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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 221

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TV’s Frink said:

rodneyfaile said:

WW1 was called “the war to end all wars.” Then approximately 20 years later, WW2 started. There is no such thing as “and they lived happily ever after.” Life goes on. There is always another story.

Exactly. Some people just didn’t get the next story they wanted.

Y’all are arguing against a straw man. No one is saying that they wanted a movie based in a time of peace where there is no war. What we wanted was a war that was different to what we saw in the OT and not set up exactly the same way but with just replaced names for both sides. So no, there’s not some specific story that I needed like some fanboy that I didn’t receive, I’m someone who enjoyed the films and has some real flaws with them on a creative storytelling level.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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Originality is overrated. In reality it actually has little to do with quality. Just because a movie has similarities to another movie doesn’t mean it has “real flaws.” It’s as cheap a kind of film criticism as pointing out plot holes and continuity errors - very basic and surface level. If movies were actually judged by originality then a lot of classic movies would be widely considered flawed too (for example, the works of Tarantino, also a little movie called Star Wars).

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DominicCobb said:

Originality is overrated. In reality it actually has little to do with quality. Just because a movie has similarities to another movie doesn’t mean it has “real flaws.” It’s as cheap a kind of film criticism as pointing out plot holes and continuity errors - very basic and surface level. If movies were actually judged by originality then a lot of classic movies would be widely considered flawed too (for example, the works of Tarantino, also a little movie called Star Wars).

Sorry, but that argument really doesn’t fly IMO. We’re speaking about a set of films that recycle heavily elements from previous entries in the same series both narratively and aesthetically, a series that was once known for it’s originality in many, many respects. In my view this once progressive franchise has now devolved into an endlessly self-referential pale shadow of its former self.

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Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

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DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

Nope, not joking at all. Because that’s not really what we’re discussing here. There’s nothing story-wise (and a lot otherwise) in Star Wars that is original.

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TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M

For starters.

I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

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DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M

For starters.

I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

Weird, it’s almost like TFA and TLJ combined similar plot beats with original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

Nope, not joking at all. Because that’s not really what we’re discussing here. There’s nothing story-wise (and a lot otherwise) in Star Wars that is original.

It is what we’re really discussing here. Star Wars provided a unique visual and auditory experience, as did it’s sequels and prequels to a somewhat lesser degree up till the ST. Borrowing elements from other works of fiction and combining them into something new and original is not the same as borrowing heavily from previous Star Wars films both visually and narratively to create another Star Wars film.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M

For starters.

I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

Weird, it’s almost like TFA and TLJ combined similar plot beats with original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

More Tie fighters, X-wings, and Star Destroyers, not really original in my view. I guess we’ve never seen a black X-wing before. The ST represents a slightly more modern take on the OT, but very little in these films is not some variation of OT story threads, aesthetics, and designs. So, in my view the visual and auditory experience is anything but original.

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You guys have to be joking.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

Nope, not joking at all. Because that’s not really what we’re discussing here. There’s nothing story-wise (and a lot otherwise) in Star Wars that is original.

Borrowing elements from other works of fiction and combining them into something new and original is not the same as borrowing heavily from previous Star Wars films both visually and narratively to create another Star Wars film.

Except the ST is literally “borrowing elements from other works of fiction and combining them into something new and original.” Just that some of the other works of fiction are Star Wars movies, which just makes sense considering there are other Star Wars movies that exist.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M

For starters.

I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

Weird, it’s almost like TFA and TLJ combined similar plot beats with original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.

More Tie fighters, X-wings, and Star Destroyers, not really original in my view. I guess we’ve never seen a black X-wing before. The ST represents a slightly more modern take on the OT, but very little in these films is not some variation of OT story threads, aesthetics, and designs. So, in my view the visual and auditory experience is anything but original.

You listed three designs out of thousands. That’s incredibly reductive. Not to mention SW was creating a new universe, whereas the ST is creating within an existing universe. Sure the PT had designs that looked nothing like the OT. But that was a problem.

Collipso said:

You guys have to be joking.

