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The Mace Windu Debate

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There has been much discussion lately about whether or not Mace Windu did in fact die in ROTS. At first I supported the idea that he survived, but now, I have changed my mind. OK, here's the deal. Though I have wished that canon would prove that he didn't die, I cannot come to that conclusion based on what has been given in the official continuity. Lucas' and other actors' statements cannot be taken into account if we only base Windu's survival on official continuity. The producers' remarks have no bearing on the sory, in less they actually write these ideas specifically into their stories. Based on the levels of canon, I have concluded that Mace Windu did in fact die in ROTS. Here is why:

FACTS SUPPOTING HIS SURVIVAL:

-ROTS did not specifically mention, nor show Windu's death, it only implied this. The Jedi as well, do not discuss the fact that he died. They seem to forget it.

-In the CW animated series, he was able to jump and fall extremely high distances.

-In AOTC he was able to do the same (ending CW battle)

-In AOTC, the Jedi (Anakin and Obi-Wan) were shown to be able to slow themselves when falling, and grab on to nearby objects. They both had a method in which they slowed themselves, by fully extending their bodies, to slow the fall

-Mace was considered one of the greatest jedi next to Yoda, not just some regular jedi, but more powerful than most.

-Mace had learned to master the force and fighting so well that he created his own fighting style, Vapaad. This fighting style was a balance between the dark and light sides. He was one of the few who could master it without falling to the dark side. This is what allowed him to go up against and nearly defeat Sidious by himself. Without Anakin, he possibly could have defeated Sidious. Whether sidious was simply faking his defeat when Anakin walked into the room is still unknown, however.

-He could have possibly went into hiding, reallizing the threat the empire posed to the jedi, and knew what would happened if he returned. He could have went into hiding and become one of the Jedi who hid and were on the run from the empire in the lost years between ROTS and ANH. Windu could have been killed during that 19 year time period, only the future EU works will reveal this!

FACTS AGAINST HIS SURVIVAL:

-The ROTS novelization states clearly that Mace did in fact die.

-He does not appear in any later episodes, or in the rest of ROTS for that matter.

-He has yet to appear in any official in-continuity Expanded Universe works.

-The Jedi as well, do not discuss the fact that he died. They seem to forget it.

-Mace, in just a few seconds had his fighting arm cut off, was shocked with force lightning, went through extreme pain due to the force lightning, was likely very shocked mentally that he had been shocked physically by force lightning and had had his hand cut off, and finally, he was thrown far out a window into the coriscant traffic.

-Being thrown into traffic, Mace ran the risk of being hit by a vehicle, or quickly crashing into a close object before being able to save himself through the force and using the special powers he had been shown to have.

MY EXPLANATION:
Despite his great abilities shown in the official canon, Windu was overtaken by the combination of the sith lord, Darth Sidious, and the soon to be sith lord, Anakin Skywalker. Windu could have likely survived without Anakin's intervention. Through extreme shock and pain he was thown out a window. At this point, the debate beins. Yes, based on official sources he died. All except one. Now, the movie never explicitly says that he dies. It only implies it. So, it never says he does or doesn't survive. It leaves it ope. However, according to the levels of continuity, the movies take precedence over the books. Well, since the movie never says "yes, he died" or "no, he didn't die," the book does. The book answers that question. It says he dies. Since the movie never says. The book does, it says he dies. Since it says that, he did. storywise, continuity wise, he did. And since he is no longer mentioned, nor does he return anywhere in continuity, and could have been killed easily from falling, due to several reasons listed previously, his demise is even more likely.

Note:
Sadly, Lucas chose to follow the movie cliche of having the black man die, but in this case, that had to happen due to the story situation. Of course, Windu could have been reincarnated as Mace Towani. He could have wanted his name to be mace to reflect his past life. And, well, the ewok movies he was in take place after episode III, so, you never know! But that is another discussion!

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Yeah, I wished he would have survived, at first I tried to prove he did, then looked at the situation better and reallised the truth.
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I think the whole Mace/Sidious scene seemed very rushed, and wasn't helped by Anakin's ridiculously speedy turn to the Dark Side. Whether or not Mace was supposed to live or die, I can't imagine why it would be left ambiguous, unless it was just sloppy storytelling, which wouldn't be a shock in the prequels. Plus, the ambiguousness is even more perplexing when considering the aforementioned absence of the character (or at least the character's name) in other SW stories.

