The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 184

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

I’m not entirely sure about the comparison to drunk Santa Claus, but comparing it to a dad you admired a lot (and already knew he was flawed and that’s why you admired him) until you find out he’s a drunk farce who basically says he didn’t learn anything from the past because who cares if the future is always in motion or if he redeemed Vader, he’ll just ignite his laser sword to his own blood because he’s insane now because plot.

oh good, more hyperbole.

I point this out, because i don’t know how to respond to it. I understand why people use hyperbole, it is usually because of pent up frustration. But if i respond to it, it will just turn the thread into a pissing contest. I usually spend quite a bit of time when i do post in this thread (anymore), to try to edit my post several times to remove the hyperbole. but i am sure i miss alot, i am only human after all.

Well yeah, it was a hyperbole. But I went “eh?” So that’s enough for me to at the very least question it.

‘eh’ to santa claus or ‘eh’ to Luke in TLJ?

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

If we are going to be true to the hero’s journey, once a hero’s story is complete, it is left to the next generation for a new hero and their journey. In this case the hero becomes the mentor and as a fallen hero, is disillusioned. I understand why and I found it to be true to the character. I still think you are building more into the Luke of ROTJ than you should, but that is your choice.

TV’s Frink said:

Also I find the comparison of Luke to an old drunk Santa Clause ridiculous, but you already knew that.

Also you don’t have to call him a “fat Santa Claus” since that’s redundant.

Also a third thing I’ve just forgotten.

Probably that Luke isn’t fat (not that it matters).

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

However, like many of us viewers she doesn’t find the legendary last Jedi on Ach-To, but a fat old drunk, who now hates Christmas.

Hyperbole lives on!

I thought you would be the one to snuff it out.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

His arc was to become a Jedi and pass on what he had learned, as the Rebel Alliance restored peace and justice to the galaxy. What RJ did is to have Luke make a 180 degree turn, without providing proper motivation for Luke’s change of heart, and no a sixty second flashback is not character development. Luke turned his back on his ideals and his friends, not even the death of his best friend, or the impending doom of his twin sister could change his mind. Remember this is the same character who for three films risked his life to save his friends. That to me requires a bit more explanation than Luke mind raping young Ben Solo, and seeing some darkness for me to jump on the Rey band wagon.

DominicCobb said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

However, like many of us viewers she doesn’t find the legendary last Jedi on Ach-To, but a fat old drunk, who now hates Christmas.

Hyperbole lives on!

I thought you would be the one to snuff it out.

I can’t remember the next line right now (monday and the coffee ran out already) or i would keep this going. but well done.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

His arc was to become a Jedi and pass on what he had learned, as the Rebel Alliance restored peace and justice to the galaxy. What RJ did is to have Luke make a 180 degree turn, without providing proper motivation for Luke’s change of heart, and no a sixty second flashback is not character development. Luke turned his back on his ideals and his friends, not even the death of his best friend, or the impending doom of his twin sister could change his mind. Remember this is the same character who for three films risked his life to save his friends. That to me requires a bit more explanation than Luke mind raping young Ben Solo, and seeing some darkness for me to jump on the Rey band wagon.

Ok, Dre. you really need to lay off of that closing line hyperbole nonesense.

This is the same character that for three films thought he knew best, and trusted himself over others.

In this film he reached what some of us find to be a believable conclusion, given his character, and a major life crisis in how the Jedi training turned out.

DrDre said:

Luke mind raping young Ben Solo

Have you learned nothing from our previous run-in?

I’ll just report it this time. Have a nice day.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

His arc was to become a Jedi and pass on what he had learned, as the Rebel Alliance restored peace and justice to the galaxy. What RJ did is to have Luke make a 180 degree turn, without providing proper motivation for Luke’s change of heart, and no a sixty second flashback is not character development. Luke turned his back on his ideals and his friends, not even the death of his best friend, or the impending doom of his twin sister could change his mind. Remember this is the same character who for three films risked his life to save his friends. That to me requires a bit more explanation than Luke mind raping young Ben Solo, and seeing some darkness for me to jump on the Rey band wagon.

