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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 99

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I do think the fact that everyone is so engaged in the conversation about who Luke actually is, means TLJ was at least successful in some of its goals. That’s a question the film itself poses, and that people fall so adamantly on either side means that it did its job. I appreciate how challenging this movie is for fans, and it’s something that I think is good for the franchise to prevent it from becoming just another unspecial billion dollar property. It’s polarizing and controversial in all the right ways I think.

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NFBisms said:

I do think the fact that everyone is so engaged in the conversation about who Luke actually is, means TLJ was at least successful in some of its goals. That’s a question the film itself poses, and that people fall so adamantly on either side means that it did its job. I appreciate how challenging this movie is for fans, and it’s something that I think is good for the franchise to prevent it from becoming just another unspecial billion dollar property. It’s polarizing and controversial in all the right ways I think.

I agree. The film challenges our long lasting perceptions about many aspects of the series while remaining true to the spirit and canon and without shitting on anything that came before (my opinion, obviously, clearly people think the exact opposite).

The PT did the first part without managing to do the second part. Rogue One and TFA definitely did the second part, but not quite so much the first part (though I do think there is still something to say for TFA in this regard). TLJ does both.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Warbler said:

In that scene it kinda felt like they were doing this in the movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Same thing with the scene with reveal about Rey’s parents.

Sorry, but that is how it felt to me.

Maybe I can see how the lightsaber scene could be viewed that way, but I just don’t see why people were so dead-set on Rey’s parents being someone special!

Because she is someone special. Look at her force abilities. Without any training in TFA, she stopped Ren from reading her thoughts, she Jedi mind tricked the guard, she defeated Ren in the lightsaber battle. She is obviously very strong in the force, and it came from nowhere?

Or that TFA was totally, for sure implying that was the case. I for one would have been extremely pissed if she had been a Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine family member, and I was literally fist-pumping and whisper-yelling, “YES! YES! YES!” when Kylo told her her parents were nobodies. Because I am so sick of everybody in this freaking galaxy being related or having backstories tied to one another. It hasn’t been cool since 1980. That’s literally the only time it’s worked. It certainly didn’t work in 1983 when Luke and Leia became related. It didn’t work in 2002 when Boba Fett’s daddy fought Obi-Wan Kenobi. And it really, really, REALLY didn’t work in 2005 when Yoda and Chewbacca were BFFs. It just would have been another cheap rehash if Rey had been shoehorned into someone else’s family tree.

I suppose you do have a point here.


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I was just going to say, having special parents isn’t the only way to be special. These movies lost sight of that for a while, but it was always true. Hell, Anakin’s mom was a nobody.

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TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Edit: and I loved how she’s a nobody. Her parents being special would’ve been no excuse for her unrealistic abilities.

you guys did it! thank you guys so much! 😄

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Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Edit: and I loved how she’s a nobody. Her parents being special would’ve been no excuse for her unrealistic abilities.

I think that holds only if you think they are equal in the force which apparently they’re not. I’ve read somewhere that imbalance in the force diminishes or increases ones abilities in it. Perhaps that is the issue?

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Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

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I just registered so…hi all 😃

Just wanted to jump in to this discussion as I have been following the shitstorm this film has created. I really liked it. I felt like I did when I first watched the OT to a large degree. It has stayed with me for the last week and I’m quite excited about how JJ is going to finish it.

I liked the fact it didn’t follow a well worn path and surprised me. I liked the action and touching moments. I really liked that they made Luke more human and allowed him to redeem himself.

Cheers and kind regards.

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Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Edit: and I loved how she’s a nobody. Her parents being special would’ve been no excuse for her unrealistic abilities.

Rey’s character arc isn’t exactly the same as Luke’s though, right?

Luke’s problem and arc in the originals was dealing with his impatience and rashness, whereas Rey has been fine waiting her entire life. Her innate personality lended itself to the force, her idealism and patience allowing her to discover her abilities much easier than Luke. Which, granted, is kind of Mary-Sue-ish - but I don’t think Rey represents the hero’s journey in this trilogy. She’s not the analog to Luke like I think a lot of people assume. If anything, Finn takes that role.

If anything, Rey is on more of an emotional journey, like you said, about her being a nobody, and coming to terms with that. I know it’s kind of sexist to lump in the females from both trilogies, but she’s more like Leia’s character in the OT - the character who already kind of had their shit together. Leia doesn’t really grow or change as much as Luke or Han. She’s already a hero in her own right when we meet her, and her growth and change comes from things more abstract and emotional than whether or not she can overcome her own flaws.