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Whether sidious was simply faking his defeat when Anakin walked into the room is still unknown, however


I thought it was pretty obvious that he was "faking" it for Anakin's sake, so Anakin would intervene and take care of Windu. Like, "Oh no, help me, this bad man is hurting me!" But again, the scene was kinda sloppy, and could've been done more smoothly/naturally.

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Sadly, Lucas chose to follow the movie cliche of having the black man die


Lando lived-- score another point for the OT.
We don't have enough road to get up to 88.
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Why would people support the fact that Mace Windu died? Maybe there's a reason that George needs to spell things out .

Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the war room!

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Well, guys, I love to sepeculate. Lucas and SLJ have said many times that they intended for Mace to die. I was just trying to do one of my old Nathan Butler ChronoRadio style speculations.
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wow you have gave this subject some thought, interesting.
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You know, I wrote this because, for me, an answer from Uncle George isn't good enough. I had to find answers strictly in the continuity. So, what most people just assume, I proved in a way above.
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Most Fett fanboys believe Boba got out of the Sarlacc pit, so I have no problem with Mace surviving. He could have easily lost his memory and is living unnoticed among the denizens in the lower levels of Coruscant, eventually to be discovered by Luke in Episode 7.
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Where were you in '77?

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I do believe that Fett survived. Unlike Mace, it can be proven that he survived. The EU graciously supports this. Since the movies never say specifically, and the EU does, that means he's alive. I've always thought of the possibility of Bail Organa surviving the destruction of Aldaraan. In that I mean he could have been away from his planet when it was destroyed. Though Leia never mentions or sees him again, so it's not likely. Most take it as common sense that he died. But, you never know. The whole debate on the emperor, you never know on that either. He might have climbed out of the pit after grabbing on to some object on the walls of the shaft. I strongly believe though, that Mace died. If it weren't for the book saying he died, I would agree with SilverWook.
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The only reason this debate even exists is because George went overboard with the whole Superjedi premise in the prequels, giving them crazy badass skills far, far, FAR beyond regular people. Obviously Jedi are supposed to be able to perform feats that are beyond regular people. That's a no-brainer. They have a great degree of athleticism, and they can do things through the force. The prequels, however, allow them to do every kind of aerial acrobatics short of actually flying. So the fact that Mace Windu dies by falling out of a high window was poorly done and left more ambiguous than it should have been, based on abilities of the Jedi as demonstrated throughout the previous two movies. That's George's own fault in his writing. That said, I think Mace is dead. Not everything has to be explicitly stated, and this is one of the few things in the prequels that is not explicitly stated. The fact that he's dead is implicitly stated well enough that we know George's intention is for Mace to be dead. It just doesn't necessarily hold continuity-wise. Speculation is fun, though, and what better place than a forum to demonstrate it?

Then again, though, I don't necessarily believe your canon heirarchy. Pretty much the only things you can accept as canon is what happens in the movies. The books are probably pretty reputable, though, because they're officially licensed adaptations, and I think George wouldn't let it through if it explicitly (there's that word again) defied canon. However, I think the buck stops there. I don't think that you can positively identify Boba Fett as alive simply because the Expanded Universe says he is. In the movie, he is implicitly dead. So just because no canon explicitly says that he is, that doesn't make the Expanded Universe canon. Based on that system, if the EU hadn't said anything about it either, does that mean that fanfiction that said Boba Fett was alive be considered canon? Because, really, fanfiction is just unpublished EU, right?

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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OK, there are official levels of canon, set forth by Lucasfilm in 1991, around the time Heir to the Empire was written. In this system, the movies, the six episodes, that is, take precedence over all other works. Lucasfilm considers canon anything that does not conflict the movies. All works are equal, if they don't contradict each other. This makes the entire saga one big, complete story. In this case, although it is implied that Mace died, it was never stated in the movie, or shown. Yes, that does leave it open. I'm guessing Lucas didn't think about such small details when he wrote the story. The book says he died. In this case, the movie can't take precedence, because it doesn't hold a position, it only implies what happened. It does not contradict the level of canon which is right under it, which are the novelizations of the films. Since there is no contradiction, we must find our answer in the book. What I meant by Fett surviving was similar. ROTJ never specifically said he died. It just showed him falling into the sarlac. Since the movie doesn't specifically tell what happened, we must look down a level at the EU, which says he lived, therefor, he lived. The bottom line: All things that don't contradict the movies and higher levels of canon are part of the actual star wars story, and "happened," film or not. Now, fan fiction is not part of the story of Lucasfilm at all, so it cannot explain anything in star wars, no matter if the EU explains something or not. Fan Fiction is not unpublished EU material by the way, because it is not sanctioned by Lucasfilm. It is mere fan speculation and ideas, not the ideas of those officially given the opportunity to tell part of the official star wars story. It all has to be looked at like this: with a historical event, you can only rely on actual records and people invilved in the event to solve what actually happened. Written records take precedence over the reports from the people, let's say. These are official reports. But fan fiction is the same as if someone decided they knew what happened in the past, but they just made it up, see what I'm saying? According to Lucasfilm, here are the Star Wars levels of officiality:

1. The current version of the episodes
2. Earlier versions of the episodes
3. The novelizations of the episodes
4. The radio dramas of the episodes
5. The EU books and other media that don't contradict the films
6. The EU books and other media that do contradict the films

How do I know this? I listened to an intense two-hour canon lecture on Chrono Radio.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The only reason this debate even exists is because George went overboard with the whole Superjedi premise in the prequels, giving them crazy badass skills far, far, FAR beyond regular people. Obviously Jedi are supposed to be able to perform feats that are beyond regular people. That's a no-brainer. They have a great degree of athleticism, and they can do things through the force. The prequels, however, allow them to do every kind of aerial acrobatics short of actually flying. So the fact that Mace Windu dies by falling out of a high window was poorly done and left more ambiguous than it should have been, based on abilities of the Jedi as demonstrated throughout the previous two movies. That's George's own fault in his writing.


I would have to disagree with that. Of course they'll have skills beyond regular people, that's what makes them Jedi. But if you take Windu, who has his arm cut off and thrown out of window (after being hit by force lightning) its very unlikely he would survive. They aren't invincible.

In any case, the whole point to the "balance of the force" prophecy is that in the end, the force is balanced. Two dark jedi (Vader and Palpatine) and two light Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda). So it's doubtful Mace was meant to survive.

Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the war room!

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Whether or not he was meant to survive is not the case, it's whether or not the story allows him to survive.
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I'm not sure how much we can take about the novelizations being canon, after all some novelizations contradict what is in the movies, specially the OT novelizations. I know that Lucasfilm recently changed their position on this, claiming that if a book has a minor contradiction over the films, the book (or videogame or comic book or tv show) shouldn't be ignored, only that small contradicting fact. Right?

About Mace: well, to me, he was unconscious when he falled, and therefore he died. When a Jedi falls from a great high, he must be absolutely focused and concentrated on what he is doing and where is he falling - take the AOTC Coruscant chase as an example of that. So, if Mace was even a bit distracted - let alone unconcious - there was no way he could have survived. Maybe GL should have made it more explicit, by either having Anakin cut though his guts with his lightsaber, or showing Mace's fall, or even showing him hitting a huge flying truck as he falled through the window.

One thing that always bothered me about characters falling down on the PT is the recue of Palpatine in ROTS... I mean, ok he was a sith lord and whatever, but he was "supposed" to be this old man with no proper phisical training, could have he done what he did, like falling down from the elevator shaft and getting up unharmed?
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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The only reason this debate even exists is because George went overboard with the whole Superjedi premise in the prequels, giving them crazy badass skills far, far, FAR beyond regular people. Obviously Jedi are supposed to be able to perform feats that are beyond regular people. That's a no-brainer. They have a great degree of athleticism, and they can do things through the force. The prequels, however, allow them to do every kind of aerial acrobatics short of actually flying. So the fact that Mace Windu dies by falling out of a high window was poorly done and left more ambiguous than it should have been, based on abilities of the Jedi as demonstrated throughout the previous two movies. That's George's own fault in his writing.


I would have to disagree with that. Of course they'll have skills beyond regular people, that's what makes them Jedi. But if you take Windu, who has his arm cut off and thrown out of window (after being hit by force lightning) its very unlikely he would survive. They aren't invincible.

In any case, the whole point to the "balance of the force" prophecy is that in the end, the force is balanced. Two dark jedi (Vader and Palpatine) and two light Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda). So it's doubtful Mace was meant to survive.


I'm not saying I think he survived. I think he's dead as a doornail. I was just saying that the reason people debate whether or not he's alive is because it has been shown before that Jedi can survive falling from great heights and being struck by Palpatine force lightning. So I say it's poor writing on George's part because he either should have toned back the Jedi powers or written Mace's death in a way that didn't have a possibility of contradicting said powers.

