Lucas if he released the originals and SE's, even though I despise the SE's.
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Bit of a long post this, but I hope you get a chance to read it MebeJedi

Sad to read you are ditching the anamorphic widescreen version,
It's obvious that not many people on this board have a widescreen TV as there display device because of all the crap that’s spouted off.
I'm worried that this influenced your decision to drop the 16x9 version, do you have a widescreen TV/display yourself?
I know that 4x3 screens are the norm in the US and only really HT enthusiasts seem to have them
However here in the UK the majority of people now have 16x9 sets (4x3 was ditched a few years back, you never see them in shops, only portable versions really)
In real life 4x3 letterbox would be the worst possible solution for viewing on these screens, the satellite channel TCM broadcasts their films this way as a sort of "mock widescreen" and you end up with a tiny rectangle (the film) in a black square (4x3) in the centre of the screen.
On my set (Toshiba (one of the best TV brands in the UK, along with Panasonic) you have to "stretch" the picture to 16x9 ratio then zoom in again.
Practically, a 2.35.1 anamorphic DVD will not fill the whole of a 16x9 display, but you will get thinner black bars and no loss in picture quality than you would if it was non anamorphic AND certainly MUCH BETTER quality then if you stretched out a 4x3 letterbox picture using the TV settings.


This is not a slight against you Mebejedi, it’s just the input of someone who watches and enjoys home cinema (scrutinizing a picture on a computer screen does not count as home cinema ) on a widescreen display and who is one of many many people who would appreciate a release that would really do the film justice on our equipment. I suppose it's a bit of a selfish argument in that respect.
I'm just sad that it looks like I'll have to purchase the Lucas release now, I think yours was the only one offering anamorphic and 5.1....

Anyway, I wish you all the best with your project whatever you decide to do,

Cheers,
Stew

We Got Death Star!
We Got Death Star!
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"because this resolution-boost is only fake. But still, an 8x8 pixels large compression artifact block appears bigger on a letterboxed image than it does on an anamorphic image. That's fact... at least mathematically."

Explain how this is so....any time you zoom in on a picture, you lose resolution. Because the source material for our SW DVDs is not the original film - we are essentially "zooming" in on the picture - whether it be by using the TV electronics or DVD mastering software. We are, in effect, attempting to fill in the empty space. What we know of as an anamorphic DVD (which is technically incorrect, but that's another debate completely) takes the original film source and squeezes it into the same frame space. There's a tremendous difference between stretching something out to fill in space (4x3 to anamorphic), and having to squeeze something into that same space (film to anamorphic).

And why would an 8x8 compression artifact of a visual glitch be any bigger or smaller than any other 8x8 block of visual information? Everything is being enlarged when you zoom in - errors and all. (This is why I don't intend to make either version, much less the anamorphic version, until I've corrected such visual errors, but Combustion is giving me problems. )

"Bit of a long post this....Sad to read you are ditching the anamorphic widescreen version"

Read carefully, I meant this only in regards to the MPEG samples - not for the final MPEG of the entire film. Sorry you had to type all that.

(BTW, are you the same BentMyWookie from TF.n?)

"MeBeJedi is bowing to the demands of both groups of people"

I bow to NO ONE - KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!!

"so even though I think the 16:9 is silly I say "great work".

Heck, it's not even work - I just change a few settings and recompile. It's really no big deal. So many people on the internet just don't get anamorphic anyways, and I figured have both versions would solve a lot of hassle. As much as people ohh and ahh about Dr. Gonzo's "anamorphic" version, his picture is VERY soft and lacks considerable color (though I believe the color is due to the version he used, as I have that same LD.)
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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I agree with what MeBeJedi has decided, after all anamorphic is going to be more or less obsolete when we are all using progressive diplays in 5 to 10 years. As long as he makes them progressive I don't mind what aspect ratio he uses.
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BTW, are you the same BentMyWookie from TF.n?


Nope, must be another simpsons fan

I appologise for not reading it properly, I just got very worried that there would be no Widescreen dvd!

Thank god that crazy thought was just in my imagination,

Keep on (Space)Truckin'
We Got Death Star!
We Got Death Star!
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"after all anamorphic is going to be more or less obsolete when we are all using progressive diplays in 5 to 10 years."

See what I mean about people not getting anamorphic?

eros, as long as film will be converted to television, anamorphic ain't going anywhere... (and I've not deinterlaced the films, either.)

BTW, MPEGs are being uploaded right now.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi


And why would an 8x8 compression artifact of a visual glitch be any bigger or smaller than any other 8x8 block of visual information? Everything is being enlarged when you zoom in - errors and all.