Nope.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

Unique =/= original.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

Star Wars is at least 40% Hidden Fortress. Star Wars was literally built as a combination of a bunch of different preexisting stories. Hate to break it to you, but it’s true. Some of us appreciate it for doing that, rather than pretending it was the most original story ever.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

I will speak for myself. I’ve seen a lot of movies, I know what I like. Originality levels are essentially arbitrary. Nothing is original. There are far more important things to judge the quality of a movie by. TFA and TLJ are good stories told well. Just because some plot beats are vaguely similar to other movies doesn’t make them worse. Neither does the fact that they have the same aesthetic as other movies in the same series (I don’t know how this is even a criticism).

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Sure the PT had designs that looked nothing like the OT. But that was a problem.

I disagree, that the PT designs were a problem. My issues with the PT is how these designs were used. The then state of the art CGI made these designs seem less tangible, and the PT world thus often seemed cartoony. However, aside from the fact that Lucas crammed too much stuff in a frame, I think the designs were one of the best parts of the PT.

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DrDre said:

Sure the PT had designs that looked nothing like the OT. But that was a problem.

I disagree, that the PT designs were a problem. My issues with the PT is how these designs were used. The then state of the art CGI made these designs seem less tangible, and the PT world thus often seemed cartoony. However, aside from the fact that Lucas crammed too much stuff in a frame, I think the designs were one of the best parts of the PT.

The PT, which is set between 32 and 19 years before SW (not that much time), look basically like a different film series altogether. That’s not a good thing, in my opinion.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

You should see the letters column of magazines like Cinefantastique back in 1977. Lucas was accused of ripping off everything from Lensman to Dune.
Back then you really had to be ticked off to write a letter and lick a stamp. 😛

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”

You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.

You should see the letters column of magazines like Cinefantastique back in 1977. Lucas was accused of ripping off everything from Lensman to Dune.
Back then you really had to be ticked off to write a letter and lick a stamp. 😛

At least Disney made it easy on us by just ripping off Star Wars films 😛.

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Collipso said:

You guys have to be joking.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

Everything right here. And again people, I enjoy the ST but oh well, I guess my flaw isn’t real enough of one to have any importance to my own view of the films.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

Author
Time

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

You guys have to be joking.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

Everything right here. And again people, I enjoy the ST but oh well, I guess my flaw isn’t real enough of one to have any importance to my own view of the films.

This. I just think the ST is extremely overrated so I come off as a hater.

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Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

You guys have to be joking.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

Everything right here. And again people, I enjoy the ST but oh well, I guess my flaw isn’t real enough of one to have any importance to my own view of the films.

This. I just think the ST is extremely overrated so I come off as a hater.

I think Force Awakens is a decent adventure flick. And I really love the Last Jedi despite a few minor issues with pacing and humor.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

You guys have to be joking.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

Everything right here. And again people, I enjoy the ST but oh well, I guess my flaw isn’t real enough of one to have any importance to my own view of the films.

This. I just think the ST is extremely overrated so I come off as a hater

Quafruaple flauple post.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

You guys have to be joking.

To defend the ST you guys are now saying that the original Star Wars wasn’t original. The movie was literally something never seen before. People had seen several of the elements separately, yes, like Dre and Frink said, but never together, never something like that. Heck, before McQuarrie people thought Lucas was insane with his imageless crazy ideas. It was absolutely unique.

TLJ and TFA have basically ripped off their predecessors. Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever. Star Wars’ story might be similar to The Hobbit, for example, but it’s because they follow the Hero’s Journey. And I think that the Hero’s Journey is the natural progression of most everyman hero stories, so I definitely don’t consider Luke’s story a ripoff.

One can argue that RotJ has way too similar beats to Star Wars but I disagree. Especially now that we have TFA and TLJ to compare for ripoff levels.

“Originality is overrated” speak for yourself. I, for example, value an original idea not that well executed more than that same old idea we’ve seen before done decently.

Everything right here. And again people, I enjoy the ST but oh well, I guess my flaw isn’t real enough of one to have any importance to my own view of the films.

This. I just think the ST is extremely overrated so I come off as a hater.

Quafruaple flauple post.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives