Sign In

The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 22

Author
Time
 (Edited)

After a second viewing, my problems with the movies are as follows:

To quote DrDre:
"Rey’s fast progression from junk dealer to Jedi is not a matter of originality, but consistency. There can’t be more than a few days to a few weeks between the start of TFA and the ending of TLJ. As a matter of fact TLJ takes place over a matter of hours, considering the whole out of fuel plot. In that time Rey is given a highly condensed version of Luke’s arc over two films, starting on a backwater planet to learn the ways of the Force, and ending up in the big bad’s throne room, and finally as the last Jedi. The problem here of course is, that she hardly recieves any training, and ultimately isn’t really tested or suffers any serious setbacks. She crawls through a river of **** and comes out clean at the end, apparently greater and wiser than Luke Skywalker himself, making the old Jedi Master redundant to the point, that he can die at peace mirroring Yoda’s death in ROTJ.

While Snoke’s death was shocking, and overall reasonably well executed, he’s reduced to a plot device, because his character hasn’t been properly set up, or his history and motivations explained. His function seems merely to prop up Kylo Ren, who after being deflated at the end of TFA, now is reinvented as the big bad of the ST, but without the necessary development and character growth. This criticism again is not a matter of originality, but story and character development.

The criticism against the representation of Luke Skywalker is also one of consistency, particulary the idea that Luke would contemplate the murder of his nephew. This 180 degree turn in his character is severely underdeveloped, and only explained in a single scene in which he reads his nephew’s mind realizing Snoke had already won Ben’s heart. This also comes back to the complete lack of developement of Snoke, and the history between Snoke and Kylo. We’re now supposed to believe, that Luke who refused to kill his father and accept he was lost to the dark side, knowing all the terrible things his father had done under the guise of Darth Vader, now gives up on his young nephew based on a vision of the future, a future he knows to allways be in motion. This scene might have worked, if we had learned a bit more about Luke’s psychological state post-ROTJ. He could have told Rey, that his father’s death, and learning about the true magnitude of Vader’s crimes had left him emotionally scarred, and he grew obsessed with preventing the birth of another Darth Vader. He’d found the strength to forgive his father, but the price of his father’s redemption had been too great for the galaxy. If the whole Jedi order couldn’t prevent his father’s turn, how could he by himself create a new and stable Jedi order? So, against Yoda’s council, for years he had refused to train a new generation of Jedi, to pass on what he had learned, until young Ben was born, and against his better judgement decided to mentor Ben and a few other students. He wasn’t ready to be a teacher, and young Ben sensed Luke’s trepidation, blaming himself. Snoke ceased the opportunity to corrupt the insecure and impressionable Ben, leading to the scene in the film."

The flow of scenes in the first act felt weird because of the multiple plots going on at the same time. IMO they should have focused on one of them for more time than they did, without just going back and forth, killing the pace and tone of the movie. A restructure of the first act and half of the second would improve the movie immensely.

The excessive jokes, like in The Force Awakens were just not funny and distracting to me. I love jokes in movies, and I loved them in this movie when they worked, like most of the funny stuff with Luke. However, the amount of jokes every two scenes made the tone of the movie inconsistent, and that’s just bad. The first scene is a clear example of that, with Poe just toying with General Stupid, and 2 minutes after that Paige (Rose’s sister) sacrifices herself. So because of things like that, the tone throughout the movie was all over the place. I’m not even going to talk about BB-8 in this movie because that was just ridiculous. I didn’t laugh at one scene with him, and man o man were they bad. This also include Maz’s scene.

The way General Hux went from an ok character to the stupidest person in the galaxy. I think it speaks for itself: the character went to comic relief, just like Snoke went to plot device, how R2 was plot device in TFA, etc.

Canto Bight in general. I’m not going to beat a dead horse here; like darthrush said in the TLJ FanEdit thread, everything in between the moment they leave prison to when they’re on the ship felt awful, boring, pace killing and out of place.

I felt like it was a pretty weak plot upon first viewing. Now, after watching the movie a second time, I thought it was much better than what I originally thought, but still far from a good one. I don’t know how to justify this, I just didn’t really like it.

Finally, I think Adam Driver did a much better job this time than in The Force Awakens. I felt like Daisy Ridley was better in TFA, just like John Boyega. Loved Oscar Isaac. Loved Andy Serkis as Snoke, Laura Dern as Holdo and Benicio Del Toro as DJ. Wasn’t a fan of Kelly Marie Tran as Rose. And man, I truly hope Hamill gets an Academy Award nomination for this one. He literally stole the show.

I personally felt like there were some moments where the dialogue was pretty bad, with the delivery just as bad, particularly by Ridley and Boyega.

And that’s it, I guess.

About the Luke stuff: even though I agree with pretty much everything DrDre said about how it was extremely out of character for Luke to do basically everything that he did, I think the way they executed and most importantly the way that Hamill acted it sold the character to me and made me love it. Because of my complaints about the jokes, I must add that even though Luke was never a Joker in the OT, it honestly made sense for the Luke we got to be funny.

If Rey wasn’t as unbelievable, I would love the sequel trilogy, and I’d have loved this movie despite the rest of its flaws. I loved the Kylo/Rey/Luke/Leia stuff, and I loved Poe. I loved how there was no lightsaber fight and how it breaks with the rest of the saga, but I think it went a bit too far with including flashbacks. Consistency, y’know.

Overall, after second viewing, I’d give it a 7.5/10, with 3/10 and 10/10 moments.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The Mystery Box has been opened- AND IT’S EMPTY!

I really liked this movie despite it having some flaws. The stuff with Luke and Rey is fantastic- Yoda was straight out of ESB, beautiful! However the B and C stories were meh at best.

Great Things:
Luke and Rey, Kylo and Rey mind connection, Snoke’s Death, Rey and Kylo’s short lived team up, YODA, Yoda, and Yoda, Andy Serkis acting like he was given some direction this time, Kylo Ren’s origin story having three different tellings, Rey’s parents being junkies, light speed kamikaze, the infinity mirror scene, Luke facing the entire FO fleet on his own, the force projection fake-out, and the return to the binary suns.

Not-so Great Things:
Finn and Rose’s story was a bore, Canto Bight was unimaginative, Poe learning the same lesson 100 times about being trigger-happy, SuperLeia, BB-8 commandeering an AT-ST, the slowest chase of all time between the Supremacy and the Resistance Ship, deactivating another thing on a ship because Star Wars, Phasma going out like a chump AGAIN, the soundtrack sounded like a William’s imitation (sorry, John), DJs awful stutter, the space battles felt like semi-video-gamey-cutscenes.

Things I need to think about:
Luke dying because he was tired.

-showtime

Author
Time
 (Edited)

CartoonWarp said:

The Mystery Box has been opened- AND IT’S EMPTY!

I really liked this movie despite it having some flaws. The stuff with Luke and Rey is fantastic- Yoda was straight out of ESB, beautiful! However the B and C stories were meh at best.

Great Things:
Luke and Rey, Kylo and Rey mind connection, Snoke’s Death, Rey and Kylo’s short lived team up, YODA, Yoda, and Yoda, Andy Serkis acting like he was given some direction this time, Kylo Ren’s origin story having three different tellings, Rey’s parents being junkies, light speed kamikaze, the infinity mirror scene, Luke facing the entire FO fleet on his own, the force projection fake-out, and the return to the binary suns.

Not-so Great Things:
Finn and Rose’s story was a bore, Canto Bight was unimaginative, Poe learning the same lesson 100 times about being trigger-happy, SuperLeia, BB-8 commandeering an AT-ST, the slowest chase of all time between the Supremacy and the Resistance Ship, deactivating another thing on a ship because Star Wars, Phasma going out like a chump AGAIN, the soundtrack sounded like a William’s imitation (sorry, John), DJs awful stutter, the space battles felt like semi-video-gamey-cutscenes.

Things I need to think about:
Luke dying because he was tired.

I don’t think he died because he was tired. I think he died because he was finally at peace with himself. He fulfilled his destiny and then he willingly descended into the force. That’s just how I took it. I’m sure it’s open for interpretation until we hear Johnson give his view of it.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

StarWarsReviewer said:

The Last Jedi: A movie made for stupid people with ADHD
by The Star Wars Reviewer

Lost somewhere in the middle of this interminably long, disjointed, boring, and often cringeworthy construction of a heretical film, there was an especially poignant - if unintentional - scene. Luke Skywalker, the now grayed and bearded old Jedi master, reunites with his long time trusted droid, R2-D2 aboard the Millenium Falcon. Forty years ago, it was this duo that first met in the original Star Wars film, when the droid’s iconic hologram message from Princess Leia, “Help me Obi-wan Kenobi, you’re my only hope!” captured Luke’s attention and sent him on his way, battling for freedom against the evil forces of the Galactic Empire.