Ok, Dre. you really need to lay off of that closing line hyperbole nonesense.

This is the same character that for three films thought he knew best, and trusted himself over others.

In this film he reached what some of us find to be a believable conclusion, given his character, and a major life crisis in how the Jedi training turned out.

Why? Hyperboles serve a function to punctuate an argument.

Hyperbole: derived from a Greek word meaning “over-casting,” is a figure of speech that involves an exaggeration of ideas for the sake of emphasis; exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

There’s nothing wrong with using hyperboles in a discussion, and it certainly is not something that anyone should take offense to.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Luke mind raping young Ben Solo

Have you learned nothing from our previous run-in?

I’ll just report it this time. Have a nice day.

Why is everyone so sensitive about using hyperboles?

Don’t worry. I’ve learned my lesson. There’s no point in continuing any discussion, if it just leads to anger, conflicts, and the like. This thread is a toxic place, and I’m tired of being part of the problem.

Have a nice day indeed…

Hyperbole is fine as a rule, but the exception is when you are venting with ‘angry’ hyperbole each time you post. I think it is not good form. but feel free to do it, i can’t stop you.

dahmage said:

Hyperbole is fine as a rule, but the exception is when you are venting with ‘angry’ hyperbole each time you post. I think it is not good form. but feel free to do it, i can’t stop you.

I’m not angry, but I do like a bit of fire in a discussion. It’s not meant to be offensive, but it is obviously taken that way by some, so I will stop. Not a week goes by and I’m in another conflict, so I must be doing something wrong. It’s not much fun for any of us, so time to find a different discussion forum to vent my TLJ opinions. I’ll stick to the technical mumbo jumbo on OT.com.

Thanks everyone for some nice discussions. It’s been interesting reading everyone’s point of view.

Mrebo said:

Collipso said:

You guys are acting as if Dre considered Luke to be some sort of legend in the OT. I share his opinion on several aspects regarding TLJ, and even though I can’t speak for him, I believe you guys are wrong.

Luke in the OT is not a legend, but a hero that you can clearly see that is as flawed as we regular people are, but he still managed to achieve greatness. Not by overthrowing the empire, not by literally being a hero to the rest of the galaxy, but by being a loving son and redeeming his father. He was Vader’s hero, not the alliance or the republic. The hero of his father and of the Jedi.

In A New Hope yes, he’s the big hero, he saved everyone, destroyed the big Death Star, he was the hero of the Rebels. But in the other two movies his victories (or defeats in the case of ESB (and even RotJ)) are so much smaller and yet so much bigger than the one in ANH.

Luke is far from perfect in the OT. Far from legend. At least that’s what I had always thought.

I’m not entirely sure about the comparison to drunk Santa Claus, but comparing it to a dad you admired a lot (and already knew he was flawed and that’s why you admired him) until you find out he’s a drunk farce who basically says he didn’t learn anything from the past because who cares if the future is always in motion or if he redeemed Vader, he’ll just ignite his laser sword to his own blood because he’s insane now because plot.

Right on. Maybe the EU made Luke out to be a legend/myth (and told stories that justified that view) but that wasn’t who he was at the end of ROTJ.

And IMO there’s your problem right there. The Luke of TLJ is 30 years removed from the end of ROTJ but you still want him to be in the exact same place for some reason.

You’re right, he wasn’t a legend at the ROTJ. The Battle of Endor had just ended. Why are you so sure he wouldn’t become a legend as the years passed, especially after he disappeared?

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

Collipso said:

You guys are acting as if Dre considered Luke to be some sort of legend in the OT. I share his opinion on several aspects regarding TLJ, and even though I can’t speak for him, I believe you guys are wrong.

