(The Mandalorian+BoBF) The Way of Mandalore | A Legends Movie Saga (Final Update in Progress: 5/6 Done) — Page 25

Patali said:

I have not watched season 3, so some of that is going over my head, but on the other hand, having not watched it I think it gives me a good perspective.

Oh, interesting! That does give a very unique perspective for analysis here. Yeah, you might be confused by the discussion as you’re jumping into one of the final scenes from that movie here, but you’ll be a good judge of if it makes sense in a vacuum.

First off, assuming a lot or most of those Armorer lines are AI… they sound really good. And the dialogue itself from her I think sounds well written.

Yes, 100% AI there. I’ve rewritten some more in a draft #2 I’ll share below.

Bo Katan’s responses, I assume from the real show in a different context, something sounds a little off, it doesn’t quite sound like she is responding to what the Armorer is stating. There is a different emotional level, I can tell the context is different there. But to be honest, if I was just watching the movie I probably wouldn’t notice it much.

Yes, maybe it was a little bit off. I’ve tried to use Dimitrios’ suggested structure this time around which should hopefully make her reactions feel more natural.

TheDimitrios said:

I tried a few things here, primarily to gibe additional reasoning to the armorers decision to choose this moment to make a helmet exception
…

Thanks! Some of that isn’t totally possible to use in its entirety as I’m limited by the available timing between the real lines, but I’ve uploaded a new preview to combine some of your ideas with a little rewrite on my end as well. Let me know what you think! Bo-No-Helmet Demo 2

Also working on a Fennec AI model to help as well, so give me some feedback here if you don’t mind. Almost all of Din’s lines are generated as well. Fennec AI Model test

And finally, I’m trying to go all out to make this last film full of little legends references and really want to let some creativity shine here. So I have tossed in a bunch of fun easter eggs throughout, here’s just one example of something in the background soundtrack: Easer Eggs Galore

TheDimitrios said:

The Armorer Convo is getting close.

The beginning of line regarding the fallen Forge being her grave is not clearly audible I think. (The first 2 or 3 words), but the conversation itself flows nicely now in my opinion.

Sweet, yeah the line reads themselves aren’t the goal yet, some sound good and can be used but some are just placeholders until I find the actual dialogue script writing to finalize and then I’ll generate 100 different takes until it makes a read that I like. I’ll wait for another review on the writing itself before trying to finish up all the audio quality.

With the Mando scene in Tattoine a few exchanges sound tonally disconnected. If you happen to have a script for that as a basis, I could toss some ideas around. 😃

Keep in mind that on this scene we are a bit more limited as some of the lines have to match Fennec’s mouth movements well enough to not cause a distraction. The show itself dubs over people on many occasions and not every viewer notices it as they try to disguise it, but it has to be done in a way that feels at least somewhat natural.

P: Well…How is it?

D: Purring like a Loth cat.

P: Oh, hey Grandpa…

D: I’m here on business.

P: Oh, are the Hutts back? You checking on Boba Fett?

D: Actually, I am looking for him.

P: Boring! Oh, by the way an old friend of yours dropped by. Said she was looking for you.

D: A friend of mine?

P: Don’t worry, I told her I didn’t know where you were then I locked her out and engaged The Hanger security system.

D: She tell you her name?

F: Fennec Shand!

P: I thought you said that the hanger security system was up? Don’t get away from me you come right back here…

D: Fennec Shand.

F: By any chance are you looking for work?

D: This is an unexpected surprise.

F: I was looking for you.

D: What is this bag of credits for?

F: A job offer. We need help dealing with the Pykes.

D: I was hoping to talk with Boba about Mandalore.

F: I’m sure he would consider it.

D: You can keep the credits. Tell him it’s on the house, but also tell him that I’m going to need a favor from him in return.

The Star Tours easteregg is not too obvious, had to listen to it twice to actually get it.

Perfect! That’s just how an easter egg should be placed.

