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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 57

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chyron8472 said:

I didn’t like Hux (in The Force Awakens). Maybe it’s his appearance, or age, or voice, or something but I have a really hard time taking him seriously as a successor to Tarkin. He just lacks a certain amount of menace that I think someone in that position needs.

It’s even harder in the german version since he’s dubbed by the same voice actor that dubs “Howard Wolowitz”.

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Ryan said:

MalàStrana said:

Ryan said:
I would not be surprised if you see fan edits of TFA where they edit out a lot of Rey’s parent stuff. I think the Rey’s parent stuff in TFA will feel like a drag on repeated viewings. That’s assuming nothing changes on that in 9.

But knowing she really is “no one” and not a Skywalker/whatever blood relative is one of the strongest ideas of the movie (and RJ takes his time to make that reveal, so in a way it’s quite respectful of the material). By making Rey not-Skywalker, he gives the Saga new horizons (I don’t like the Rey character but this idea is great me-think).

If they wanted Rey to be a “no one”, then they could have done that in TFA. There was no need to do a big setup, then in TLJ to throw that away of her being a “no one”.

I would have much rather we know in TFA that Rey is no one. They could have easily and quickly done that in TFA of her NOT being a Skywalker sibling, but a daughter of regular “no one” parents.

What was the point of her being “classified” in TFA?

Who knows, maybe JJ will retcon the whole thing and it will matter in Episode 9?

You do recall that Rey literally tells us she’s no-one in TFA - it was even a key line in the teaser trailers.

For the record I loved TLJ. I took my 9 year old daughter and we both came out of the screening utterly thrilled. I was actually struggling to speak as I had a lump in my throat as I tried to talk about the twin suns scene at the end. Big sap that I am I was even reduced to tears at the Luke and Leia scene when he told her “no one’s ever really gone” and handed over Han’s dice. Maybe it was because the line was loaded with so much extra meaning in light of Carrie Fisher’s passing last Christmas but it really got to me.

Anyway, back to the movie…

The problem is that Star Wars fans appear to all want the movie they made in their heads and not the one Rian Johnson made. I’ve read through every page of this thread so far and the amount of comments about “I wanted to see badass Luke, wah wah lightsaber duels” along with “but TFA set up (insert the payoff you thought was coming) and now I’m unhappy that the filmmakers didn’t do it.” Sorry folks, maybe it’s becsuse I’m old (43) but I don’t think Luke doing the kind of whirling dervish sabre duelling seen in the PT would be right for this movie. Luke is essentially the same age as Obi Wan in SW by this point - do we remember the elegant Kendo style duel on the Death Star between Obi Wan and Vader? Luke is old, Jedi or not, he’s past his prime and knows he’ll never get the measure of Kylo in a straight up duel. What he does have is age and experience on his side and he uses it masterfully to show Kylo that, while he may be the more powerful, his old master has a few tricks up his sleeve. Let’s be honest, if RJ had gone the other way and given you what you want there would be plenty people on here comply about “fan service” and lazy writing.

Point 2 - there also appear to be a few commentators who have missed important details and nuances in the film cf Yoda burning the Jedi Library - cue howls of outrage from people who missed the scene later where the books are seen on the Falcon. Rey might have understood Luke’s first lesson but lots the audience didn’t - the force isn’t about being special or something that you inherit from your parents,.Luke’s speech is a direct nod to Obi Wan’s first lesson to him - remember it’s: “an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together”. One of the numerous crimes of the PT was to try to explain the force more and impose more rules on it here RJ has basically said “yeah, forget all that horseshit” let’s get back to the thing you fell in love with in the first place. TFA started this process by recapturing the spirit of the OT from under all the portentous weight the PT and the EU had heaped upon the galaxy far far away but the Starkiller Base was really just a little too derivative. It set up plenty - just not the stuff you thought it was setting up. TLJ takes a lot more chances with the source material and it mostly pays off - count me among the number who felt the Canto Bight sequence was probably over long and a little out of place even if the eventual pay off af the end sort of redeemed it a little.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Feel free to disagree.

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SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I could almost guarantee that if TLJ’s story beats exactly matched expectations of what people were speculating, many people would have accused the film of being predictable and boring.

I would have settled for a competently told story, and one that spent less time on pointless sub-plots, useless characters, & cartoony gags, and more focus on the critical themes surrounding our hero’s struggles and growth as she takes the next step of her journey.