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TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

Because that’s how the Force works.

George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977, and established it in his films.

If you’re going to play in someone else’s playground, you better learn to play by the rules.

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

  • Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
  • Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
  • Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
  • Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
  • Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
  • It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
  • Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

  • Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
  • New Republic controls most of the galaxy
  • FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
  • Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
  • In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
  • Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way, or to prevent any number of dark side users from rising under Snoke’s tutelage. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, if he still feels the Jedi should end with him. The alternative is, that he might be killed in his attempt to stop Snoke, Kylo, and the FO, resulting in the end of the Jedi, the same result if he does nothing. Doing nothing obviously is the worst choice, as it guarentees the worst outcome. Luke is just stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force. This is the same character, who could not be broken, even when everything he believed in turned out to be based on a lie. The same character who opted to sacrifice himself by letting himself fall into oblivion, rather than join his father. The same character who redeemed his father, even when his mentors told him, it could not be done.

But maybe Luke has figured it all out. Light will always rise to meet Dark and vice versa. The force will always find balance regardless of Luke’s actions, so why not kick back and enjoy an island vacation since nothing he does matters in the big picture.

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joefavs said:

I was just going to say, having special parents isn’t the only way to be special. These movies lost sight of that for a while, but it was always true. Hell, Anakin’s mom was a nobody.

But his father was literally nobody. That makes Anakin special. He was created by Palpatine.


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Personally, while I do like a hero to have to earn and strive towards their powers/goals, the whole idea that The Force has to be diligently studied in order to be effectively used is somewhat blown out of the water when Luke uses it to make a one in a million shot to blow up the Death Star literally a day after finding out it exists.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Personally, while I do like a hero to have to earn and strive towards their powers/goals, the whole idea that The Force has to be diligently studied in order to be effectively used is somewhat blown out of the water when Luke uses it to make a one in a million shot to blow up the Death Star literally a day after finding out it exists.

Do you think could have defeated Vader in lightsaber duel without training?


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He probably could have beat a very injured Kylo. xP

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Gaffer Tape said:

Personally, while I do like a hero to have to earn and strive towards their powers/goals, the whole idea that The Force has to be diligently studied in order to be effectively used is somewhat blown out of the water when Luke uses it to make a one in a million shot to blow up the Death Star literally a day after finding out it exists.

The reality is, that Luke recieved some basic training in using the Force from Obi-Wan before making that one on a million shot. We also saw him struggling to control the Force in subsequent installments, and be easily outclassed by Darth Vader, even after he had been trained by Yoda.

Rey could do everything Luke could without any effort in a matter of days: Jedi mind trick, proficient use of a lightsaber, beat a Jedi master, move a ton of rocks. In all that time she got a single lesson in the use of the Force with Luke, that she didn’t get to complete, because Luke ran off. It’s just wish fulfillment, and completely contradictory to everything established in the Star Wars universe before the ST.

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DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

Because that’s how the Force works.

George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977

I don’t care if it’s not in the film.

and established it in his films.

How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?

You guys are just so inflexible when it comes to the ST.

Episode I: The Ridiculous Menace / Episode II: Attack Of The Ridiculousness / Episode III: Revenge of the Ridiculousness

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TV’s Frink said:

“There has been an awakening.”

Why does it have to come from her parents?

It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.

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Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

“There has been an awakening.”

Why does it have to come from her parents?

It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.

I like the idea of Rey’s lineage (or lack thereof). Referring to her parents as ‘nobodies’ though is not cool. They could have been fine upstanding people. Not everyone has to be talented at one particular thing to be a somebody or a good person.

I don’t like her prowess with no training though. Talent and skill are not the same.

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Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

“There has been an awakening.”

Why does it have to come from her parents?

It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.

Agreed. Setup and payoff. We have the setup, but no payoff.

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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Referring to her parents as ‘nobodies’ though is not cool. They could have been fine upstanding people. Not everyone has to be talented at one particular thing to be a somebody or a good person.

That was Kylo who said that, so I’m not sure why it not being cool is a problem for you. He’s the bad guy, remember?

Episode I: The Ridiculous Menace / Episode II: Attack Of The Ridiculousness / Episode III: Revenge of the Ridiculousness

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Handman said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

“There has been an awakening.”

Why does it have to come from her parents?

It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.

Agreed. Setup and payoff. We have the setup, but no payoff.

Kind of like in ESB where Han is frozen?

There’s still another movie to go.

Episode I: The Ridiculous Menace / Episode II: Attack Of The Ridiculousness / Episode III: Revenge of the Ridiculousness