TheDimitrios said:
Yeah, if I could reccomend, I think shortening some of Mando’s lines would make it more in line with his character and help with the model not sounding so stilted (“What. Is. This. Bag. Of. Credits. For.” or instead just “What’s this?”)
…
You’ll have to review the timing to let me know if these would work, but I think overall it would be an improvement. Din’s not the kind of guy who’s gonna fly there “hoping” to speak with Boba. He’s going to speak to Boba.

Okay, I like those suggestions. Try this!

vranir said:

I think fewer non-English lines from the Armorer when they are outside would help. She doesn’t often speak in the Mando language in other scenes.

Hmm, it’s only 2 lines over a 90-second scene. Which one of those sounded excessive? There is a lot more Mandalorian culture in this film, and I am planning on going back to integrate more Mando’a through the series too.

Otherwise, this is very good. I’m not a professional, but this sounds quite passable to me. I love that this pays off the small eye-contact interaction from the Mythosaur encounter that the vanilla show made very little of.

Thanks, lots of good community ideas helped! I’ll keep working on it and tinkering in the meantime.

Dimitrios, that’s a really good direction.

Patali said:

I think it sounds a lot more natural. Though your model for Din is not as strong as the one you have for the Armorer. But that’s less of a shot against your other models and more of a testament to how good her’s sounds, it’s really good. I imagine it’s something in the way the actress chose to deliver the Armoer’s lines, the AI is able to use that specific inflection more easily than the more general dialogue of someone like Din.

Agreed, I think many of the Armorer lines are nearly undetectable, but sometimes the Din model works and sometimes it doesn’t. I’ve tried a lot of different models for him, and I still can’t quite get it perfect (I have a new attempt below for you to check out though). Part of the challenge is how differently the character speaks in Season 1 v Season 3, Pedro really evolved the character’s performance over time, and once he started recording audio not on set it sounded different again. Sometimes Din speaks in an extremely monotone way, and sometimes he has emotional inflections slip in, but the models struggle to know when to do that naturally.

I like the mythosaur line. Only thing I noticed, idk how your subtitles for the in universe languages work, if its baked in or not. But it felt like I had to read that subtitle really quickly.

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I can alter the timing of that and see if it helps.

TheDimitrios said:
A thought that crossed my mind: The normal Mandos have the belief in the darksaber, the CotW the belief in the Mythosaur, both indicating the true leader of Mandalore.
The darksaber gets destroyed, but Bo Katan still is accepted as a leader. Not knowing your exact plans, maybe it is possible to do something with this thematic connection to resolve the darksaber thing which was kinda brushed aside in the show?

You already established that belief in the Mythosaur is belief in Mandalore. So what if the normal Mandos kinda also make a step towards the beliefs of the CotW. Mandalore has been retaken despite the darksaber being destroyed, so apparently (in their eyes at least), it was not the signifier they thought it was, so they accept the Mythosaur as a representation of Mandalore and the justification for Bo Katans claim to leadership.

This way each side would move a little bit towards the other. The CotW are less dogmatic about the helmet thing and the normal Mandos take on a core bit of belief of the CotW, with both groups now having a newly established common ground they can build upon, giving the Mandalorians as a people some nice growth.

Hope this was not too convoluted.

I definitely agree that there should be a clearer communication of newfound unity between the various factions of Mandalorians that precedes their reclaiming of Mandalore. The difficult part is finding places where I can drop in new lines that sound believable and tell the right story. I still don’t comprehend how the D+ version did this, with the whole “She defeated the enemy who defeated me” nonsense, the confusion about the Armorer’s “She walks both worlds” lines, the destruction of the Darksaber having no impact on any of the characters/factions, etc. Something else needs to happen with all of this if we want a satisfying conclusion to many of the Mandalorian lore plot threads that were set up over the previous content.

So this is with a new Din AI model (all Din lines here are 100% AI), but the writing itself was done prior to some of the recent work I did on the other scenes, so I’ll probably rewrite some of this to be more in line with the ideas we’ve been discussing recently. I had only remade all of the audio, I haven’t put the visuals on this yet, so you’ll just have to listen and read along for now, but this was an idea to occur during the Din-to-Bo Darksaber handoff scene. Audio here!

Script:

AW: The ruler of Mandalore must possess the darksaber.

DD: Then she shall have it… This belongs to you.

BK: It’s not a gift to be given, no matter how well intended.

DD: The darksaber, much like the mask of Mand’alor, is more than mere tradition. It’s a symbol, a beacon for those who would lead. It’s not about the method of acquisition. It’s about belief… in true leadership. This darksaber, the mask of Mand’alor, they’ve guided us, yes, but they do not define us. We follow the one who leads, not because they hold a symbol, but because we believe in their vision for Mandalore. We stand here not as adversaries, but as kin, bound by the Creed and the soil of our homeworld. Mandalore thrives not under the rule of the mightiest warrior, but under the guidance of the one who unites. It’s not just about wielding the darksaber or wearing a mask. It’s about what you stand for, Bo-Katan. Your dedication to our people, to our home… You have fought for Mandalore, bled for it. If this blade is to be wielded by the leader that we believe in most, I ask you all… Would it not belong to her? Would it not belong to her?

AW: It would.

DD: Then I give you this blade and decree you, Mand’alor te Solus (Mand’alor the Unifier).

Some of that should be altered with our recent ideas, so… Dimitrios, you’re up 😉

Darth Sadifous said:

I liked the idea of Din’s exchange with Fennec, but will the final cut do more to mimic the actor’s lips when delievering new AI line? The reason I ask is because it is obvious in some places Fennec’s mouth is not moving when the new AI lines are delivered to Din.

Yes, when she says “We need help dealing with the Pykes,” it’s obviously too long of a line considering her mouth movements, so some of the lines will be tweaked to match the lip sync. Usually, when I work, I try to build the whole film from start-to-finish with the story in mind first, maybe making a few rough drafts of audio/visuals, then once I have everything story locked I go back scene by scene and try to work on the technical aspects. Since this last film is a lot more to deal with than the previous ones, and I am taking way more creative liberty to attempt to address some of the common criticisms with Season 3 material, it’s taking much longer to get a functional story in place before I even get to the technical aspects. There are still a number of scenes I need to roto out Grogu from too in this one.

Patali said:

I like the writing, both yours and Dimitirios versions, but… this would probably be the biggest monologue Din has had in the series, right? To me, that is too much weight to give to AI, it will come off flat compared to what the moment should be. I think it has to be a lot shorter unfortunately. Narrow it down to 3 or 5 of the best lines yall can come up with. Thats just my opinion.

(I think the AI did good on that line “It’s about what you stand for Bo Katan”. Which is funny because it does it with a less serious voice than the rest of the monologue, but yet that managed to sound more natural as a result. Not saying that should be one of the lines, but js it did sound good imo).

Edit: Just to be clear, the idea of Din standing up and making these decisions for his people, and having a big monologue, I think is cool and great development for him. But I just doubt these AI models will be able to pull off the weight that is required for ab extensive monologue, for what should be one of his biggest character development moments.

I watched a video of Gary Oldman recently talking about Chris Nolan. And he said while they were filming a scene in batman, after one of the takes Nolan gave him one piece of direction which was “There’s more at stake.” And that was all Oldman needed to turn the notch up on the emotion and the weight needed for the scene. I feel like that’s what I want to tell this AI lol

Yes, this would be one of the longest speaking sections for Din, so perhaps it’s just too out of character for him to deliver a speech in the first place? Though compare this test to the original scene. I don’t know if I’d call that “emotion” in the first place, I guess you can say he projects his voice out like yelling more, but it’s so short and still quite monotone. I wish I could replicate a mixture of this in my model though, I think just that extra oomf in the delivery would make the difference. But here’s the script of the original scene:

BK: It’s not a gift to be given, no matter how well intended.

DD: It’s not a gift. While exploring Mandalore, I was captured, and this blade was taken from me. Bo Katan rescued me and slayed my captor. She defeated the enemy that defeated me. Would this blade then not belong to her? Would it not belong to her?

AW: It would.

DD: I return this blade to its rightful owner.

Yikes! Not great… But if we want to keep a similar depiction of stoic but somewhat emotional Din, that’s all the time we have to work with. How do we devise a compromise here where we can still communicate a sensible story without needing Din to go out of character by talking too much?

TheDimitrios said:

How about this (needs more “pathos”, more about the general idea):

DD: Your people believe it is to be earned in combat, i know. But you did not loose Mandalore, because you accepted this weapon as a gift. You lost Mandalore because our tribes were splintered, caught in a cycle of fighting each other. Mandalorians have fought over beliefs, grudges and… this weapon. If the darksaber really is meant to be a symbol of our unity, we must not fight each other over it. It shall be a gift, given from one Mandalorian to another… one tribe to another… Because we are one people. Exiled from our home. Wouldnt it be our best chance to retake our home… together?

I think making the “rules” behind the darksaber a parallel to the Mandalorian infighting of the tribes has some potential. It also sets up the lesser importance of the weapon, making the unification of the tribes Bo Katans claim to fame.

I like some of the ideas in here, just gotta figure out a way to get the delivery to feel right now too. Season 3 had so many technicalities for plotlines that were barely discussed, and they even did it again with “Din Grogu” at the very end. So, so many conversations about bending the rules with barely a sentence or two to explain why it’s happening. Kind of frustrating.

edit:
As to the resolution of the Mandalore storyline. Since there is a good Armorer Model around, maybe a few scenic shots of Mandalore with a voiceover of her could do the trick? She could talk about how after the retaking of Mandalore and the destruction of the darksaber the tribes united in the belief in the Mythosaur and Bo Katan (who bears his symbol). It breaks the “show dont tell” rule, but since we have to work with what we got, it might be worth considering.

I really like this idea too, and there is room for it in some scenes during the final sequence. Maybe to even replace some of that “Din Grogu” technicality. Not to get rid of that name or anything, but they get all the way up to Grogu about to be baptized and then have a mini argument and bend another rule at the last second… Just a tiring trend so I’ll look at cleaning up that sequence with some Armorer lines too.

Here is a v2 attempt at making an emotional Din voice model for the Darksaber scene.

“The darksaber, much like the mask of Mand’alor, is more than mere tradition. It’s a symbol, a beacon of leadership and unity. Mandalore was not lost because this weapon was accepted as a gift. Our downfall was due to our divisions, our ceaseless conflicts among ourselves. It’s not about the method of acquisition. It’s about belief… Belief in our leader’s vision for Mandalore. We stand here not as adversaries, not as foreigners, but as kin, bound by the soil of our homeworld. If the Darksaber truly is a symbol of our unity, then it should be a gift, passed from one Mandalorian to another. You have fought for Mandalore, bled for it. Your dedication to our people, to our home… You deserve to lead us. If this blade is to be wielded by the leader we believe in most, then I ask you all… Would it not belong to her? Would it not belong to her?”

I think this one is a marked improvement over the first attempt, maybe a few lines in there that could be replaced, but what do you guys think? How do you compare it to Din’s original explanation/delivery?

vranir said:

It seems a little long to me. It may be better with the visuals.

As far as how it sounds, the only line that struck me as really awkward was the words “for Mandalore” after “leader’s vision.” You could probably even just cut out those two words without losing any meaning.

I think it’s running a little bit too long as well. The video is not done yet because, like the Ugnaught preview above, the original takes have Bo-Katan’s head placements all over the screen and are inconsistent between cuts, gotta fix it first and sync everything with the selected dialogue.

What if I cut the segment around the part that sounded awkward?