Because there never were any cartoony gags in the OOT.

Nope, not even close to the extent of the gags that were placed throughout TLJ. The only thing in the OOT that feels like a “gag” is the Tarzan yell in ROTJ, which fortunately is brief and not in-your-face, like the TLJ stuff.

Anyway, the gags are just one aspect of what’s wrong with the movie.

Forgetting Wicket hitting himself in the head with his own sling?

Cartoon physics when Paploo steals the speeder bike?

The slapstick only got worse in the SE’s. The droid in Mos Eisely hitting the other droid for example. Or the Jawas falling off the Ronto.

I dont remember saying that the ROTJ gags (and they were much less prominent than TLJ) were a good idea in the first place. In fact, I don’t think i’ve ever heard anyone say that, so it’s irrelevant to the current discussion.

Not only did RJ insert stupid gags into the movie, but he actually spent time on each one, and made them stand out apart from whatever was going on in the scene. For example, the Chewie roasting the porg scene and the BB-8 slot-machine joke.

And again, this is not the worst thing about the movie. They just add insult to injury after the pointless subplots / characters and lack of any real growth within the main character, just to name a couple…

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I simply don’t understand how that NEED to make a strong OT-worthy Star Wars film has been lost, in the second freaking movie of the Trilogy.

When TFA came out, it was the first live-action Star Wars film since the Prequels. And the Prequels were thoroughly derided. What TFA needed to do, as a modern Star Wars film, was to reinvigorate the franchise and show that Star Wars could still be done well, with a respectful homage to the films that started it all and captured the hearts of so many fans. It needed new life.

After TFA proved that Star Wars was being treated well, and that George was no longer directly ruining it for everyone, the franchise could then continue in new and fresh ways. Granted, they could have created TLJ to be another typical adventure-fantasy-in-space, but that’s not what they did. They chose, now that they’ve got everyone’s attention, to turn expectations of the story on its head.

I could almost guarantee that if TLJ’s story beats exactly matched expectations of what people were speculating, many people would have accused the film of being predictable and boring.

This exactly. Damned if they did , damned if they didn’t.

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I’d pay money to see just one detractor of this film demand a refund from the theater they saw it in and post proof of it.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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KILLOFFPOE said:

chyron8472 said:

I think that, plain and simple, what many people wanted TLJ to have been was unattainable. I think no matter what LFL/Disney/RJ/JJ did people would complain. That doesn’t mean complaints aren’t valid. It means they’re damned if they do and they’re damned if they don’t.

Couldn’t disagree more strongly. The overall tone, pacing, characters, and setup from TFA were great. Keep doing that for 3 Star Wars movies and everyone loves them.

Yes. Tone and pacing are two of the biggest problems with The Last Jedi. Small details are irrelevant. The movie fails from the perspective of basic story structure.

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chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

We don’t need to love every tittle of the OT to point out substantial flaws in the new films or explain differences.

That assumes such flaws are substantial or indeed flaws at all.

I still say, no matter what they did some people just have expectations that would have extremely difficult to reach, and if done so could have then appealed to only that niche and annoyed another group of people instead.

Sure, and no matter what some group of people would love it. I don’t think these observations help to further discussions about what the people in this forum liked/didn’t like.

The blue elephant in the room.

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incredibledisc said:

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I simply don’t understand how that NEED to make a strong OT-worthy Star Wars film has been lost, in the second freaking movie of the Trilogy.

This exactly. Damned if they did , damned if they didn’t.

Not damned at all if they make a competent, normal, non-prequel-y, Star Wars film in the style of The Force Awakens but without wholesale remaking of A New Hope.

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chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I could almost guarantee that if TLJ’s story beats exactly matched expectations of what people were speculating, many people would have accused the film of being predictable and boring.

I would have settled for a competently told story, and one that spent less time on pointless sub-plots, useless characters, & cartoony gags, and more focus on the critical themes surrounding our hero’s struggles and growth as she takes the next step of her journey.

Because there never were any cartoony gags in the OOT.

Nope, not even close to the extent of the gags that were placed throughout TLJ. The only thing in the OOT that feels like a “gag” is the Tarzan yell in ROTJ, which fortunately is brief and not in-your-face, like the TLJ stuff.

Anyway, the gags are just one aspect of what’s wrong with the movie.

Forgetting Wicket hitting himself in the head with his own sling?