And Adam, I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear on what I said before. Yes, I know that the EU books are sanctioned by LFL. My comparison to fanfiction simply meant that both the EU and fanfiction are written by fans of the series who continue it how they want to. It's not like the movie adaptations where authors are given the story to convert into book. They have pretty much free reign to write what they want, provided that they don't disrupt the continuity of the other EU books. See what I'm saying? I know it's really all up to opinion how much the EU can be considered canon. I'm still slightly torn myself. It depends on the situation. But in the case of Boba Fett, you really do have a choice. I don't have to say that he's definitely alive because the EU said so. I can believe what I want to because the EU is really kind of semi-canon. What I disagree with is that, in order for someone to die, it has to specifically stated that he died. As in, Boba falls into the sarlaac pit, and suddenly Jabba yells, "Boba Fett is dead!" The sarlaac pit is described as, "a new definition of pain and suffering as you are slowly digested over a thousand years." That pretty much implies that one who falls into the sarlaac pit is going to die. Obviously, the fact that it's not an instant death provides it with the loophole that the EU writer used to get him out. But it never says how long it takes for him to die. Obviously, Fett's not going to be lying in there alive for a thousand years. That's simply how long it takes for his body to be digested. He could die after a few days or maybe a month... maybe several painful hours. But I think the movie implies well enough that Fett is dead. You don't necessarily have to have someone say that he's dead for him to be dead. No one ever says that Vader is dead, or that Jabba is dead, but no one really argues that point.

And current versions of the episodes being #1 canon. Well, in a sense I suppose you're right about that. I simply refuse to accept Special Edition changes as being canon, but that's just me being a stubborn old crummudgeon. ^_^

There is no lingerie in space...

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don't exist... then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks... and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming... Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Anyone can have their own canon, that's OK, I was just using Lucasfilm's position on canon to explain whether or not he died. According to them and their policy, Fett lived. According to them, Windu died. Yeah, honestly anyone can have whatever opinion they want, I was only trying to explain it from their point of view.
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who is this "mace windu" character you are talking about, i dont remember him ever being mentioned in any real star wars film?

















Mace Windu = next boba fett
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Originally posted by: Kingsama
who is this "mace windu" character you are talking about, i dont remember him ever being mentioned in any real star wars film?



Mace Windu = next boba fett


Ha-- yeah, I think in the event of an Episode 7, Windu will have a cameo and wink at the camera.

Or, if it's filmed many years from now, and S.L. Jackson as passed on, then a CG Windu wink.
We don't have enough road to get up to 88.
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Personally, I don't have any problems with the prequel trilogy. I grew up both with it and the classic trilogy. I saw TPM, then ANH, ESB, ROTJ, AOTC, then ROTS. I was sort of forced to accept all of them as THE star wars films. IMHO, the two trilogies are just two different ways of looking at the same overall story.
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The question is, how far would Lucas have had to go to convince you that Boba Fett or Mace Windu were dead? Would he have to zoom the camera inside their rib cages so that we can watch their heartbeats slow to a complete stop?! Would he have to show the same scene a few weeks later so that we can watch their corpses decompose?! Nobody does this in movies - it's bloody ridiculous. Boba and Mace are dead. CANON dead. One of the worst aspects of the PT is having GL slap you in the face with the obvious at every turn, and now comes ONE scene (finally!) where he doesn't, and you give creedence to his patronisation by assuming that because you don't see every stage of Fett's and Windu's respective deaths, that they aren't dead!

Windu died a bloody, bone-crushing death - his fried, bloody corpse splattered by either the traffic or Coruscant's city floor.

Fett died in the belly of the Sarlacc (which didn't have a cruddy CG beak), where he was slowly digested over a period of a thousand years.

Both are implied to the point of OBVIOUS.
MTFBWY. Always.

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That's fine. It's great the way he did that scene. I agree with what you're saying. It's just that I thrive on details and the small things most don't notice. As insane as it may sound, I wanted to make sure the Lucasfilm policy on Canon would allow Mace to die. Mace, I believe died. Now Fett, I just can't accept that, and canon supports me on that one as well.
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What I can't accept is the fact that GL would actually approve of a novel claiming Boba Fett's survival. It's clear to me that the only reason he would allow this to happen is because Fett is 'cool' and marketable.
MTFBWY. Always.

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