During that first meeting, Luke was a young, fresh-faced hero. He was brash. He had his entire life ahead of him, and he wanted nothing more than to leave his middle-of-nowhere existence and find adventure and greater purpose in life. The beautiful Princess Leia’s message was urgent. Her desperation was a call for immediate action, to save her, to save everyone in the galaxy, and Luke was ready and able to accept that heroic task.

Fast forward many decades to this latest abomination of a Star Wars sequel, The Last Jedi, and what director Kathleen Kennedy gives us…erm, I mean director Rian Johnson… is yet another tired retread. More calls for nostalgia. A very visibly aged, yet distinguished, Mark Hamill (Luke) looks around the set of the ship, acknowledges he wants nothing to do with the plot that these writers have drawn up, and then watches the famous hologram before telling his sidekick, “Those were the good old days, huh? Is this what Star Wars has really become?”

No, of course Luke did not say those words, but the audience could hear him thinking them out loud anyway. In the middle of another bad movie, one with so much clutter and attention-distracting junk filled all over the screen, one that felt like an unfortunate mashup of Spaceballs meets Marvel Superheroes, this one scene was the only thing that felt like Star Wars really should feel like. It was vintage, plucked from another time, from a galaxy far far away, and inserted for reflection into a highly corporate toy and game commercial. To answer the pertinent question: yes Luke, like Sitting Bull doing racist stage performances for white men in Buffalo Bill Cody’s Wild West show, mockery for corporate money is indeed what you and Star Wars have become. Well done.

The Last Jedi starts out with perhaps the single most mustache-twirling villain of all mustache-twirling villains, General Hux (Domnall Gleeson), commanding a fleet of the generically evil First Order as it pursues Princess Leia (the late Carrie Fisher) and her band of freedom fighters across the galaxy. The audience is treated to space pursuit shots, followed by close ups of Hux sneering one liners into the camera. Then the audience gets to see more space pursuit shots, followed by more sneering one liners. General Hux honestly feels like a parody James Bond villain, taken straight out of an Austin Powers movie–inspiration The Last Jedi returns to over and over again.

The rest of the plot continues as follows:

After the evil villains engage in off-tone comedic buffoonery (wait, what??) reminiscent of Dark Helmet and Colonel Sandurz, the less than intimidating bad guys counter-intuitively manage to blow up the protagonists’ main ship, killing (General) Princess Leia in the process. But wait…what happens next? What happens next could best be described as Leia’s Space Jesus Moment, where her dead body floats through space and then magically comes back to life. She extends her arm forward and flies across the darkness, until she reaches the safety and oxygen of another friendly ship and its intensive care unit. She then sleeps in a coma until the end of the film.

After this bizarre and awful opening, the story cuts away to a remote island location, where Luke Skywalker is hiding like a coward from his enemies, abandoning his friends, and having visions of that one time where he tried to murder a young boy. Ha ha! But if that doesn’t sound like Star Wars to you, don’t worry, the good filmmakers at Disney have so much more! There are cute and cuddly CGI animals which multiply like rabbits all over the screen. You are sure to notice them, so make sure you look in the online catalogue and buy, buy, buy! There is also bathroom humor. And AT-STs. And Yoda, there has to be Yoda. Now Disney can merchandise him too!

Meanwhile, talented Jedi-in-training Rey (played competently enough by Daisy Ridley) has sought out Skywalker’s help and instruction at his remote medieval fortress. She needs to become stronger in The Force if she’s ever going to beat that Kylo Ren bad guy (Adam Driver) who she already beat in the last movie. Or maybe she needs Luke to come out of retirement and defeat CGI monster Supreme Leader Snoke, who dresses like Goldmember from another Austin Powers movie, and gets killed with little effort by…you guessed it…the bad guy Rey already defeated before.

So much for challenging our heroines, huh?

But difficult challenges would only serve as distractions from what really matters in these movies, and that’s all of the bullshit that has been intentionally designed to sell something to every demographic Disney can possibly imagine. The days of Star Wars invoking archetypes and its stories serving as communal bonding experiences that drew people together through common struggle are long since gone. Watching these new films is like watching a series of commercials while on an amusement park ride. There is some Star Wars-y stuff here, and some things that kind of resemble Star Wars over there. But even if you come across a scene you like, there is no time to let it breath or develop on its own. The car must quickly whisk you away, because after all, there are many more attractions that must be seen and many more products that must be sold.

