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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 35

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Make it animated and give it to Tartakovsky and I’m in.

ChainsawAsh disappears a lot - bkev

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TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

But I think George Lucas wanted to sell toys, and thus needed Storm Troopers and the Empire in the old trilogy.

Seriously, anyone who only complains about Disney marketing apparently is too young to remember the OT marketing.

I’m not talking about marketing that comes naturally out of a movie. But I do think they put the New Order and new Storm Troopers into the story to sell toys vs. it being needed or wanted in the progression of the story past ROTJ.

I mean look at the clone troopers in AOTC. That was there to serve the story i.e. Luke in ANH talking about Obi-Wan fighting in the Clone Wars.

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Ryan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

But I think George Lucas wanted to sell toys, and thus needed Storm Troopers and the Empire in the old trilogy.

Seriously, anyone who only complains about Disney marketing apparently is too young to remember the OT marketing.

I’m not talking about marketing that comes naturally out of a movie. But I do think they put the New Order and new Storm Troopers into the story to sell toys vs. it being needed or wanted in the progression of the story past ROTJ.

I mean look at the clone troopers in AOTC. That was there to serve the story i.e. Luke in ANH talking about Obi-Wan fighting in the Clone Wars.

LOL (and I never use LOL). Do you really think the Phase II clone troopers, different color armor paint, and different clone trooper classes in ROTS had nothing to do with marketing and selling toys? That all that was there to “serve the story?”

ChainsawAsh disappears a lot - bkev

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One of my favorite parts about the ST is how it has the feeling that we missed a few episodes (just like the OT). It leaves room for surprises, speculation, and mystery.

(The problem with this approach being that, because Lucas actually made the missing episodes that came before the OT, audiences have come to expect answers to questions that never needed to be provided in the OT - such as the identity of the Emperor).

I’d love to see the story of Luke’s jedi too, but a book or a cartoon would work just fine.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Ryan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

But I think George Lucas wanted to sell toys, and thus needed Storm Troopers and the Empire in the old trilogy.

Seriously, anyone who only complains about Disney marketing apparently is too young to remember the OT marketing.

I’m not talking about marketing that comes naturally out of a movie. But I do think they put the New Order and new Storm Troopers into the story to sell toys vs. it being needed or wanted in the progression of the story past ROTJ.

I mean look at the clone troopers in AOTC. That was there to serve the story i.e. Luke in ANH talking about Obi-Wan fighting in the Clone Wars.

LOL (and I never use LOL). Do you really think the Phase II clone troopers, different color armor paint, and different clone trooper classes in ROTS had nothing to do with marketing and selling toys? That all that was there to “serve the story?”

It can be both. But the Clone Troopers served the story first. There was a Clone Wars that happened before Obi-Wan and Anakin fought on the volcano. Plus it helps to establish the Storm Troopers in OT even though I know a lot of them by then weren’t clones anymore.

From reading things years ago. It seems like in the 80’s and 90’s a lot of people were theorizing what was the Clone Wars and the talk of the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin on the side of a volcano. So those things being in the prequels served the story. Though I’m sure they loved selling clone trooper toys too.

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It’s not that I want to know the backstory about Snoke. It’s that Snoke shouldn’t exist in the post-OT Star Wars universe.

The Disney Trilogy is seemingly set in an entirely different universe from the PT and the OT.

We get ZERO recognition that the events of the OT occurred. We have to start realizing that TFA was a full-on J.J. Abrahams Soft Reboot of Star Wars back to the state of A New Hope. It’s like Endor never occurred.

We’re not expecting answers because Lucas and the PT gave us answers. We’re expecting the answers that the ORIGINAL trilogy gave us, such as the Emperor being defeated. When TFA comes out and the Emperor is still alive via Snoke, that’s why we need answers.

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KILLOFFPOE said:

It’s not that I want to know the backstory about Snoke. It’s that Snoke shouldn’t exist in the post-OT Star Wars universe.

The Disney Trilogy is seemingly set in an entirely different universe from the PT and the OT.

We get ZERO recognition that the events of the OT occurred. We have to start realizing that TFA was a full-on J.J. Abrahams Soft Reboot of Star Wars back to the state of A New Hope. It’s like Endor never occurred.

