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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 50

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I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Mrebo said:

I have followed this thread with great interest.

I’ve especially appreciated the posts by Wexter and Yoda is [My] Father. There’s a lot more being said than the movie is bad because things are the same and/or different.

Thanks! Happy to contribute 😃

War does not make one great.

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For some reason I feel like reiterating that my problems with the film was more editing/lack of pay-off for some set ups than story (though story wise I think reducing the resistance to whatever could fit on the Falcon was a tad overkill, and you could have the same story without it.)

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Wait. They kill Luke? But isn’t this Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker? Umm…

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adywan said:

theprequelsrule said:

Wait. They kill Luke? But isn’t this Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker? Umm…

It hasn’t been since Lucas changed it to the story of Anakin Skywalker when the PT started. Now its the saga of the Skywalkers

I know. It’s why Star Wars kind of sucks now. IMHO of course

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For those who are conflicted over TLJ, I recommend playing the game Kotor2 (with the restoration mods of course). The latter shows you how to challenge and subvert Star Wars while still being respectful of the source material. Just an awesome game/experience.

I hope the moderators are okay with me posting this here.

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theprequelsrule said:

For those who are conflicted over TLJ, I recommend playing the game Kotor2 (with the restoration mods of course). The latter shows you how to challenge and subvert Star Wars while still being respectful of the source material. Just an awesome game/experience.

I hope the moderators are okay with me posting this here.

But isn’t that game set a long time before the prequels? so it doesn’t have anything it needs to follow and nobody we know from the films even in it. So no built up expectation in out minds or in the books people have read as to what a certain character should be.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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adywan said:

theprequelsrule said:

For those who are conflicted over TLJ, I recommend playing the game Kotor2 (with the restoration mods of course). The latter shows you how to challenge and subvert Star Wars while still being respectful of the source material. Just an awesome game/experience.

I hope the moderators are okay with me posting this here.

But isn’t that game set a long time before the prequels? so it doesn’t have anything it needs to follow and nobody we know from the films even in it. So no built up expectation in out minds or in the books people have read as to what a certain character should be.

Exactly so. Which is why it works.

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theprequelsrule said:

adywan said:

theprequelsrule said:

For those who are conflicted over TLJ, I recommend playing the game Kotor2 (with the restoration mods of course). The latter shows you how to challenge and subvert Star Wars while still being respectful of the source material. Just an awesome game/experience.

I hope the moderators are okay with me posting this here.

But isn’t that game set a long time before the prequels? so it doesn’t have anything it needs to follow and nobody we know from the films even in it. So no built up expectation in out minds or in the books people have read as to what a certain character should be.

Exactly so. Which is why it works.

But how can that even be a way to show how you should do a so called respectful version of the ST when it doesn’t even have to follow anything that came before it? It can’t.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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theprequelsrule said:

For those who are conflicted over TLJ, I recommend playing the game Kotor2 (with the restoration mods of course). The latter shows you how to challenge and subvert Star Wars while still being respectful of the source material. Just an awesome game/experience.

I hope the moderators are okay with me posting this here.

Sure thing mate.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Separate to my first post a couple of pages back, I have to say I’m really not impressed with what Rian Jonhson has done in this movie. It feels like he set out to specifically do the opposite of everything expected from audiences and from what JJ setup with TFA regardless of whether it fit or was good for the story.

I mean, everyone knows Carrie Fisher has passed away and if ever there was a moment to work this into the story in regards to Leia, it was to either have her die in the bridge blowout or through self sacrifice by going down with the ship, making the ultimate sacrifice with the ultimate display of neverending defiance against the Empire, FO and all who would oppose freedom in the galaxy by taking out Snoke’s ship with her last act of free will while she lived. I mean the later option would have been the perfect way to send her off and be remembered, it would have represented everything Leia has fought for up till this point and fed straight into sowing the seeds of renewed hope in the galaxy, in joining the fight against these oppresive forces.