Just beware of the warning signs: stay off this ride!

0 out of 4 stars
(this was personally the worst Star Wars movie I have ever seen)

No respectable reviewer starts off by insulting people. And I think the ADHD bit is uncalled for.

Petition to change his username to StarWars"Reviewer".

I prefer the route they took, which was just to ban him.

Author
Time

nmr1723 said:

CartoonWarp said:

The Mystery Box has been opened- AND IT’S EMPTY!

I really liked this movie despite it having some flaws. The stuff with Luke and Rey is fantastic- Yoda was straight out of ESB, beautiful! However the B and C stories were meh at best.

Great Things:
Luke and Rey, Kylo and Rey mind connection, Snoke’s Death, Rey and Kylo’s short lived team up, YODA, Yoda, and Yoda, Andy Serkis acting like he was given some direction this time, Kylo Ren’s origin story having three different tellings, Rey’s parents being junkies, light speed kamikaze, the infinity mirror scene, Luke facing the entire FO fleet on his own, the force projection fake-out, and the return to the binary suns.

Not-so Great Things:
Finn and Rose’s story was a bore, Canto Bight was unimaginative, Poe learning the same lesson 100 times about being trigger-happy, SuperLeia, BB-8 commandeering an AT-ST, the slowest chase of all time between the Supremacy and the Resistance Ship, deactivating another thing on a ship because Star Wars, Phasma going out like a chump AGAIN, the soundtrack sounded like a William’s imitation (sorry, John), DJs awful stutter, the space battles felt like semi-video-gamey-cutscenes.

Things I need to think about:
Luke dying because he was tired.

I don’t think he died because he was tired. I think he died because he was finally at peace with himself. He fulfilled his destiny and then he willingly descended into the force. That’s just how I took it. I’m sure it’s open for interpretation until we hear Johnson give his view of it.

Is there a chance Mark Hamill could still appear in IX in a cameo as a Force ghost? Possibly aiding Rey?

Analog Releases of Films That Contain Deleted, Extended, & Alternate Footage That’ve Never Been Released on DVD/BluRay

Author
Time

Tantive3+1 said:

nmr1723 said:

CartoonWarp said:

The Mystery Box has been opened- AND IT’S EMPTY!

I really liked this movie despite it having some flaws. The stuff with Luke and Rey is fantastic- Yoda was straight out of ESB, beautiful! However the B and C stories were meh at best.

Great Things:
Luke and Rey, Kylo and Rey mind connection, Snoke’s Death, Rey and Kylo’s short lived team up, YODA, Yoda, and Yoda, Andy Serkis acting like he was given some direction this time, Kylo Ren’s origin story having three different tellings, Rey’s parents being junkies, light speed kamikaze, the infinity mirror scene, Luke facing the entire FO fleet on his own, the force projection fake-out, and the return to the binary suns.

Not-so Great Things:
Finn and Rose’s story was a bore, Canto Bight was unimaginative, Poe learning the same lesson 100 times about being trigger-happy, SuperLeia, BB-8 commandeering an AT-ST, the slowest chase of all time between the Supremacy and the Resistance Ship, deactivating another thing on a ship because Star Wars, Phasma going out like a chump AGAIN, the soundtrack sounded like a William’s imitation (sorry, John), DJs awful stutter, the space battles felt like semi-video-gamey-cutscenes.

Things I need to think about:
Luke dying because he was tired.

I don’t think he died because he was tired. I think he died because he was finally at peace with himself. He fulfilled his destiny and then he willingly descended into the force. That’s just how I took it. I’m sure it’s open for interpretation until we hear Johnson give his view of it.

Is there a chance Mark Hamill could still appear in IX in a cameo as a Force ghost? Possibly aiding Rey?

