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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 46

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You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.

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pittrek said:

Guys, is it really such a problem to accept that different people like different things?

Yes.

Joking!

I’m here on this thread becaue I enjoy seeing all the different points of view.

War does not make one great.

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I just enjoy being told my opinions and preferences make no sense.

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Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one).

I would argue that it is literally an impossible one because people would never ever accept it as such, no matter how good it was.

I’m not arguing any of the three new movies are better than the OT, but based on the reaction to TLJ, it’s clear to me that no movie could ever eclipse the original in the “fans” minds.

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TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one).

I would argue that it is literally an impossible one because people would never ever accept it as such.

I’m not arguing any of the three new movies are better than the OT, but based on the reaction to TLJ, it’s clear to me that no movie could ever eclipse the original in the “fans” minds.

I’m not sure how the “‘fans’ minds” feel about it all, but even the originals are just movies to me.

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Blade runner 2049 came pretty close to equalling or in some ways bettering the original, so it’s not impossible but it is bloody* hard.

*Ive just reminded myself of the FO officer saying ‘bloody’ in TLJ.

War does not make one great.

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Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one).

I would argue that it is literally an impossible one because people would never ever accept it as such.

I’m not arguing any of the three new movies are better than the OT, but based on the reaction to TLJ, it’s clear to me that no movie could ever eclipse the original in the “fans” minds.

I’m not sure how the “‘fans’ minds” feel about it all, but even the originals are just movies to me.

They are just movies, but I think it’s fair to say that they’ve elevated beyond that somewhat, they are almost modern fables now.

Cave men told stories and drew on walls, we have Star Wars.

War does not make one great.

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For me it’s quite simple. Star Wars is a language, that has a fairly limited vocabulary, which are the story beats. It also has grammar, which are the rules of the universe, such as becoming a Jedi requires dedication and a lot of training. George Lucas and his collaborators have used this language to make some beautiful sentences, and poems.

What the creators of the ST have done is to change the order of the words in hopes of creating new sentences, and poems. With TFA fans complained the poems are too similar to previous ones. TLJ has opted to more dramatically change the order of the words, but I and a few others argue it hasn’t added many new words to the vocabulary. We also argue it doesn’t allways use the Star Wars grammar. To some of us the sentences have become incomprehensable because of this.

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

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Blade Runner 2049 is an excellent example of a sequel trying its best to outperform the original.

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DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women?intcid=inline_amp

Looks like there actually was an agenda in all this ST.

Sadly fairy tales all root in the old world.

Please fire Kennedy

Please fire yourself (from being a poster in this thread).

Someone’s getting a little defensive.

I reckon he’s allowed to be concerned about modern day politics infiltrating Star Wars.

Right, how dare they give women equal footing.

Not really the point. Women have always been the smart ones in command in Star Wars.

Point is, telling someone to go away because you disagree with them is not a valid argument.

There are exactly 4 women with speaking roles in the OT. Three of them have less than a minute of screen time.

He said to fire Kennedy because she has an agenda. I don’t see why I should have to make a valid argument when he isn’t either. Calling for her to be fired is just as inflaming, if not more so.

Star Wars is in another galaxy far far away.

So the “humans” are aliens who just look like humans. This isn’t something happening on Earth.

Also, most of the OT is pretty much in a warzone. If you watch WWII type movies, there aren’t a lot of women in the warzone, etc.

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Ryan said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women?intcid=inline_amp

Looks like there actually was an agenda in all this ST.

Sadly fairy tales all root in the old world.

Please fire Kennedy

Please fire yourself (from being a poster in this thread).

Someone’s getting a little defensive.

I reckon he’s allowed to be concerned about modern day politics infiltrating Star Wars.

Right, how dare they give women equal footing.

Not really the point. Women have always been the smart ones in command in Star Wars.

Point is, telling someone to go away because you disagree with them is not a valid argument.

There are exactly 4 women with speaking roles in the OT. Three of them have less than a minute of screen time.

He said to fire Kennedy because she has an agenda. I don’t see why I should have to make a valid argument when he isn’t either. Calling for her to be fired is just as inflaming, if not more so.

Star Wars is in another galaxy far far away.

So the “humans” are aliens who just look like humans. This isn’t something happening on Earth.

So this other galaxy has to be male-dominated to the point of ridiculousness?

Also, most of the OT is pretty much in a warzone. If you watch WWII type movies, there aren’t a lot of women in the warzone, etc.

Yeah, there’s a reason for that, and it’s not because women can’t fight.

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DrDre said:

For me it’s quite simple. Star Wars is a language, that has a fairly limited vocabulary, which are the story beats. It also has grammar, which are the rules of the universe, such as becoming a Jedi requires dedication and a lot of training.

Unless you’re Luke.

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DrDre said:

For me it’s quite simple. Star Wars is a language, that has a fairly limited vocabulary, which are the story beats. It also has grammar, which are the rules of the universe, such as becoming a Jedi requires dedication and a lot of training. George Lucas and his collaborators have used this language to make some beautiful sentences, and poems.

What the creators of the ST have done is to change the order of the words in hopes of creating new sentences, and poems. With TFA fans complained the poems are to similar to previous ones. TLJ has opted to more dramatically change the order of the words, but I and a few others argue it hasn’t added many new words to the vocabulary. We also argue it doesn’t allways use the Star Wars grammar. To some of us the sentences have become incomprehensable because of this.

