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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 69

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yotsuya said:

I see Rey’s fast progress as playing catchup to Kylo. Everything she has learned as been from him. He tries to read her mind and then she reads his. He tries to use the force on her and then she uses it on the Stormtrooper. He is skilled with the lightsaber and she uses the same trick. Kylo is her teacher, not Luke. That is why she has what she needs already. Plus the patience. Her conflict is with Kylo, her equal in nearly every area. Yes, she is picking up these incredible powers, but she is facing an adversary even more powerful and practiced. I see that as her character’s main conflict. Luke’s was learning the patience to do things right. Rey has the patience and she just needs the skills and some clue how to deal with Kylo and save the galaxy. I don’t think things are as easy for her as some are making it out. The force powers are not her challenge. Kylo is her challenge. No one else who has faced him has had any impact on him. So I don’t find her fast learning of force powers to make her a Mary Sue because they only put her on equal footing with her adversary. He character journey is defined in other ways, not by the force powers she is learning. When you look at her scenes with Kylo, she has not had it easy at all. Things have not gone her way. She doesn’t have it too easy by any means.

All of this.

a trolling bantha

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TavorX said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

What made you avoid this film? After seeing TFA? After the trailer for TLJ? The reviews?

Reviews and general spoilers. Luke is my favourite SW character, and honestly his characterization in ROTJ – the promise that he would go on to recreate the Jedi – is essentially the only major thing I liked from that film. It’s bad enough that TFA introduced the concept that Luke’s nascent Jedi Order was eradicated by his own nephew, but I could’ve lived with it if Luke kept his head up and kept on truckin’. Instead he runs off to hide and wallow in self pity while the galaxy deteriorates in his absence. To me that is complete and utter character assassination; I refuse to dignify the movie’s existence by watching it.

I can no longer call myself a Star Wars fan. I’m sick of the same played-out aesthetics/tropes being remixed/regurgitated time-&-time again; I’m sick of the deteriorating characterization/worldbuilding which have been in play since 1983; I’m sick of the toxic fanboys from all ideological camps; I’m sick of the capitalist pigs who refuse to allow this IP into the public domain where it rightly belongs. So while I may still admire the first two films for their technical achievements and characters, I’m no longer capable of enjoying Star Wars in any capacity due to the reasons delineated above.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

TavorX said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

What made you avoid this film? After seeing TFA? After the trailer for TLJ? The reviews?

Reviews and general spoilers. Luke is my favourite SW character, and honestly his characterization in ROTJ – the promise that he would go on to recreate the Jedi Order – is essentially the only major thing I liked from that film. It’s bad enough that TFA introduced the concept that Luke’s nascent Jedi Order was eradicated by his own nephew, but I could’ve lived with it if Luke kept his head up and kept on truckin’. Instead he runs off to hide and wallow in self pity while the galaxy deteriorates in his absence. To me that is complete and utter character assassination; I refuse to dignify the movie’s existence by watching it.

Yeah that’s a pretty fair reason. Even though I’ve defended a bit in this thread of Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, I still think there’s a stronger case for criticizing how they did Luke here. A broken Luke totally sounds interesting to me, and it’s something I didn’t even think I wanted until I saw TLJ, but they really didn’t make the story flow right to sell the idea, sadly.

The Hope Awakens

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TavorX said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

TavorX said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

What made you avoid this film? After seeing TFA? After the trailer for TLJ? The reviews?

Reviews and general spoilers. Luke is my favourite SW character, and honestly his characterization in ROTJ – the promise that he would go on to recreate the Jedi Order – is essentially the only major thing I liked from that film. It’s bad enough that TFA introduced the concept that Luke’s nascent Jedi Order was eradicated by his own nephew, but I could’ve lived with it if Luke kept his head up and kept on truckin’. Instead he runs off to hide and wallow in self pity while the galaxy deteriorates in his absence. To me that is complete and utter character assassination; I refuse to dignify the movie’s existence by watching it.

Yeah that’s a pretty fair reason. Even though I’ve defended a bit in this thread of Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, I still think there’s a stronger case for criticizing how they did Luke here. A broken Luke totally sounds interesting to me, and it’s something I didn’t even think I wanted until I saw TLJ, but they really didn’t make the story flow right to sell the idea, sadly.