Cartoon physics when Paploo steals the speeder bike?

The slapstick only got worse in the SE’s. The droid in Mos Eisely hitting the other droid for example. Or the Jawas falling off the Ronto.

I thought it fashionable to hate on ROTJ, particularly because Ewoks. Has that changed?

ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars film. It might be “fashionable”, but in that haters-gonna-hate sort of way that gets tiring.

ROTJ is my favorite too. I recognize some flaws that were routinely identified on this forum when I was last here a couple years ago. On some points I disagreed with the naysayers.

The blue elephant in the room.

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I also recall most here, including me, hating on the prequels for innumerable reasons. A brave minority sought to convince that the perceived differences between the PT and OT were mostly contrived.

The blue elephant in the room.

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 (Edited)

Mark Hamill:

“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars. I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A

Well it’s not my Luke Skywalker either, but I guess I’m one of the older generation too.

Doesn’t sound like Mark is at all happy with how RJ portrayed his character. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I don’t think this has ever happened before. A Star Wars actor blasting the way his character was handled at the time of the movie’s release.

Anyway, I think it’s official. That was Luke’s grumpy twin brother in TLJ: Jake Skywalker. Obi-Wan and Yoda never liked that guy, and so they forgot to mention him to Luke, hoping he would take a hint and go away.

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One of the issues I have with the new movies is the constant over-explanation of everything. Star Wars has never been subtle, but did we really need to see people with monocles and tuxedos on understand that these were rich people?

TLJ was a movie-equivalent of a Thomas Kinkade painting.

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DrDre said:

Mark Hamill:

“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars…”

Screw George. George is the reason we still don’t have an official OUT in HD. The reason why the original OT was even as good as it was was because George had a team of people around him that kept his ideas in check. George was responsible for making Episode I completely irrelevant to the Ep.2-6 story arc. And it it was out of sheer spite toward the fans who hated the Prequels that he refused to make the Sequel Trilogy before now.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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If he was that unhappy he could have threatened to walk if changes weren’t made. It’s not like they could replace him.

And that’s hardly blasting the director.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

If he was that unhappy he could have threatened to walk if changes weren’t made. It’s not like they could replace him.

And that’s hardly blasting the director.

He was hired to do a job, and so he did that job to the best of his abilities, and to his credit it’s an amazing performance. He doesn’t have to like it though, as he clearly doesn’t. It’s RJ’s vision for the character and he respects that, but he doesn’t feel that character is Luke Skywalker.

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ravenna said:

One of the issues I have with the new movies is the constant over-explanation of everything. Star Wars has never been subtle, but did we really need to see people with monocles and tuxedos on understand that these were rich people?

TLJ was a movie-equivalent of a Thomas Kinkade painting.

It’s an exclusive casino. What are they supposed to wear? Even Vegas has places they won’t let you in without a suit.

You never see anybody in street clothes in a casino in a 007 movie. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DrDre said:

Mark Hamill:

“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars. I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A

Well it’s not my Luke Skywalker either.

Doesn’t sound like Mark is at all happy with how RJ portrayed his character. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I don’t think this has ever happened before. A Star Wars actor blasting the way his character was handled at the time of the movie’s release.

I agree, but I can’t really blame that all on Rian Johnson. He inherited the problem of how to portray Luke from TFA. Han Solo says it all - That Luke “walked away”. So, I don’t know what they could’ve done different with Luke and still have it match with TFA?
I mean if Luke Skywalker “walks away,” never to return, then he has to be in a pretty dark place in the Last Jedi, right?

I think it would’ve been better to just go ahead and make him the mentor in TFA.

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

If he was that unhappy he could have threatened to walk if changes weren’t made. It’s not like they could replace him.

And that’s hardly blasting the director.

He was hired to do a job, and so he did that job to the best of his abilities, and to his credit it’s an amazing performance. He doesn’t have to like it though, as he clearly doesn’t. It’s RJ’s vision for the character and he respects that, but he doesn’t feel that character is Luke Skywalker.

And lest we forget, Harrison Ford had issues with George over not killing Han off in ROTJ.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Cobra Kai said:

DrDre said:

Mark Hamill:

“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars. I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A

Well it’s not my Luke Skywalker either.

Doesn’t sound like Mark is at all happy with how RJ portrayed his character. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I don’t think this has ever happened before. A Star Wars actor blasting the way his character was handled at the time of the movie’s release.

I agree, but I can’t really blame that all on Rian Johnson. He inherited the problem of how to portray Luke from TFA. Han Solo says it all - That Luke “walked away”. So, I don’t know what they could’ve done different with Luke and still have it match with TFA?
I mean if Luke Skywalker “walks away,” never to return, then he has to be in a pretty dark place in the Last Jedi, right?

I think it would’ve been better to just go ahead and make him the mentor in TFA.

TFA also said Luke went to look for the first Jedi Temple. Many speculated he went there to look for some answers, some sort of solution. So, this was not his only option. It would seem Luke was pretty desperate, but I think few envisioned Luke just sitting on a rock, waiting to die.

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SilverWook said:

ravenna said:

One of the issues I have with the new movies is the constant over-explanation of everything. Star Wars has never been subtle, but did we really need to see people with monocles and tuxedos on understand that these were rich people?

TLJ was a movie-equivalent of a Thomas Kinkade painting.

It’s an exclusive casino. What are they supposed to wear? Even Vegas has places they won’t let you in without a suit.

You never see anybody in street clothes in a casino in a 007 movie. 😉

Space Nazis wear overtly fascistic garb but space oil tycoons have to be subtle? Hm.

As for the gags sure it felt more TFA than 1977… but I always found the original to be the funniest one.

Yub Nub for life

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 (Edited)

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

If he was that unhappy he could have threatened to walk if changes weren’t made. It’s not like they could replace him.

And that’s hardly blasting the director.

He was hired to do a job, and so he did that job to the best of his abilities, and to his credit it’s an amazing performance. He doesn’t have to like it though, as he clearly doesn’t. It’s RJ’s vision for the character and he respects that, but he doesn’t feel that character is Luke Skywalker.

And lest we forget, Harrison Ford had issues with George over not killing Han off in ROTJ.

Sure, he felt his character had past his sell by date, and it would be better for the story if he died, but he never said that the character in ROTJ is not Han Solo. That it is all wrong. Harrison Ford didn’t care much about the Han Solo character anyway.

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DrDre said:

Cobra Kai said:

DrDre said:

Mark Hamill:

“Luke would never say that, I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars. I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A

Well it’s not my Luke Skywalker either.

Doesn’t sound like Mark is at all happy with how RJ portrayed his character. I agree with him wholeheartedly. I don’t think this has ever happened before. A Star Wars actor blasting the way his character was handled at the time of the movie’s release.

I agree, but I can’t really blame that all on Rian Johnson. He inherited the problem of how to portray Luke from TFA. Han Solo says it all - That Luke “walked away”. So, I don’t know what they could’ve done different with Luke and still have it match with TFA?
I mean if Luke Skywalker “walks away,” never to return, then he has to be in a pretty dark place in the Last Jedi, right?

I think it would’ve been better to just go ahead and make him the mentor in TFA.

TFA also said Luke went to look for the first Jedi Temple. Many speculated he went there to look for some answers, some sort of solution. So, this was not his only option.

Yes, I guess that’s possible. But still it’s hard to reconcile the fact that Luke leaves and does not deal with the Kylo situation, unless he’s just looking for answers and accidentally gets stranded or something like that.

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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DrDre said:

Good article from a self-proclaimed fan, that I agree with:

Title: The Last Jedi was more a finale than a middle act. That’s not good for Episode 9.

https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/17/16787500/star-wars-the-last-jedi-story-rian-johnson-episode-9-jj-abrams

I really get the sense from TLJ, that RJ made the film he wanted to make, and didn’t really care that it was supposed to be part of a greater narrative both in terms of the saga, and in terms of the third trilogy. He’s resolved pretty much every story thread that was set up by TFA, and has provided very little connective tissue to the rest of the saga, or setups for future installments. Much of the hype for TLJ was based on fans speculating about the outcome for setups of TFA, and how it will connect to the characters and the rest of the saga. RJ has effectively killed that in my view, which I think is a shame.

I disagree, I think its a great setup for IX which could be set a couple of years after TLJ. Maybe the kid with the broom was not an isolated incident, the force may have awakened in lots of young people. Rey has the jedi texts and could have been training them to fight the FO and the knights of ren (we don’t know they are dead after all). IX could be mass battles between jedi and sith armies.

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 (Edited)

From the interviews he gave in the original making of ESB paperback, Ford seemed protective of the character in 1979 at least.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?