The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 188

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

Making a mistake is human. Making the same mistake twice is foolish. (Or something like that)

maybe you mean “All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes.” - Winston Churchill

So Luke is a fool then in your eyes?

Yeah, I was talking about that I guess.

In a way yes, Luke is a fool. Or do you think he was very wise disregarding everything that he learned in the throne room and going into poor Ben’s hut and igniting his lightsaber? Yoda also told him that he must gain control over himself.

And Obi-Wan said that the force partially controls your actions, and that your eyes can deceive you. In the trench run yes, he did tell Luke to basically trust his instincts, but he never told Luke to let go of logic, ever.

Speaking of Obi-Wan, he’s a man that learned from his mistakes. Compare PT Obi-Wan and OT Obi-Wan, and you’ll see they’re the same character, only that they grown from their mistakes. Yoda too, but less so than Obi-Wan.

Well, Luke isn’t Yoda or Obi-wan. Luke barely had any training in the OT. I still think he was barely a good Jedi in ROTJ. Barely resisted the goading, etc. Obi-wan was training and existing along-side other Jedi… Anway, i see no reason to expect the same from Luke as from Obi-wan.

I agree, Luke drawing the saber was foolish. Yoda came back and told him that much of what he was doing was foolish.

Again, the real disagreement is that one side of this complaint things Luke is a perfect Jedi, and should behave like a perfect Jedi. The other side of this doesn’t think that at all.

The film seems to portray that Luke was not perfect, so I am happy with it.

You are not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

Making a mistake is human. Making the same mistake twice is foolish. (Or something like that)

maybe you mean “All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes.” - Winston Churchill

So Luke is a fool then in your eyes?

Obviously. He gave the nice pigman #1 a nap, and then did it again with pigman #2.

You can prosecute on behalf of the pig men and I’ll play defense lawyer for Luke. I’m betting Luke will walk if the standard is reasonable doubt. The pig men suffer from congenital conditions including narcolepsy and sleep apnea. Their heavy drinking doesn’t help either.

Luke is suffering sever trauma from vader daddy syndrome and shouldn’t be allowed to wander around in caves with a weapon! he doesn’t even have a damn permit!

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

Making a mistake is human. Making the same mistake twice is foolish. (Or something like that)

maybe you mean “All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes.” - Winston Churchill

So Luke is a fool then in your eyes?

Yeah, I was talking about that I guess.

In a way yes, Luke is a fool. Or do you think he was very wise disregarding everything that he learned in the throne room and going into poor Ben’s hut and igniting his lightsaber? Yoda also told him that he must gain control over himself.

And Obi-Wan said that the force partially controls your actions, and that your eyes can deceive you. In the trench run yes, he did tell Luke to basically trust his instincts, but he never told Luke to let go of logic, ever.

Speaking of Obi-Wan, he’s a man that learned from his mistakes. Compare PT Obi-Wan and OT Obi-Wan, and you’ll see they’re the same character, only that they grown from their mistakes. Yoda too, but less so than Obi-Wan.

Well, Luke isn’t Yoda or Obi-wan. Luke barely had any training in the OT. I still think he was barely a good Jedi in ROTJ. Barely resisted the goading, etc. Obi-wan was training and existing along-side other Jedi… Anway, i see no reason to expect the same from Luke as from Obi-wan.

I agree, Luke drawing the saber was foolish. Yoda came back and told him that much of what he was doing was foolish.

Again, the real disagreement is that one side of this complaint things Luke is a perfect Jedi, and should behave like a perfect Jedi. The other side of this doesn’t think that at all.

The film seems to portray that Luke was not perfect, so I am happy with it.

You are not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don’t think he should behave like a perfect Jedi, but I do think that the mistake he made was pretty stupid considering his past.

ok, you think he should be a better Jedi.

This conversation makes me want to bash my head in.

What took you so long?

TV’s Frink said:

What took you so long?

I finally went to sleep and woke up and realized I was running in circles and no one was following me.

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

What took you so long?

I finally went to sleep and woke up and realized I was running in circles and no one was following me.

I think you, I and Frink might be on the same page on this one.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.

I don’t agree. The idea of a character arc is, that people make a journey, usually learning from their mistakes, such that they don’t make that mistake again. In TESB Luke drew his weapon first when confronted with Vader, itching for a fight. In ROTJ Luke had to be goaded into a fight, and he resisted the Emperor for a long time, despite the real threat and suffering he faced. Luke learned from his experience in TESB, as he learned from his experience in ROTJ to finally become a Jedi. So, after ROTJ Luke should have grown beyond such mistakes in my view. The situation with the possible future of Ben Solo pales in comparison to Luke’s previous real experiences from my point of view, and so he should have been able to control himself. Let’s not forget Luke has had at least two decades to learn from his experiences before his fallout with young Ben, and to grow as a Jedi Master. Yet, TLJ seems to suggest the opposite happened. Luke regressed, and turned out to have become a far worse Jedi than Obi-Wan or Yoda, despite growing beyond their dogma in ROTJ.