But because RJ wants go against everything even reasonably expected, he will lead you up that expected path and then at the last moment turn it on it’s head as a cheap trick just to get a shock out of the audience and prove some personal point about his ability to do what he wants with HIS Star Wars movie, rules / canon, consistency and established story plot and arcs be damned.

There are only a few things that I actually hate when it comes to SW:

  • What GL did to the OT with each subsequent SE release and therefore GL himself to an extent.

  • GL furthermore because of his crusade to wipe the OUT from existence while being a massive hypocrite due to what he said initially on the matter of film preservation.

  • What RJ has done with TLJ. Disney can be included in that to an extent as well as many of the changes in TLJ feel like they are the result of corporate agendas.

I don’t include the PTs in that list because while they are bad movies, there’s nothing about them so bad that I actually feel hate for nor do they feel like they go out of their way to spit in the face of everything that has come before them. RJ on the other hand feels like he purposefully turned his back on the established saga and fan base just to help Disney spawn a new and never ending age of Star Wars movies, video games and toys for the masses.

Going from TFA to TLJ feels like a big “f##k you” from RJ and in turn I say to him and Disney “No, f##k YOU! No more! I am finished with SW if that is it’s future…”. I have been considering a second viewing of the movie simply to try and resolve my own conflicts one way or another sooner rather than later (ie. waiting for home release) but I will not be watching any more SW movies in the cinemas and any home releases will be purchased at basement bin prices out of curiosity.

.Val

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adywan said:

theprequelsrule said:

adywan said:

theprequelsrule said:

For those who are conflicted over TLJ, I recommend playing the game Kotor2 (with the restoration mods of course). The latter shows you how to challenge and subvert Star Wars while still being respectful of the source material. Just an awesome game/experience.

I hope the moderators are okay with me posting this here.

But isn’t that game set a long time before the prequels? so it doesn’t have anything it needs to follow and nobody we know from the films even in it. So no built up expectation in out minds or in the books people have read as to what a certain character should be.

Exactly so. Which is why it works.

But how can that even be a way to show how you should do a so called respectful version of the ST when it doesn’t even have to follow anything that came before it? It can’t.

A respectful way of subverting Star Wars…not a respectful version of the ST. To subvert Star Wars using the OT characters is disrespectful. Han Solo had completed his arc in the OT…but he reverts in TFA to being “solo” again.

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While I do wish that Leia was the one to do the hyperspace trick, I also think it was important that her and Luke were on screen together one last time. I believe that Rian felt the same way, but kinda wrote himself into a corner; the way he set up the rest of the plot, the only way for Luke and Leia to meet again would require that Leia makes it to Crait.

EDIT: And I don’t doubt for a second that there would be bitching if they didn’t appear on screen together.

i’m a girl

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The movie was alright, better than Rogue One but not as enjoyable as TFA. Rian Johnson made some clever choices when disregarding all of the stupid fan-theories and mysteries that TFA had set up but sometimes it seemed too deliberate or ham-fisted rather than being used to improve upon the overarching story. The movie started off terrible, the entire first sequence was annoying, unfunny, and way too cheesy for my taste (save for the last part where the girl blows up the ship, that was cool). I found the part where Leia gets sucked out into space really odd and I felt like it doesn’t really fit her character to have force powers like that, although it did put her in a coma, but I dunno. Luke and Rey’s first scene was okay, the way he threw the lightsaber so nonchalantly was kinda jarring, I would’ve preferred to see him throwing it in anger or something but whatever. I had no issue with the characterization of Luke, he did the exact same thing that Obi-Wan and Yoda did when things went wrong but he was much more self-aware and cynical which I liked, his arc was pretty much non-existent but it rather felt like he just randomly decided to help them out. Kylo Ren was really great, Hux was the same as last time, Snoke was the same as last time and I loved his death scene!! Other than that, EVERY character was underwritten and forgettable.