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

beautifully put

Assimilate THIS!

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DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

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chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

I think people have this notion of what Star Wars is supposed to be, and whatever that notion is, it’s fairly well boxed into a space that is unattainable for new content. Like it has been said: TFA played it safe and people hated it. R1 took a tangent with new characters and people hated it. TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.

I think they should have cherry picked from the expanded universe to do this new trilogy. It was there for the taking. What we got from Disney looks/feels like crap fan fiction.

Still hope we someday get copies of Lucas’s ST treatment he had given to Disney back in 2012.

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Ryan said:

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

I think people have this notion of what Star Wars is supposed to be, and whatever that notion is, it’s fairly well boxed into a space that is unattainable for new content. Like it has been said: TFA played it safe and people hated it. R1 took a tangent with new characters and people hated it. TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.

I think they should have cherry picked from the expanded universe to do this new trilogy. It was there for the taking. What we got from Disney looks/feels like crap fan fiction.

So they did pick from the EU then?

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 (Edited)

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

There’s no way you didn’t get a complete déjà vu when Rey and Kylo were in the elevator reciting the same lines Luke and Vader did some 34 years ago.

Edit: I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

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Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.

I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…

I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.

I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.

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TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Not sure if I understand. Are you saying I (and the minority who feels the same way) just don’t want new Star Wars films? If so, what are you basing this on?

I had this feeling in 2015 reading this forum as well…it’s like a bunch of you say you want Star Wars but then you don’t want lightsabers, or X-wings, or old Luke, or anything that is in any way Star Wars. And then when you get some things that are not Star Wars enough in your opinion, you say that nothing is connected to Star Wars in any meaningful way.

I’m thinking it would have made sense story wise based on the OT to not have any Storm Troopers or Star Destroyers in the ST. Or at least not like what we are getting with the New Order. This New Order feels like what happened in the OT with the death of Vader and the Emperor was kind of pointless. The New Order takes away from the weight of what happened in Jedi.

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NFBisms said:

Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.

I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…

I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.

I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more the obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.

That is a valid point, but I would argue that by doing that, you’re not really continuing the story. By doing that you are making a meta commentary on its earlier parts.

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 (Edited)

NFBisms said:

Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.

I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…

I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.

I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.

Not with Rey though. Her only flaw is being a nobody and that’s not a flaw at all. Maybe you could make a case for her being an idealist but she’s never even punished or suffers for any of her choices, and that’s not necessarily a flaw either. Her character is still almost the same character she was at the beginning of TFA, except that now she’s a lot more powerful, without any real explanation as to how. One of the few differences between TLJ Rey and TFA Rey is that she cares about the cause and about 2 or 3 people, but that’s it. I just can’t see Rey as a compelling character.

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Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Not sure if I understand. Are you saying I (and the minority who feels the same way) just don’t want new Star Wars films? If so, what are you basing this on?

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Well, I think it’s actually quite a challenge to find a story beat, that isn’t in some way derived from the OT. It usually either does more or less the same, or the opposite. If it was really a new story, it wouldn’t depend completely on OT events.

Yeah, i am saying it seems like people don’t want new star wars films, based on the fact that i completely fail to understand what people want. You can tell me that it is too derivative, or to similar, or didn’t do this or that. but i really have never understood what you or those other people would actually want to see.

So of course, i know that those who say these things often make claims about what they want. But despite this, i really don’t believe that they actually know what they want. Sure, that is me being a bit judgmental, but that is the truth about how it strikes me.

Once again, I want new Star Wars films. I quite liked TFA and R1 despite their flaws. I am just baffled that where most people - even some of its harshest critics - see originality in TLJ, I see just a slight variation.

So what again didn’t you like about TLJ, other than its supposed lack of new ideas? Because I thought TFA had no new ideas either?

The (not so) slight rehash of TFA was an issue. But back then I truly believed it served a specific purpose. To “begin to make things right”. Reintroduce the familiar and introduce the new, so that from there the story can go where it has never gone before. And then the rehash kept going, while most people applauded for something we’ve never seen before in Star Wars.

TFA and TLJ wouldn’t have been a rehash if there was no “New Order” type thing in these new movies. i.e. no Death Star, no Storm Troopers, No Star Destroyers, etc. and then you don’t get any rehash.

I wish I could go to an alternate universe and watch their ST that didn’t have a “New Order” type thing in it.

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NFBisms said:

TLJ is different to me not because of its plot choices but thematically. Its substance, outside of the superficial tropes and rearranged story beats, is incongruous with the rest of the franchise.

There are a bunch of core themes about good and evil, heroism, and redemption, that were essentially the heart guiding the past two trilogies. TLJ goes around to challenge those, and comments on the meta-narrative of the old stories rather than try to continue them.

It’s not different because of what happens in it. I mean, to an extent it makes unexpected choices, but it still borrows plot elements.

What makes it new is how it’s not beholden to what came before and isn’t particularly interested in setting up what comes after. It’s entirely character/theme driven, and the things it explores isn’t even trying to be classic SW.

Thank you.

This is one of the more intelligent and insightful posts on what makes TLJ different. So naturally it’s been ignored.