We’re not expecting answers because Lucas and the PT gave us answers. We’re expecting the answers that the ORIGINAL trilogy gave us, such as the Emperor being defeated. When TFA comes out and the Emperor is still alive via Snoke, that’s why we need answers.

First of all saying there’s “zero” recognition is just absurd hyperbole. I’d laugh if this kind of statement wasn’t so popular.

Second, the OT never said that killing the Emperor would end the Sith once and for all (or anything like that). The PT said that. And even the PT never said that ending the Sith once and for all would put an end to the dark side once and for all. That’s a ridiculous notion. The dark side will always be there, and the light will always have to fight back. That’s a powerful and true sentiment, and that’s what the ST is all about.

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Anchorhead said:

Nandi said:
big thanks for brining that nonstop cartoon Disney humor, we needed it drown the sorrow.

You mean like they did with the characters stepping in poop, farting, Keystone Kops antics on the battlefield, droids getting their heads switched, etc? Yeah, that was so stup…oh, wait, that was all from Lucas.

Never forget! 😛

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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In The Force Awakens we saw some Senators on balconies or something as they were getting nuked.

That is the one and only piece of evidence that a post-Empire world existed. And now it doesn’t exist, because they were nuked in TFA.

Otherwise it’s exactly as if the Empire never lost power. Perhaps an orderly off-screen transition of power from Palpatine to Snoke occurred in this universe.

It was a complete soft reboot. Somehow they’ve convinced fans to insist that the First Order is just a small little imperial remnant despite all evidence to the contrary.

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DominicCobb said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

It’s not that I want to know the backstory about Snoke. It’s that Snoke shouldn’t exist in the post-OT Star Wars universe.

The Disney Trilogy is seemingly set in an entirely different universe from the PT and the OT.

We get ZERO recognition that the events of the OT occurred. We have to start realizing that TFA was a full-on J.J. Abrahams Soft Reboot of Star Wars back to the state of A New Hope. It’s like Endor never occurred.

We’re not expecting answers because Lucas and the PT gave us answers. We’re expecting the answers that the ORIGINAL trilogy gave us, such as the Emperor being defeated. When TFA comes out and the Emperor is still alive via Snoke, that’s why we need answers.

First of all saying there’s “zero” recognition is just absurd hyperbole. I’d laugh if this kind of statement wasn’t so popular.

Second, the OT never said that killing the Emperor would end the Sith once and for all (or anything like that). The PT said that. And even the PT never said that ending the Sith once and for all would put an end to the dark side once and for all. That’s a ridiculous notion. The dark side will always be there, and the light will always have to fight back. That’s a powerful and true sentiment, and that’s what the ST is all about.

All of this.

ChainsawAsh disappears a lot - bkev

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Killoffpoe has a point, but it’s more against TFA than TLJ. TLJ was the best movie possible from the setup TFA gave us. I also didn’t like how we simply went back to the point where we were at the beginning of Star Wars without any real explanation.
I think Episode VII should’ve been the story told in the flashbacks + the New Republic being set up + the First Order rising silently
TFA should’ve been Episode VIII
TLJ Episode IX

Because, as a lot of people said, it really works just fine as a finale.

you guys did it! thank you guys so much! 😄

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KILLOFFPOE said:

In The Force Awakens we saw some Senators on balconies or something as they were getting nuked.

That is the one and only piece of evidence that a post-Empire world existed. And now it doesn’t exist, because they were nuked in TFA.

Otherwise it’s exactly as if the Empire never lost power. Perhaps an orderly off-screen transition of power from Palpatine to Snoke occurred in this universe.

It was a complete soft reboot. Somehow they’ve convinced fans to insist that the First Order is just a small little imperial remnant despite all evidence to the contrary.

I agree and that’s really why I don’t like TFA as a film. Aside from my other complaints about the movie, I generally feel like it took the Star Wars story nowhere despite being set 30 years in the future. But I thought The Last Jedi had potential to build off of TFA and flesh out the trilogy in a way that I could enjoy despite my issues of it. Now the idea behind The Last Jedi and the themes in it are interesting (if honestly not all that original to Star Wars as some people keep claiming it is), but the execution left a really bad taste in my mouth. Especially because more than half of that movie was a waste of my time and ultimately pointless as it didn’t progress the plot and just retread a character arc already gone through in The Force Awakens.
That’s partially why the “lol you didn’t like TFA because it wasn’t original, but hated TLJ because it was” argument is really annoying and tiresome. It’s an easy way to deflect criticism while pretending you actually understand the criticism people are saying. Also it’s really just plain insulting.