“The Darksaber, much like the Mask of Mand’alor, is more than mere tradition. It’s a symbol, a beacon of leadership and unity. Mandalore was not lost because this weapon was accepted as a gift. Our downfall was due to our divisions… our ceaseless conflicts among ourselves. It’s not about the method of acquisition. It’s about belief… Belief in our leader’s vision for Mandalore. We stand here not as adversaries, not as foreigners, but as kin, bound by the soil of our homeworld. If the Darksaber truly is a symbol of our unity, then it should be a gift, passed from one Mandalorian to another. You have fought for Mandalore… bled for it. Your dedication to our people, to our home… You deserve to lead us. If this blade is to be wielded by the leader we believe in most, then I ask you all… Would it not belong to her? Would it not belong to her?”

That still plays well with the story and removes some perhaps unnecessary talking. I’ve listened to A LOT of Din lines over the last year of editing, and I’m pretty confident in how this model is delivering his lines. A few could be touched up but it’s pretty damn close, and I’d say indistinguishable on parts.

g00b said:

I think the new lines work VERY well. I don’t think you should cut anything. I honestly don’t mind Din talking for a while here. With all the tension that builds up at the Season 2 Mando finale, we need a strong reason why Din and Bo don’t fight each other and I think this monologue works to explain that on a few levels.

Firstly, this monologue is a fight (both with Bo and the wider Mandalorians), so to cut it down makes the ‘fight’ easier.

Thanks for the feedback! Love the analogy of this moment being akin to a real fight, similar to how Bo-Katan just had to duel Axe Woves physically, now Din has to come in and duel him mentally. I have also sprinkled in lines throughout this film and the last one about how Din doesn’t want to fight Bo, just like at the end of Season 2. He stays consistent on this matter and has been trying to prove his point for some time, so this is the final culmination. He deserves a spotlight here.

Secondly, it helps build Din’s character. He’s no longer just traveling the galaxy solo bounty hunting. He’s lost Grogu by reuniting him with his perceived ‘family’ of the Jedi. He’s now looking to reconcile the Mandalorian’s to fill the void of not having Grogu as his family. Because of this, he’s now willing to lay down his weapons in pursuit of unity and I think this speech conveys that strongly. He wasn’t willing to do this before with Paz Vizsla but he is now. This is development that he completely missed out on in the original season 3 (although, it seems to be what they originally intended for him).

Absolutely! Great take on his characterization and growth. I think that comes across in this new speech.

I think your v2 attempt covers everything we need functionally for the story to work AND develops Din further. I think it’s awesome and you should keep it as is 😃

I am planning to cut just the two indicated lines, mostly for the sake of putting it to visuals, I don’t have infinite source footage to pull from. I have a first draft below of this new scene.

Darth Sadifous said:

I think it sounds pretty good, but reserve judgment until seeing it with visuals which I know you say is coming. Din does sound like he has slipped an ambien sometimes, but I just think that is how his character comes across especially with a modulated voice. I think it is just more apparent in this monologue because normally he is a man of few words so such a long speech may take a little getting use to.

Wish AI could be given some prompt to put more inflection into the voice based on mood. However, I am still in awe of how far the tech has come in just a year. Really looking forward to this final book. Thanks for putting in all the hard work acbagel.

Haha, yeah Din is popping xannys on the regular for sure. So I found the longest Din monologue from the D+ show and want to show this for comparison before you watch the demo scene. This is his speech to Bo-Katan on Mandalore, a good 40 seconds of straight dialogue. Listen to this delivery first.

And then compare it to my newly drafted scene with AI + video.

I think the performances are quite close, and definitely at least believable. Maybe not a knock-it-out-of-the-park delivery from AI-Pedro, but compare it to the original show’s 18 second “speech” of You defeated that robot 5 episodes ago so here’s your darksaber, sorry for hogging it for so long… I know that as a fan of the show, I 100% would’ve preferred a slightly flatter performance that delivers the story well compared to a tad more emotional but nonsensical and disappointing explanation for the Darksaber being passed off.

Agree? Disagree? Are these worthwhile changes or straying too far from the intentions of the show?