Laserschwert is right about this, MBJ. The macro blocks will be bigger relative to the picture. The compression artifacts will not be bigger than any other 8x8 blocks, but all the blocks will be bigger.
Divide a 4:3, 720x480 frame into 8x8 blocks. That's the size of the macro blocks on your letterboxed version. Divide the picture only (mostly), 720x480 frame into 8x8 blocks. That's the macro block size of your anamorphic version.
However, there should be enough space on the disc to minimise any macro noise. It will only have 2 audio tracks, simple menus and a 2hr movie, for a DL disc that is nothing. Also, you have more disc space because there is less movement in the image. This allows more bitrate, again reducing the presence of macro noise.

Originally posted by: BentMyWookie

It's obvious that not many people on this board have a widescreen TV as there display device because of all the crap that’s spouted off.
I'm worried that this influenced your decision to drop the 16x9 version, do you have a widescreen TV/display yourself?
I know that 4x3 screens are the norm in the US and only really HT enthusiasts seem to have them
However here in the UK the majority of people now have 16x9 sets (4x3 was ditched a few years back, you never see them in shops, only portable versions really)
In real life 4x3 letterbox would be the worst possible solution for viewing on these screens, the satellite channel TCM broadcasts their films this way as a sort of "mock widescreen" and you end up with a tiny rectangle (the film) in a black square (4x3) in the centre of the screen.
On my set (Toshiba (one of the best TV brands in the UK, along with Panasonic) you have to "stretch" the picture to 16x9 ratio then zoom in again.
Practically, a 2.35.1 anamorphic DVD will not fill the whole of a 16x9 display, but you will get thinner black bars and no loss in picture quality than you would if it was non anamorphic AND certainly MUCH BETTER quality then if you stretched out a 4x3 letterbox picture using the TV settings.


Here's an example of what I mean -- bentmywookie, you don't understand the argument. The 'fake' 16x9 that is broadcast by tv channels is not the same as a letterboxed DVD. To see what it looks like, find an old DVD that is 1.85:1 and not 16x9 enhanced. Put it in your dvd player and change the TV display settings to 'zoom'. This zooms-in on a 16x9 segment of the 4:3 image and stretches it. The black bars are the same size as the ones that are encoded onto a widescreen dvd. There is loss in picture quality if it is anamorphic, because you are creating resolution that isn't there in the first place, when you transfer from LD. Keep in mind that this is different to commercial DVD's which are created from film!
btw, I think you are using the wrong settings on your TV. You are describing the effect of stretching a letterboxed movie horizontally to fill a 16x9 frame (giving larger black bars). Your setting would give the wrong aspect ratio, and everything would look stretched. This is not the setting to use. The TV will have another display setting, called 'zoom' (or similar), which is designed for viewing LB properly on a widescreen TV. That's unless the TV station is broadcasting a "14:9" picture (a wierd hybrid ratio that some channels use to fill more of the screen). In which case you're better off leaving it, but nevertheless, it is different to what we are talking about.
And like I said, I own a 16:9 TV and would prefer the LB dvd. There is no-one here who is "spouting off crap", except those who don't know how to use their TV properly, and those who are programmed to automatically think that anamorphic=better.
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"Laserschwert is right about this, MBJ. The macro blocks will be bigger relative to the picture. The compression artifacts will not be bigger than any other 8x8 blocks, but all the blocks will be bigger.
Divide a 4:3, 720x480 frame into 8x8 blocks. That's the size of the macro blocks on your letterboxed version. Divide the picture only (mostly), 720x480 frame into 8x8 blocks. That's the macro block size of your anamorphic version."


Okay, I get what you are saying. Unfortunately, there is stll a problem. If one wants the anamorphic version, buy plays it on a 4x3 television, then even more resolution is being lost because the player is throwing away visual information to make it fit the screen. There's no point in throwing out buckets of visual information to "cover up" a few glitches (which, again, is why I am using Combustion 3, and also why I intend to master both versions.)

BTW, thank GOD for VirtualDubMod. I was going to give you a screenshot of my MPEG, because the whites in my Tantive flyover were being crushed in the MPEG, and I couldn't figure out why. However, in VDM, the whites were fine. After looking at my DVDMax settings, I changed it from "theater" mode to "original" mode, and the whites are fine now. I've been trying to fix this fucking problem for weeks! Argh!
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Okay, I get what you are saying. Unfortunately, there is stll a problem. If one wants the anamorphic version, buy plays it on a 4x3 television, then even more resolution is being lost because the player is throwing away visual information to make it fit the screen. There's no point in throwing out buckets of visual information to "cover up" a few glitches (which, again, is why I am using Combustion 3, and also why I intend to master both versions.)


The player IS throwing away some resolution, that's true... but the resolution that gets lost was added by US when scaling up the image to be anamorph. It's the same as if you would be scaling the image up and down again in VirtualDub... there's no notable change in quality here.

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
"after all anamorphic is going to be more or less obsolete when we are all using progressive diplays in 5 to 10 years."

See what I mean about people not getting anamorphic?

eros, as long as film will be converted to television, anamorphic ain't going anywhere... (and I've not deinterlaced the films, either.)

BTW, MPEGs are being uploaded right now.