I really hope so. I think it would be perfect to see Luke come full circle and be there for Rey like Obi-wan was for him

Author
Time

I saw TLJ last night and have mixed feelings about it. Personally a lot of the things people have issues with don’t bother me like many movies there are good elements and bad elements depending on your tastes and “certain point of view” here are my thoughts

• The opening space battle was super fun and a great way to get into the movie, Poe is a very like able character who certainly was utilized more this time around because he wasn’t original supposed to die this time. Oh and of course B.B.-8 continues to be the greatest droid sidekick since R2-D2 (though K2-S0 was a personal favorite of mine in Rogue One)

• The whole Finn and Rose plot line was actually something I really enjoyed more than the Rey and Luke one which is surprising to me because I really like those two characters. I did like the casino planet as a setting, I loved the fact that they freed the space horse/rabbits and rode them to victory (while also destroying the casino) plus BB-8 being mistaken for a slot machine by a little leprechaun man (played by Mark Hamil by the way) and then using all the coins that he had inserted in him as projectiles to knock out guards was another bit of BB-8 badass-ness that was equally adorable (though I do wonder how he tied them up, was it DJ ?)

• The Rey and Kylo Ren stuff was pretty cool in my opinion, I didn’t mind them communicating through the force. It was cool that we also saw the reasons for kylo turning to the dark side it makes sense for the situation that he’d automatically go into defense mode after waking up and seeing his uncle standing over him with a crazed look in his eyes and holding a lightsaber over him. Though I do wish it were a grander event because it sort of felt like a pretty small thing that happened to set all of this in motion, The reylo shippers probably had a ball with the force communication and the fact that kylo ren appeared shirtless to Rey was pretty freaking Reylo-ey that and when Luke walked in on them “touching” hands and reacting like he caught them fucking was priceless need I mention the elevator scene where manny though (or so I’ve read) Rey and Kylo were about to full on make out on the way to Snoke maybe they will join forces and reshape the galaxy in their image eventually

• SNOKE DIED, that caught me off guard and I really wish he didn’t yet because their is SO much unanswered with him yet, I’m sure it will be explained eventually in another movie though, the Rey and Kylo team up fight against the guards was cool RIP Skywalker lightsaber

• Shockingly I didn’t love the whole Rey and Luke on the island plot line, while it had its moments I sort of felt it was pretty boring overall BUT the dark side cave and ancient Jedi texts were enjoyable for me as was the return of Yoda as a force ghost who as always had great advice (and was also pretty funny too)

• PORGS are freaking adorable, chewie trying to eat one while they watched him in fear was great and so was the part where they’re playing with the lightsaber and sneaking on the falcon and destroying simultaneously while nesting plus now chewie has a porg companion

• General Haldo was decent enough though I do agree with others in saying that Leia should have been the one to sacrifice herself to save the survivors because of carrie’s death in real life it felt like it would have been a good way to kill off the character in a meaningful and respective way. I don’t mind her floating in space and saving herself by pulling the ship or pulling herself to the ship (we know she’s been force sensitive since empire when she sensed Luke on cloud city)

• Poor poor captain Phasma how I wished she had a longer fight with Finn and survived to get revenge (maybe she did ?) while her role was bigger than in TFA it wasn’t nearly enough I feel the same way about Bobba Fett too

• The salt planet was cool enough and the crystal aspect of it was beautiful to look at plus the crystal foxes were pretty amazing looking even if they were just native wildlife that hung around (though they did find a way out) I did think it should have been a different type of planet because it was a bit too similar to Hoth

• Luke having his scene with Leia was nice as was giving her Han’s dice but his duel with Ren was just ok in my opinion, I expected something more epic it was coo that he just force projected himself though and it was interesting to see Luke become one with the force though a bit unexpected

Those are just some of my thoughts and personal opinions but all in all I’ll need to rewatch the movie a few times to really see how I feel needless to say I’m looking forward to the Han Solo movie, Episode 9, the Obi-Wan trilogy and Rian Johnson’s new trilogy

“I will call this one BOHIJ”
-Chris O’Neil

“Heh Funnie Scream”
-The Boys From Oneyplays

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.

Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.

Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.

The next is destroying the past and moving forward:

Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s Lightsaber

Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.

Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.

The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then. “Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter”

I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.

Let me know if I missed anything.

Author
Time

Novus_Opiate said:

Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.

Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.

Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.

The next is destroying the past and moving forward:

Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s Lightsaber

Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.

Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.

The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then.

I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.

Let me know if I missed anything.

I think you got it, nice write up.

Author
Time

Novus_Opiate said:

Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.

Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.

Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.

The next is destroying the past and moving forward:

Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s Lightsaber

Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.

Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.

The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then.

I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.

Let me know if I missed anything.

Pretty good I think, except you mean Rey and Luke, not kylo and Luke.

I did see your comment about the robes and looked for it when I was next in the theater. But I felt like there was another time that Luke wore those robes. Didn’t he have them on when he was training Rey? Or some other scene in between.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

joefavs said:

I definitely noticed at least one of those times. In the comics, Luke gave Poe’s parents a sapling from the tree in the Jedi temple on Coruscant that he recovered from one of the Emperor’s research installations. Growing up around that tree probably endowed him with some level of Forve sensitivity.

WTF? I read that comic and didn’t realize that these two were Poes parents. Although, I read it waaay before I saw the movie and fell in love with the new characters.

Author
Time

By the way in reference to the crystal foxes, I thought they were not very convincing CGI. On watching the second time today I was thinking how to cut them out completely, unfortunately that doesn’t seem possible.

Author
Time

It seems like the Bring Back Legends fucktards were trying to crash the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes. If they really want to do something, how about buying those Legends books I see clogging up every used bookstore?

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

Author
Time

Novus_Opiate said:

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

I’m focusing on this because to me, the main story of this film centers around this flashback between Kylo and Luke. The reason I think the Luke complaints are valid are because it’s absolutely beyond me to think Luke went from the leap of, “Kylo is having dark thoughts” to "I need to kill him RIGHT NOW!"
Luke over the course of three films learned something super important: patience. Luke started out impulsive and impatient, but in ROTJ, he is calm and collected, more wiser. So why in the world is Luke all of a sudden this trigger-saber-happy Jedi master? I’m not even saying Luke should be flawless. I was going to accept that Luke just sucks as a teacher and messed up Kylo’s training. But instead, his mistake was… being impulsive? Yeah yeah, Luke finally felt shame at the last moment, but my goodness, I can’t even fathom Luke’s first option was to march to Kylo’s room, ready to strike with his ignited saber. As far as we know, Kylo hadn’t even done anything bad beyond just having dark thoughts. Luke should be so much wiser to deal with this kind of stuff because he himself did feel the tempt of the darkside in ROTJ, something that Obi-Wan never did and hence why Luke was miles better than most Jedi before him. Luke should be the best person to help Kylo work through it. And fine, if not, Luke should had been figuring options A, B, and C, diving deeper into the mysteries of the Force in an attempt to bring Kylo back to the light. Instead he follows the same exact path of Yoda, which should had been a lesson in of itself to begin with to NOT DO.

This is why I think the complaints are warranted.

The Rise of Failures

Author
Time

Except that isn’t what happened…

Author
Time

dahmage said:

Except that isn’t what happened…

Okay it’s fair to say I’m probably off since I’ve only seen it once; without using a snippy Luke quote from TLJ, what am I wrong about here?

The Rise of Failures

Author
Time
 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

By the way in reference to the crystal foxes, I thought they were not very convincing CGI. On watching the second time today I was thinking how to cut them out completely, unfortunately that doesn’t seem possible.

Apparently they were animatronics that were physically there, according to a John Boyega interview. So at least some of them weren’t CGI.

EDIT: not the interview I was referencing but there is a video about it

http://www.starwars.com/video/the-evolution-of-the-crystal-fox-star-wars-the-last-jedi

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Huh. Maybe they would have actually looked better as CGI then, they just looked very unnatural to me.

Author
Time

I wasn’t terribly impressed by this movie. I guess it’s…okay, but it just felt kind of like a mess to me.

I give it credit for being more creative with the story than TFA, but there were still parts that felt like they were included just to reference moments from previous films. The frustrating thing is that these moments have these superficial veneers painted over them to try to make them feel more original, but it’s so shallow and obvious that it comes across as pandering. For example, there’s another AT-AT assault against a rebel base. But don’t worry, it’s at the end of the movie now! And it looks at first like the ground is covered in snow, but don’t worry, we’ll have a character look right at the camera and tell the audience that it’s actually salt! It’s the same problem I had with Starkiller Base (it’s not technically a Death Star…) Btw, how were those speeders supposed to stop the walkers? They didn’t have any weapons.

I have really mixed feelings on the subplot with Finn and Rose. It feels like it goes on too long, and it’s unnecessarily complicated. They make a big point of needing to find the guy with the flower pin, they find him, he’s in the movie for like 2 seconds, then they just happen to meet another code breaker (who’s annoying as hell, by the way) in the jail cell, then he betrays them, etc you get the point. I’m always saying I want Disney to take more risks with these films and show us something new in the Star Wars universe, but I can’t help but feel that the casino scene felt really…out of place. I don’t know…it just felt a bit too close to a real-world casino inhabited by Star Wars characters.