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Ryan said:
I even remember the movie ‘A Series of Unfortunate Events’ in the theater and the boom mic kept dropping down into the picture all throughout the movie. Then on the DVD release, they must have digitally removed the boom mic as I didn’t see it drop into picture like in the theater.

Wasn’t sure if this was answered yet, but that was because the theater had the wrong mask/lens setup. It has been known to happen, but I’ve never witnessed it. Same thing can happen on movie home releases if they screw it up.

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dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

The Disney Trilogy would be so much better if Po was killed off in the opening scenes of TFA as they originally planned.

Poe is a great character so I disagree. However I didn’t call myself SAVEPOE so you probably feel stronger about it than I do.

I actually think we could have done without Poe in TFA. But I feel like his character finally makes sense now in TLJ.

He’s very much Leia’s heir. She picked him out and was training him to take her place as a leader. She trusted him with the important mission to Lor San Tekka and he led the Resistance Starfighter corps. Now that Carrie is gone, we need someone to take over her leadership role, and this carries over the themes of the trilogy.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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I’ve not been able to see it a second time yet, but this story point still bothers me, and hopefully someone can me make sense of it.
Luke went on this amazing rant on how the Force and the Jedi Order were seriously flawed; how dare the high and mighty Jedi claim the Force as vanity, right? He goes on to teach Rey the ways of the Force, but not because she must become a Jedi, but in order to learn why not to learn the Force in same manner as the Jedi in the past have. She must find that balance, at least that seemed to be Luke’s intention.
However… Rey eventually leaves and then Yoda appears. Was that whole interaction between him and Luke basically Yoda telling Luke, “No, the Jedi Order is fine”; dismissing the whole rant Luke made earlier? Plus at the end, Luke says there is indeed a last “Jedi”, of course referring to Rey.

Basically what I’m asking is that we’re keeping the status-quo that Jedi are mighty heroes, and that those teachings are A-OK? Because if that’s the case, I seriously would love the risk taken to have Rey, as many had hoped, to be a more “gray” Force user that subscribed to neither dogma of Jedi or Sith but instead synthesizing both sides to have more whole-view of it all. But by the end, it’s like Rey is still this super bright light of goody-two-shoes Jedi…

What’s everyone else’s take on this?

The Hope Awakens

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Rey has the books, she has her experiences and she will have to forge her own path, be a Jedi in her own way. The old order is dead, the Sith are dead, there is only the Force.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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lovelikewinter said:

Rey has the books, she has her experiences and she will have to forge her own path, be a Jedi in her own way. The old order is dead, the Sith are dead, there is only the Force.

Yeah that is true regarding her keeping the books; that’s the only story thread I think that will allow Rey to learn the rules in order to break the rules in IX. Just the way we leave off with TLJ does it seem like we’re shunning that idea, but I could be misreading this totally.

The Hope Awakens

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lovelikewinter said:

Rey has the books, she has her experiences and she will have to forge her own path, be a Jedi in her own way. The old order is dead, the Sith are dead, there is only the Force.

Yeah.

The Jedi were flawed, absolutely. But that doesn’t mean they have to end completely. They can change instead.

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I’m still pondering Rey’s experience in the Dark Side hole/cave. Luke seemed very wary of it. (Had he ever gone down there?) It was nothing like Luke’s experience on Dagobah. No phantasms appeared to her. It was nothing I expected at all.

Is the Force neither dark or light save for what you bring with you?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

I’m still pondering Rey’s experience in the Dark Side hole/cave. Luke seemed very wary of it. (Had he ever gone down there?) It was nothing like Luke’s experience on Dagobah. No phantasms appeared to her. It was nothing I expected at all.

Is the Force neither dark or light save for what you bring with you?

The way I interpreted that scene was Rey was tempted somewhat by the dark side due to thirst of knowledge or resolution regarding her parents. As if the dark side was lulling her into the void by promising her the answer she wanted since the other way with Luke wasn’t getting her closer. Her experience is still similar to Luke’s dark side cave experience; Vader’s helmet blows up to show a mirror image of Luke’s face, and Rey literally gets a mirror of herself on the wall.

But at the same time, Luke’s dark side cave interaction was much more clear that Luke was driven by impatience, which highlighted his recklessness that could corrupt him to the dark side much easier. Rey kinda just falls into it and… I don’t know, the whole sequence was weird as I can’t fully say for sure the reasons behind her were temptations of the dark side or mere curiosity that had nothing to do with the dark side. Maybe that’s the intention /shrug.

The Hope Awakens

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If the Dark Side was trying to tempt her, it didn’t try very hard. I guess it can’t fake a vision of her parents?

For that matter, why can’t Rey remember what they looked like?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Whoa guys, chill. I was just saying I didn’t get why my terminology was so bad. I edited my post before I even replied to Oojason, so I don’t even see why I was getting dog piled. I fucked up and I’m sorry. I didn’t come here to argue semantics I came here to talk some Star Wars.

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My early experience with The Force Awakens was somewhat disappointing, as what I was really hoping for was Luke. The film did well capturing the tone and atmosphere of the original trilogy, though without a great deal of mythical substance. However, the film was a fun ride, if not wholly original, and it ended with the promise of a whole lotta Luke in the next movie.

Now that The Last Jedi has come out, after effectively four years or so of building up Luke Skywalker for me, this new film feels like a slap in the face. I do not mean in terms of the film’s quality, but as a deliberate thematic gesture. I question whether this was the right move to make, as it seems obvious Mark Hamill has, though the film is more or less successful in what it seeks to do in this regard. However, it comes across as deeply incongruous with the films that came before, most strikingly with The Force Awakens itself. It is baffling to me, and seems to betray the story that film was trying to set up. I don’t care about Rey’s parents being nobodies; I rather like that decision. I would have liked to see Snoke be tied into the saga at large in some way, but I don’t really have a problem with him being axed, aside from the incongruity with the storytelling of TFA.
Basically, the Luke stuff is very hard to swallow and feels very wrong for a variety of reasons. And the rest of the movie is dominated by SNL-level humor and ‘Droids’ cartoony silliness. Finn and Rose are grating, and BB8 commandeering an AT-ST is almost on the level of C-3PO in the Geonosian droid factory. The pacing and plot structure is all over the place. If I could edit apart the film into Rey’s story and everyone else’s story, I might be able to digest it a little easier. As much as I dislike Yoda’s visuals, his scene is touching, and goes the furthest to help Luke grow in this film. I still do not really understand how the lesson about accepting and learning from failure leads to Luke’s confrontation at the end. Does anyone else? It seems like he is sacrificing himself so the Resistance can escape, but I am straining to connect the dots to form a throughline with Luke.

Also, this movie suffers greatly in my mind by having several too many fakeouts or misdirections. Having what looks like a spaceship turn out to be an iron in the laundry room is one thing, but the movie contains so many of these that it honestly made me feel like a fucking idiot by the end, and left me almost giving up on trying to understand it. After Kylo Ren’s dialogue about letting the past die and the ship being rammed, the clear implication seemed to be that all the main characters aboard were killed in a stunning narrative mood. (Just kidding; here’s BB8 in an AT-ST.) Finn is about to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance. (Just kidding, you silly goose.) Rose dies. (Just kidding, I guess… I honestly forgot she didn’t die until I saw it again because there’s too much of this going on!)

There’s several of these even in the Yoda scene alone: Luke says he’s going to burn the tree down, then hesitates and seems to feel remorse about having wanted to. Then Yoda blows it up and laughs, confirming to Luke that, no, he was actually right in the first place to burn it down. Luke appears to accept this from Yoda, then becomes very defensive for a second about the Jedi texts. Yoda seems to tell Luke that the texts are better off gone, implying Rey already has what she needs without them. (JUST KIDDING; the Jedi texts are aboard the Falcon at the end in a shot I completely missed after seeing the film twice. What does this shot suggest about the Yoda scene, and Luke’s dialogue ABOUT Rey becoming a Jedi??? Does Luke KNOW she has the texts? Does Yoda?)

This movie makes me feel like I am locked in the house of mirrors and the Joker is laughing at me. They won’t even let me read the novelization until late March. Even if someone explains all these things to me in as best a way as can be done, this movie will always be a problem.