When did we see Luke actually learn from his mistakes? We see him make similar mistakes over and over again and we never see him really grow past it. And why should the fall of his nephew not shake him to the core? You are building Luke up as a legend and not seeing the flaws he carried right to the end of ROTJ. When Luke threw down his saber and faced the Emperor he knew that he was likely to die. The Emperor didn’t goad him any further, he just tried to kill him. But there is no big huge change in Luke’s personality so him making a similar mistake due to the horror of seeing how far his nephew had fallen already could be shock enough for him to act on instinct over intelligence for a moment. I don’t know why that is so hard to believe of his character. His arc was to redeem his father, not to be the perfect Jedi.

Mrebo said:

And why should the fall of his nephew not shake him to the core?

It might. But that’s not what happened. On the night in question Luke sensed great evil and ultimately saw a scared boy, not someone who was fallen.

Or both, but let’s just ignore half of what the movie told us!

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

And why should the fall of his nephew not shake him to the core?

It might. But that’s not what happened. On the night in question Luke sensed great evil and ultimately saw a scared boy, not someone who was fallen.

Or both, but let’s just ignore half of what the movie told us!

This.

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

When you say “that’s not what Luke perceives,” that’s not true unless you’re saying the future is certain. And we know it isn’t.

Your argument is that the vision Luke beheld was horrifying. My rhetoric was more tame (antihyperbole!) but I didn’t deny that it was a terrible thing to behold.

What a lot of us have trouble accepting is that Luke accepted what he saw, especially after the fact. “Snoke had already turned his heart,” means what? In large part, our appreciation for Luke is perhaps supposed to make it really meaningful. But there’s so much work being done in that line that many don’t buy.

I still don’t believe that Darth Vader was Luke’s father.

Stay strong!

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

When you say “that’s not what Luke perceives,” that’s not true unless you’re saying the future is certain. And we know it isn’t.

I’m saying Luke doesn’t see a future where Ben might fall because he’s already at that point. What he sees in the future is something far more horrifying than just the simple “Ben might fall.”

Your argument is that the vision Luke beheld was horrifying. My rhetoric was more tame (antihyperbole!) but I didn’t deny that it was a terrible thing to behold.

No, saying what Luke felt was simply bad thoughts is hyperbole. An exaggerated statement doesn’t have to be making something out to be bigger than it is, it can go the inverse too.

What a lot of us have trouble accepting is that Luke accepted what he saw, especially after the fact. “Snoke had already turned his heart,” means what? In large part, our appreciation for Luke is perhaps supposed to make it really meaningful. But there’s so much work being done in that line that many don’t buy.

“Snoke had already turned his heart” means exactly what it sounds like. That’s not a vision of the future in motion, that’s Luke’s perception of Ben’s current situation in that moment. I don’t know how you can disregard that. As for accepting the vision of the future? Did he really accept it as gospel or was it just something that briefly sparked a horribly misguided idea in his mind? The film would suggest the latter.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.

I don’t agree. The idea of a character arc is, that people make a journey, usually learning from their mistakes, such that they don’t make that mistake again. In TESB Luke drew his weapon first when confronted with Vader, itching for a fight. In ROTJ Luke had to be goaded into a fight, and he resisted the Emperor for a long time, despite the real threat and suffering he faced. Luke learned from his experience in TESB, as he learned from his experience in ROTJ to finally become a Jedi. So, after ROTJ Luke should have grown beyond such mistakes in my view. The situation with the possible future of Ben Solo pales in comparison to Luke’s previous real experiences from my point of view, and so he should have been able to control himself. Let’s not forget Luke has had at least two decades to learn from his experiences before his fallout with young Ben, and to grow as a Jedi Master. Yet, TLJ seems to suggest the opposite happened. Luke regressed, and turned out to have become a far worse Jedi than Obi-Wan or Yoda, despite growing beyond their dogma in ROTJ.

When did we see Luke actually learn from his mistakes? We see him make similar mistakes over and over again and we never see him really grow past it. And why should the fall of his nephew not shake him to the core? You are building Luke up as a legend and not seeing the flaws he carried right to the end of ROTJ. When Luke threw down his saber and faced the Emperor he knew that he was likely to die. The Emperor didn’t goad him any further, he just tried to kill him. But there is no big huge change in Luke’s personality so him making a similar mistake due to the horror of seeing how far his nephew had fallen already could be shock enough for him to act on instinct over intelligence for a moment. I don’t know why that is so hard to believe of his character. His arc was to redeem his father, not to be the perfect Jedi.

No one is ever so great they can’t fail. No one is perfect. No philosophy or path is ever perfect either.
The closer you think you are to having it all figured out only makes the inevitable failure harder.
Luke’s previous success only made him more susceptible to disillusionment.