NO I think YOU don't get it! When we have pixel based displays line numbers and aspect ratios don't matter anymore you can stretch and squeeze the picture but the resolution will remain the same. Anamorphic is designed to make video on 16:9 CRT's more watchable, end of story.
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"When we have pixel based displays....."

You are telling me this when people are still buying black-&-white TVs? LOL. End of story, indeed...

"A chicken in every pot, and a scaler in every TV"

Besides, an anamorphic DVD mastered from the film will still have more visual information than a non-anamorphic DVD mastered from the film, so tell me - which would you rather scale from?

Now, whether or not HD-DVD uses "anamorphic" or a wider frame altogether remains to be seen - it's so up in the air it's not even funny. SD-DVD's gonna be around for quite some time.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Okay - the last of my MPEGs was sent to Obi-Skywalker. Get ready for some links in my Info thread.

Here are the links to the MPEGs. Get'em while they're hot!

Obi-wan/Vader duel: 22 Mbs

Luke shoots: 12 Mbs

Vader-Leia confrontation: 12 Mbs

Tantive flyover - 4x3: 9 Mbs

Tantive flyover - 16x9: 9 Mbs

All done! Now I can finish downloading Parker Lewis.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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I guess no one's watching them.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Those are untouched MPEGs from the master AVIs. That's about as close to the actual laserdisc picture as I can get. I do intend to touch the final MPEG up a little, but these are for reference. Are your monitors calibrated?
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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This is just my opinion, but I think it would be very beneficial to make some adjustments to the brightness and contrast levels. As you probably already know, the levels are different for the first 10 mins or so of ANH than they are for the rest. What I've been doing this week is working with the first 10 mins. and color correcting each shot individually. Playing around in Adobe Premiere, I've been able to take that bland, semi-washed out LD capture and make the blacks look black and the whites look white, all in all removing that awefull yellowish tone as well. I would encourage you to do something like this as well. That gray starfield is just painful to look at.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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"This is just my opinion, but I think it would be very beneficial to make some adjustments to the brightness and contrast levels."

Actually, I've been tinkering with those, but I wanted to show the raw version for comparison's sake. It does make some improvements. Maybe I'll make some MPEGs showing a half & half pic with the adjustments.

"That gray starfield is just painful to look at."

True, but ironically, it gives the scene more visual depth as well. It takes a long time to find a good balance in the AVI that transfers over to the MPEG (not to mention the fact that I finally got my software DVD player working correctly. I can't believe how off that damn thing was!) Remember how many details were lost in your previous "dark" transfer?!? I want to preserve as many of those details as I can.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Just had a look m8, and they are, erm... very bright. Didn´t know the laserdisc source is that greyish. I guess some brightness tweaking was done to the TR47 version because I just compared your shots to that one and it´s much darker. Other then that they look good and serve as a good template for you to tweak to perfection. Good luck m8.
peace,

Rebelscum
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I have to agree with the others about the bright levels. Also, there are many instances of combing artifacts in the "luke shoots" sample (try frames 15, 135, 139, 143, 371...).
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There has to be a "golden middleground" here like with everything else in life. Too much blackness and you loose detail, to little of it and it just looks plain bad. With this sort of stuff it´s endless compromises and hopefully finding the right balance. I think the TR47 version has done just that so make sure you compare your transfers directly to it. It´s the best finished one out there IMO, no doubt. Improve upon it and you guys rock!
peace,

Rebelscum
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"I have to agree with the others about the bright levels."

Okay, once again. THIS IS HOW IT IS ON THE LASERDISC! This is a raw capture from a calibrated player. This is NOT the final product. Any issues people may have with the brightness reflect directly on the LD transfer itself.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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"Also, there are many instances of combing artifacts in the "luke shoots" sample (try frames 15, 135, 139, 143, 371...)."

The MPEG does show this, but they are not in the AVI. It must be from the 2-3 pulldown. I'm not sure how to remedy this.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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The real question is:
Does it still look 'too light' when mastered to DVD, and do the combing artifacts appear 'when played on a TV with a dvd player'

Mastering to DVD changes to levels quite a bit, and the artifacts you are seeing on the computer *may* be caused by your player. The real test is to put them out to DVD and check them on a TV set.

Also, you are better off maintaining the full greyscale range, and adjusting your TVs down to get black where you want it - otherwise you just get crushed blacks and a loss of detail. (Although some people think at first glance it is a better picture all dark, in the dark scenes you can't see anything)
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Agreed. I'd rather have the grey background of space than "twinkly" starfields that are terribly distracting. That being said, Vegas has a "restore black" function that allows you to expand the darkest colors without messing with brightness and contrast.

"So is combustion working now?"

Actually, it always "worked". I was able to correct, render, and save a workspace of the first 2 minutes of SW. The next 2 minutes, it rendered, but didn't save changes (and yes, I did update it.) So, I'll just render as I go along. No biggie.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.