The #1 thing that bugs me in movies is when pointless scenes and subplots show up and don’t service the story at all, so naturally, I had a huge problem with the fact that 2 characters had an arc and the rest of them could’ve been cut out! Finn did nothing at all, if you cut him out of the movie entirely, there would be no difference to the story. Same goes for Rose, Leia, Chewbacca, Captain Phasma (why bother even bringing her back just to kill her again!?), DJ, Maz Kanata, Hux, C3P0, R2D2, BB-8, and that cartoon First Order General at the beginning. NONE of the characters I just mentioned had any effect on the story, I’m not saying that every character has to have a direct or major impact on the story, but it’s annoying to see characters that have been established as important in this trilogy become less important than a five minute Yoda cameo (which was pretty sweet btw) or the annoying purple haired lady sacrificing herself. Speaking of sacrificing characters, I’m glad Finn didn’t die because he should die in a movie where he’s actually written properly. Rian Johnson needs to learn how to write characters and then he needs to learn to kill characters with some actual meaning rather than for some shock value.

The pacing was pretty insane as well, felt like a 2-act film with really stretched out second and third acts rather than a proper 3-act film. The editing was super off, jumping between scenes at inappropriate times and way too frequently, it came off as deliberate and annoying rather than for suspense purposes. Also, the casino planet didn’t bother me too much, I just hated the super preachy horse race subplot and the whole weapons dealers lesson, get that political agenda out of my god damn star wars movie!

Overall it was decent though, I enjoyed quite a bit of it. 6.5/10

Prequel Fan-Edit thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Yet-another-series-of-prequel-edits/id/17329

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I’ve signed the petition.

Not because I believe for a second that Disney will “strike Ep VIII from the official canon” nor do I think this is the right course of action (I mean, done is done. The movie is out there and is now part of the saga however unfortunately) but hopefully it might get their attention somewhat that they can’t just do whatever the f##k they want with SW and expect fans to just accept it and keep paying for it. Below is one of the comments from the petition that I can definitely sympathise with:

"I stand with my fellow “Star Wars” fans in expressing a deep disappoint and revulsion of how Rian Johnson and Disney have defiled many of the beloved characters in “Episode VIII.” All other criticisms of the film aside, this is a film that ignores decades of character development, world building and mythology in favor of cheap moments of sensationalism and shock value.

This film feels less like a “Star Wars” movie and more in line with “Guardians of the Galaxy” with its poorly-timed humor and shallow character development. But the greatest sin of all is putting words in Luke’s mouth that feel completely out of character. I did not mind Luke’s actions in the film. In fact, I really liked the idea behind what Johnson was trying to do. However, a complete lack of believable motivation and horrendous dialogue made Luke feel like a cardboard cut out, instead of the wise and hardened warrior we left in “Return of the Jedi.”

I do not seriously expect Disney to strike “Episode VIII” from canon, but as a life long fan, this has made me question whether I will go and see any of Disney’s “Star Wars” movies in the future. Poor decision making, horrible direction and writing. Johnson has killed Luke twice with this film. A grave disappoint for many fans."

It was around 23,000 signatures when I first opened it a couple of hours ago and is now rapidly closing in on 26,000. The numbers pale beside how many people would have gone to see the movie but it’s still a sizeable subset of the fan base all gathering under the same criticism and shoutout to Disney: https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon

This movie has majorly pissed me off if anyone can’t tell…

.Val

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First world problems I guess.

If the powers that be paid any attention to petitions we would have had the OOT ten years ago.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ah, one of the “TFA was unoriginal and TLJ was too original” reviews. Lol.

Don’t know if this was directed at a specific review, or the more critical reviews in general? In the latter case I think it misrepresents many of the criticism against TLJ:

  • Rey’s fast progression from junk dealer to Jedi is not a matter of originality, but consistency. There can’t be more than a few days to a few weeks between the start of TFA and the ending of TLJ. As a matter of fact TLJ takes place over a matter of hours, considering the whole out of fuel plot. In that time Rey is given a highly condensed version of Luke’s arc over two films, starting on a backwater planet to learn the ways of the Force, and ending up in the big bad’s throne room, and finally as the last Jedi. The problem here of course is, that she hardly recieves any training, and ultimately isn’t really tested or suffers any serious setbacks. She crawls through a river of **** and comes out clean at the end, apparently greater and wiser than Luke Skywalker himself, making the old Jedi Master redundant to the point, that he can die at peace mirroring Yoda’s death in ROTJ.