Luke in the OT is not a legend, but a hero that you can clearly see that is as flawed as we regular people are, but he still managed to achieve greatness. Not by overthrowing the empire, not by literally being a hero to the rest of the galaxy, but by being a loving son and redeeming his father. He was Vader’s hero, not the alliance or the republic. The hero of his father and of the Jedi.

In A New Hope yes, he’s the big hero, he saved everyone, destroyed the big Death Star, he was the hero of the Rebels. But in the other two movies his victories (or defeats in the case of ESB (and even RotJ)) are so much smaller and yet so much bigger than the one in ANH.

Luke is far from perfect in the OT. Far from legend. At least that’s what I had always thought.

I’m not entirely sure about the comparison to drunk Santa Claus, but comparing it to a dad you admired a lot (and already knew he was flawed and that’s why you admired him) until you find out he’s a drunk farce who basically says he didn’t learn anything from the past because who cares if the future is always in motion or if he redeemed Vader, he’ll just ignite his laser sword to his own blood because he’s insane now because plot.

Right on. Maybe the EU made Luke out to be a legend/myth (and told stories that justified that view) but that wasn’t who he was at the end of ROTJ.

And IMO there’s your problem right there. The Luke of TLJ is 30 years removed from the end of ROTJ but you still want him to be in the exact same place for some reason.

You’re right, he wasn’t a legend at the ROTJ. The Battle of Endor had just ended. Why are you so sure he wouldn’t become a legend as the years passed, especially after he disappeared?

The problem is that for me there wasn’t enough character development for me to believe he’d change this much. If there’s no character development of course I think he’s going to be in the same place as seen before. Like Dre said, the 60sec flashback was not enough character development to convince me.

Mrebo said:

I also was disappointed with Han’s and Leia’s characterizations in TFA where both were exactly where they were 40 years ago.

They both were broken people…not the same at all.

Other than that I suppose we’re treading the same old ground again so I’ll drop it…again.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

I also was disappointed with Han’s and Leia’s characterizations in TFA where both were exactly where they were 40 years ago.

They both were broken people…not the same at all.

Other than that I suppose we’re treading the same old ground again so I’ll drop it…again.

I’m with you, no point going in the same circle.

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

I also was disappointed with Han’s and Leia’s characterizations in TFA where both were exactly where they were 40 years ago.

They both were broken people…not the same at all.

Other than that I suppose we’re treading the same old ground again so I’ll drop it…again.

I’m with you, no point going in the same circle.

I’m with you too.

the circle is unbroken 😃

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

His arc was to become a Jedi and pass on what he had learned, as the Rebel Alliance restored peace and justice to the galaxy. What RJ did is to have Luke make a 180 degree turn, without providing proper motivation for Luke’s change of heart, and no a sixty second flashback is not character development. Luke turned his back on his ideals and his friends, not even the death of his best friend, or the impending doom of his twin sister could change his mind. Remember this is the same character who for three films risked his life to save his friends. That to me requires a bit more explanation than Luke mind raping young Ben Solo, and seeing some darkness for me to jump on the Rey band wagon.

Really? That’s a pretty serious charge to level at Luke. And I don’t buy it for a second. There’s a world of difference between picking up vibes and entering someone’s mind. Was Yoda a peeping tom for watching Luke remotely as he grew up?

Well Luke stood over Ben in his bedroom as he slept, reading his inner most thoughts and feelings. It was a hyperbole I was using, but it’s a pretty gross and involuntary invasion of privacy either way, particulary the way it was depicted. Yoda also invaded Luke’s privacy, but then again Obi-Wan and Yoda were watching over him to keep him safe, and unlike Luke couldn’t just have a casual chat with the boy, without arrousing suspicion. Luke could have just had a conversation with Ben, but as I said before, the entire relationship between Luke and young Ben Solo before the events in Ben’s room are completely unexplored, a major weakness of the film in my view.

PS. I’m not here by the way. I just wanted to explain my position. From now on I’ll just be a Peeping Tom.