I don’t think Luke was broken in this movie though. It was more like he just said screw everything, it’s all lies, I hate all of this stuff. Bye.

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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

TavorX said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

TavorX said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

What made you avoid this film? After seeing TFA? After the trailer for TLJ? The reviews?

Reviews and general spoilers. Luke is my favourite SW character, and honestly his characterization in ROTJ – the promise that he would go on to recreate the Jedi Order – is essentially the only major thing I liked from that film. It’s bad enough that TFA introduced the concept that Luke’s nascent Jedi Order was eradicated by his own nephew, but I could’ve lived with it if Luke kept his head up and kept on truckin’. Instead he runs off to hide and wallow in self pity while the galaxy deteriorates in his absence. To me that is complete and utter character assassination; I refuse to dignify the movie’s existence by watching it.

Yeah that’s a pretty fair reason. Even though I’ve defended a bit in this thread of Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, I still think there’s a stronger case for criticizing how they did Luke here. A broken Luke totally sounds interesting to me, and it’s something I didn’t even think I wanted until I saw TLJ, but they really didn’t make the story flow right to sell the idea, sadly.

I don’t think Luke was broken in this movie though. It was more like he just said screw everything, it’s all lies, I hate all of this stuff. Bye.

Uhh
All those things sound like someone that lost it, psychologically, to me.

The Hope Awakens

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I think there is a difference between someone who is defeated and broken, and someone who has just turned into a cynical IDGAF asshole.

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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

I think there is a difference between someone who is defeated and broken, and someone who has just turned into a cynical IDGAF asshole.

Seeing his whole academy up in flames and not being able to save the students that were slaughtered by your own nephew I think would mess with your head for sure. Kylo Ren did basically leave him defeated. I also don’t think there’s a distinct difference where the two traits can’t be mutually exclusive. Luke’s defeat at the academy would lead to that cynicism. “Ha! The great Jedi Master Luke, the legend himself, couldn’t succeed in restoring the Jedi Order!” and “The Jedi teachings have led to the galaxy’s greatest threats, so what’s the point?”

Granted, I’m not saying this was written well in TLJ, in fact, they tried to sell Luke rather poorly, but I think the concept was great.

The Hope Awakens

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I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

Firstly, let me just state that I have no desire to trash your love of ROTJ! My comments are meant in playful fun (just to be clear since internet tone can be misread as easily as Jedi prophecy!).

I’m not so much bothered by genetic Force potential as I am the extent to which the saga eventually leaned on it. The idea of Luke inheriting his Dad’s talents is fine - indeed I think it’s a big part of the SW mythos. He was a ‘great pilot’ like his father, he had much anger in him “like his father” etc. I think the Leia thing just pushed it a little too far, mainly because it was thrown in there purely to tie things up and answer the question of the ‘other hope’. The prequels then kicked the whole thing off the cliff with midichlorians and Chosen Ones and the Force conspiring to balance itself. I just prefer the more Zen version of the Force and the subtler implications of lineage/heritage presented by ANH and TESB.

The point I was making is that Rey’s powers seem to reflect that later SW idea - that she is/was somehow ‘chosen’ or special or loaded with midichlorians via a particular lineage - hence all the speculation prior to TLJ. The revelation that she’s just a regular joe (a revelation I really liked in theory) seems incongruous with her ease in mastering the Force.

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yotsuya said:

I see Rey’s fast progress as playing catchup to Kylo. Everything she has learned as been from him. He tries to read her mind and then she reads his. He tries to use the force on her and then she uses it on the Stormtrooper. He is skilled with the lightsaber and she uses the same trick. Kylo is her teacher, not Luke. That is why she has what she needs already. Plus the patience. Her conflict is with Kylo, her equal in nearly every area. Yes, she is picking up these incredible powers, but she is facing an adversary even more powerful and practiced. I see that as her character’s main conflict. Luke’s was learning the patience to do things right. Rey has the patience and she just needs the skills and some clue how to deal with Kylo and save the galaxy. I don’t think things are as easy for her as some are making it out. The force powers are not her challenge. Kylo is her challenge. No one else who has faced him has had any impact on him. So I don’t find her fast learning of force powers to make her a Mary Sue because they only put her on equal footing with her adversary. He character journey is defined in other ways, not by the force powers she is learning. When you look at her scenes with Kylo, she has not had it easy at all. Things have not gone her way. She doesn’t have it too easy by any means.

I really like this explanation. Thanks - good food for thought.

I also seem to have been botching the quote aspect of replying to folks on this site. Sorry to anyone I’ve responded to - I didn’t mean to cut your name out! Failed I have…into exile I must go…

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Nice to see the fans that disliked or hated this movie represented in main stream media, to provide some balance against all the gushing positive feedback while brushing off the major criticisers as rabid, basement dwelling mommaboys or in many cases - just simply Star Wars fans as if this somehow means their opinion on a Star Wars movie is automatically skewed and worthless…

https://youtu.be/ZQ8ir66M5XU

.Val

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And to represent my anger at what RJ has done to SW in this movie (and his treatment of fans), here is a pretty awesome rant video. He makes a couple of minor mistakes on a couple of matters and missed a few opportunities and issues that I would have made special mention of but he pretty much nails it from start to finish, all while getting to watch a watermelon go mouldy 😛

https://youtu.be/9QJRw56cOVw

A couple of other interesting and IMHO very valid points on the movie that I found from watching a few other vids (that I won’t bother posting here as a lot of it is simply repeating all the issues already covered many times over by other videos and posts in this thread):

  • The entire movie is a never ending series of “gotchya!” scenarios.

  • The entire premise of the movie is to subvert audience expectations, constantly at the cost to characters, story, overall consistency and canonical rules.

.Val

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Another nitpicky thing: why was Luke alive? If he wanted to die, honestly, why didn’t he just kill himself? Like, really, it took him a long while to decide that he should do something worthwhile.
“I came here to die” well just jump from the cliff buddy you’ll be dead in 5 sec!! It would have been the easiest way for the Jedi to end and etc. (and this is actually a very serious matter)

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Collipso said:

Another nitpicky thing: why was Luke alive? If he wanted to die, honestly, why didn’t he just kill himself? Like, really, it took him a long while to decide that he should do something worthwhile.
“I came here to die” well just jump from the cliff buddy you’ll be dead in 5 sec!! It would have been the easiest way for the Jedi to end and etc. (and this is actually a very serious matter)

That question has been on my mind as well, but I was surprised to see no one bring it up until now. He came there to die… and yet he’s busy trying to… survive? Definitely lost on me.

The Hope Awakens

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yotsuya said:

I see Rey’s fast progress as playing catchup to Kylo. Everything she has learned as been from him. He tries to read her mind and then she reads his. He tries to use the force on her and then she uses it on the Stormtrooper. He is skilled with the lightsaber and she uses the same trick. Kylo is her teacher, not Luke. That is why she has what she needs already. Plus the patience. Her conflict is with Kylo, her equal in nearly every area. Yes, she is picking up these incredible powers, but she is facing an adversary even more powerful and practiced. I see that as her character’s main conflict. Luke’s was learning the patience to do things right. Rey has the patience and she just needs the skills and some clue how to deal with Kylo and save the galaxy. I don’t think things are as easy for her as some are making it out. The force powers are not her challenge. Kylo is her challenge. No one else who has faced him has had any impact on him. So I don’t find her fast learning of force powers to make her a Mary Sue because they only put her on equal footing with her adversary. He character journey is defined in other ways, not by the force powers she is learning. When you look at her scenes with Kylo, she has not had it easy at all. Things have not gone her way. She doesn’t have it too easy by any means.

Vader was also better than Luke in every way possible until Return of the Jedi. In the other 2 OT movies Vader beat Luke (including in Luke’s area of expertise: flying). So Luke had to overcome his adversary and become his superior in order to win, like Rey, AND learn to be patient and about the ways of the force, having to face many challenges along the way.
You say Kylo is Rey’s challenge - I respectfully disagree. She’s better than him in every single way possible. She hasn’t been bested by him at all, she in fact kicked his a**, and the second movie in a trilogy should be the character’s low point, where they suffer, where they lose. Yet Rey didn’t suffer in this movie at all. She had to face the reality of who her parents are, yes, but she never cared about that after those 1 or 2 scenes anyway.
I just wanted her to be a more compelling character, a more well developed character, because she’s extremely charismatic, and would be such a likeable protagonist, but unfortunately she’s just a bland and flat character to me.

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TavorX said:

Collipso said:

Another nitpicky thing: why was Luke alive? If he wanted to die, honestly, why didn’t he just kill himself? Like, really, it took him a long while to decide that he should do something worthwhile.
“I came here to die” well just jump from the cliff buddy you’ll be dead in 5 sec!! It would have been the easiest way for the Jedi to end and etc. (and this is actually a very serious matter)

That question has been on my mind as well, but I was surprised to see no one bring it up until now. He came there to die… and yet he’s busy trying to… survive? Definitely lost on me.

Luke, the complete failure, even getting death wrong.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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People complain about Jyn being an underdeveloped character in R1, but where we are now after TFA and TLJ, she’s got a lot more depth than Rey does at this stage and that’s after only one movie.

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Valheru_84 said:

People complain about Jyn being an underdeveloped character in R1, but where we are now after TFA and TLJ, she’s got a lot more depth than Rey does at this stage and that’s after only one movie.

I felt like Cassian had more of a character arc than Rey.

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Collipso said:

Valheru_84 said:

People complain about Jyn being an underdeveloped character in R1, but where we are now after TFA and TLJ, she’s got a lot more depth than Rey does at this stage and that’s after only one movie.

I felt like Cassian had more of a character arc than Rey.

I could agree with that.

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Going to an isolated tranquil place to live out the rest of one’s life/to die is not the same as suicide. If Luke wanted to kill himself there are faster ways to do it in an X-Wing.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Some of the hate being thrown at people who have legitimate questions concerning the film is concerning. Star Wars brought fans together. This film has split us in two and added unsavory elements from outside to stir up more disagreement.

Apology accepted Captain Needa

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There’s plenty of room for civilized debate on a movie, but some people just want to watch the fandom burn it seems.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Captain Needa said:

Some of the hate being thrown at people who have legitimate questions concerning the film is concerning. Star Wars brought fans together. This film has split us in two and added unsavory elements from outside to stir up more disagreement.

Can’t say I’ve seen any hate in here directed at any one, definitely at the movie though.

Also I wouldn’t say this movie has split us in two. I would say the PT split the SW fan base in two. TFA started to show some hope of bringing it back together but TLJ has since torn it completely apart while also creating fresh divisions amongst both the OT and PT parties. Essentially TLJ has fractured the SW fan base and proclaims to “kill the past”, to wipe the slate clean and start again with a fully disney-fied and commercialised SW franchise for the next generation of suckers (not trying to white wash everyone that continues to watch SW post TLJ here but simply point out that some people are blind to such things and will buy into anything SW no matter what. These type of people are already a large part of SW fandom and if that’s what floats their boat, so be it. I for one will not be bought so easily simply because “Star Wars”).

Between EA’s treatment of the latest Battlefront 2 game and the direction TLJ is taking SW, I really have no desire to continue buying into this marketing machine. I’m resigned to the fact that as all good things must come to an end, SW has run it’s course for me and I’ll just have to be content with enjoying the OT in its fan restored goodness, since I can’t even get legit copies anymore of the movies I care about most.

.Val

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Well don’t look at me. The only thing I’ve bought in the past few years was a Moroff action figure. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Going to an isolated tranquil place to live out the rest of one’s life/to die is not the same as suicide. If Luke wanted to kill himself there are faster ways to do it in an X-Wing.

Hadn’t thought of it that way. Good enough reason for me.

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SilverWook said:

There’s plenty of room for civilized debate on a movie, but some people just want to watch the fandom burn it seems.

I don’t want to see the fandom burn. I want to see this terrible movie burn.