I think one of the biggest problems for me is that there are several parts that are downright cringe-inducing. Some that come to mind are Leia’s “Mary Poppins” moment, the awful Yoda cameo (Force ghosts can apparently summon lightning now?), Luke milking the sea cow, and the MCU-style humor between Hux and Dameron at the beginning. Actually, most of the humor in the movie didn’t really work for me.

I was also disappointed with the complete lack of any exposition about Snoke. Who the hell is he? How did he corrupt Ben? He looks old, so is there any connection between him and Palpatine? I’m the first to agree that not every detail needs to be spelled out, and I like it when there are things left to the imagination, but it would have been nice to at least know something about him.

However, it’s not all bad. I liked most of the scenes between Rey and Luke, and between Rey and Kylo. I liked how Kylo destroyed his mask, further distancing him from Darth Vader. The fact that he started out as a Vader wanna-be is part of his character, and I liked how it visually symbolized him growing beyond that. I liked the fight scene in the throne room, and I was actually genuinely impressed with the twist at the end. I have mixed feelings about Luke dying, though. It actually shocked me that they killed him off, considering they just killed Han, and Carrie Fisher passed away. Although, in a Star Wars movie, it doesn’t really matter that much, since he can always come back as a Force ghost. I’m very curious to see how Leia’s character will be handled, moving forward.

This turned into a bit of a ramble, and it’s not nearly as well worded as I would like. The movie had its moments, I guess I just wish it was a bit more focused and not as long.

Author
Time

I would think animals that look like they might be silicon based might look less real to us carbon based life forms. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

It might be a stretch but it seems the Superman Leia moment is a call back to Luke on the verge of death in the Wampa cave reaching out in desperation for his light saber to save his own life. He is in a coma of sorts after that experience as well. Still think the moment could’ve been done a lot better though.

Author
Time

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

I’m focusing on this because to me, the main story of this film centers around this flashback between Kylo and Luke. The reason I think the Luke complaints are valid are because it’s absolutely beyond me to think Luke went from the leap of, “Kylo is having dark thoughts” to "I need to kill him RIGHT NOW!"
Luke over the course of three films learned something super important: patience. Luke started out impulsive and impatient, but in ROTJ, he is calm and collected, more wiser. So why in the world is Luke all of a sudden this trigger-saber-happy Jedi master? I’m not even saying Luke should be flawless. I was going to accept that Luke just sucks as a teacher and messed up Kylo’s training. But instead, his mistake was… being impulsive? Yeah yeah, Luke finally felt shame at the last moment, but my goodness, I can’t even fathom Luke’s first option was to march to Kylo’s room, ready to strike with his ignited saber. As far as we know, Kylo hadn’t even done anything bad beyond just having dark thoughts. Luke should be so much wiser to deal with this kind of stuff because he himself did feel the tempt of the darkside in ROTJ, something that Obi-Wan never did and hence why Luke was miles better than most Jedi before him. Luke should be the best person to help Kylo work through it. And fine, if not, Luke should had been figuring options A, B, and C, diving deeper into the mysteries of the Force in an attempt to bring Kylo back to the light. Instead he follows the same exact path of Yoda, which should had been a lesson in of itself to begin with to NOT DO.

This is why I think the complaints are warranted.

He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Author
Time

TavorX said:

dahmage said:

Except that isn’t what happened…

Okay it’s fair to say I’m probably off since I’ve only seen it once; without using a snippy Luke quote from TLJ, what am I wrong about here?

You said

I can’t even fathom Luke’s first option was to march to Kylo’s room, ready to strike with his ignited saber.

That only happened in kylo Ren’s version of the story.

Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo brens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.

No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

The Rise of Failures

Author
Time

dahmage said:

Novus_Opiate said:

Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.

Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.

Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.

The next is destroying the past and moving forward:

Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s Lightsaber

Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.

Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.

The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then.

I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.

Let me know if I missed anything.

Pretty good I think, except you mean Rey and Luke, not kylo and Luke.

I did see your comment about the robes and looked for it when I was next in the theater. But I felt like there was another time that Luke wore those robes. Didn’t he have them on when he was training Rey? Or some other scene in between.

When he goes to burn down the temple.