  • While Snoke’s death was shocking, and overall reasonably well executed, he’s reduced to a plot device, because his character hasn’t been properly set up, or his history and motivations explained. His function seems merely to prop up Kylo Ren, who after being deflated at the end of TFA, now is reinvented as the big bad of the ST, but without the necessary development and character growth. This criticism again is not a matter of originality, but story and character development.

  • The criticism against the representation of Luke Skywalker is also one of consistency, particulary the idea that Luke would contemplate the murder of his nephew. This 180 degree turn in his character is severely underdeveloped, and only explained in a single scene in which he reads his nephew’s mind realizing Snoke had already won Ben’s heart. This also comes back to the complete lack of developement of Snoke, and the history between Snoke and Kylo. We’re now supposed to believe, that Luke who refused to kill his father and accept he was lost to the dark side, knowing all the terrible things his father had done under the guise of Darth Vader, now gives up on his young nephew based on a vision of the future, a future he knows to allways be in motion. This scene might have worked, if we had learned a bit more about Luke’s psychological state post-ROTJ. He could have told Rey, that his father’s death, and learning about the true magnitude of Vader’s crimes had left him emotionally scarred, and he grew obsessed with preventing the birth of another Darth Vader. He’d found the strength to forgive his father, but the price of his father’s redemption had been too great for the galaxy. If the whole Jedi order couldn’t prevent his father’s turn, how could he by himself create a new and stable Jedi order? So, against Yoda’s council, for years he had refused to train a new generation of Jedi, to pass on what he had learned, until young Ben was born, and against his better judgement decided to mentor Ben and a few other students. He wasn’t ready to be a teacher, and young Ben sensed Luke’s trepidation, blaming himself. Snoke ceased the opportunity to corrupt the insecure and impressionable Ben, leading to the scene in the film.

These are just three of many criticisms against the film, that mostly relate to lack of story and character development, and/or consistency. The shocks and twists are fine, but without the necessary backbone of story and character end up being hollow and superficial. This is all just my opinion of course, but as I stated before it’s not the originality of RJ’s approach that I dislike, but the condensation of plot and character, that makes the story feel rushed and shallow.

Bullseye. Great post.

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The Last Jedi is excellent. Such a great character building chapter in the saga. Leia using the Force was amazing and it blew me away. What Luke did in the end was the most impressive display of Force mastery we have seen on screen. Poe learning to be the leader Leia needs him to be was inspiring.

This movie is about failure, and weather or not we can forgive ourselves, learn from our mistakes and move on.

I wish Yoda looked a little better, but other than that the movie is awesome.

I had issues on my first viewing. It’s a lot to take in. After watching it again I enjoyed it much more. I’ve seen it 4 times now and I love it. I’ve heard many have enjoyed it after seeing it again. It takes some adjustment no doubt but if you put aside your own ideas and appreciate what’s there, you’ll find a whole lot of interesting character development and so much for Star Wars fans to be happy about.

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  • Luke senses dark side in Kylo. Rashômon Saber scene from TLJ.
  • Kylo blows up the temple.
  • Kylo already pretty strong in the force. Thinks he can be his own teacher. Anakin vibes, wanting to be a Master.
  • Starts teaching his own disciples, the Knights of Ren
  • Can’t learn from Luke, so goes towards Vader instead.
  • Joins up with small band of imperial remnant called the First Order, lead by Hux.
  • Hux distrusting of Kylo for his “ancient religion” + family.
  • Kylo more interested in Force related power/research than Empire building.
  • Kylo kills Hux in the Throne room to seize command of the First Order. Unclear what he’ll do with it.
  • Invites Rey to join him in researching the Force from a lightside/darkside perspective, not just being evil. Links up with what Luke has been telling Rey about ending the Jedi.

There. We’re back to beginning of TFA/TLJ with no Snoke at all.

Watching TFA again, some lines about Snoke sound ridiculous. Especially Leia talking about Snoke turning Ben.

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KILLOFFPOE said:

  • Luke senses dark side in Kylo. Rashômon Saber scene from TLJ.
  • Kylo blows up the temple.
  • Kylo already pretty strong in the force. Thinks he can be his own teacher. Anakin vibes, wanting to be a Master.
  • Starts teaching his own disciples, the Knights of Ren
  • Can’t learn from Luke, so goes towards Vader instead.
  • Joins up with small band of imperial remnant called the First Order, lead by Hux.
  • Hux distrusting of Kylo for his “ancient religion” + family.
  • Kylo more interested in Force related power/research than Empire building.
  • Kylo kills Hux in the Throne room to seize command of the First Order. Unclear what he’ll do with it.
  • Invites Rey to join him in researching the Force from a lightside/darkside perspective, not just being evil. Links up with what Luke has been telling Rey about ending the Jedi.

There. We’re back to beginning of TFA/TLJ with no Snoke at all.

Watching TFA again, some lines about Snoke sound ridiculous. Especially Leia talking about Snoke turning Ben.

You might’ve written Hux instead of Snoke in a few places mate.

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Saw it for a third time tonight. First viewing, I was overwhelmed. Second, I was enraptured. This time, I’ve found some nits to pick. None of the big character or story stuff that everyone’s losing their minds about, I’m on board with pretty much all of that. Some secondary stuff bothered me tonight, though:

-They’re edging uncomfortably close to prequel R2-D2 territory with BB-8. I could accept any one of the four or five over-the-top moments he has in isolation (after all, this kind of stuff happens in the comics all the time), but taken together it’s more than I want to have to reconcile. I’m hoping J.J. will rein it in a bit when he comes back.

-Snoke’s early death seems to have been used as license to not bother fleshing him out beyond being a Palpatine copy. The characterization is disappointingly close. I’m hoping this feels like less of an issue if and when the EU adds some more context for the character.

-I like everything that happens on Canto Bight apart from the aforementioned BB-8 moments, but it really does a number on the pacing of the film. I know a lot of folks are saying it’s unnecessary, but I think that Poe, Finn and Rose taking matters into their own hands and having it absolutely backfire is a key thematic element in the story. I have no idea how I’d fix it and it ultimately isn’t a deal breaker, but my biggest beef with this movie is the bloat, and Canto Bight is a major part of that problem.

-The time frame. I don’t mean “Rey doesn’t have enough time to train”, I think it’s pretty clear that Ahch-To has a similar kind of weird Force time dilation thing going on to whatever allowed Luke to get through so much Jedi shit on Dagobah. I just have concerns about the “shape” of the ST, so to speak, when two of the three installments take place over such a short amount of time. I expect this to stop feeling so strange over time, but at the moment it’s really bizarre.

In the end, though, the good far outweighs the bad for me, and I respect the fact that Johnson’s swinging for the fences enough to give him the benefit of the doubt on this stuff. I think I’m going to wait a week or two before going again and allow my eyes to become fresh again.

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Things I liked that many people seem to hate.

Leia using the Force to save herself: We knew in ESB and ROTJ that she had latent abilities. 30 years later when her life is at stake, it makes sense that any development in skills and survival instinct could lead her to use the relatively little exertion needed to pull herself through the frictionless vacuum of space.

The Yoda scene: I liked it for the most part. Initially he looked a bit off and I thought he was CGI. He looked great when in front of the fire, but not ghostly. I liked the dialogue.

Canto Bight: Though pointless, I like the visuals, music, and even the drunk little alien who mistook BB-8 for a slot machine.

I’ve yet to have my proverbial second viewing to see these things hold up, but wanted to put some things out there that I enjoyed.

The blue elephant in the room.