[…] “Muh-Rey Suuuue” […]
I wouldn’t advise using that term, but you didn’t really use it seriously or anything so I think it’s ok. Just don’t use it.
I thought it was pretty clear that I was mocking people who use it, just merely stating I can see their perspective. I’ll keep that in mind, thanks.
It was, and I noted that. Just a friendly advice.
Edit: I agree with your take on Rey in this movie.
with how dumb it was not to let a loose cannon like Poe who openly disobeys orders in on the plan
And what happens when they let him in on the plan and he disagrees with it? He blows it up.
I got no problem with that.
with how dumb it was not to let a loose cannon like Poe who openly disobeys orders in on the plan
And what happens when they let him in on the plan and he disagrees with it? He blows it up.
I got no problem with that.
Like I said, a nit-pick, I could harp on nit-picks all day, as I did with my initial viewing. But in doing so, I ignored everything the film did well. But I don’t care about arguing about a handful of things I like/dislike. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the characterization of Rey.
Luke astro-projects himself to Salt Lake Planet, gets shot at by gorilla walkers, has a non-lightsaber duel with Darth Millennial, then dies of a broken heart, inspiring broom boys throughout the galaxy to get creative with their sweeping. - DuracellEnergizer
with how dumb it was not to let a loose cannon like Poe who openly disobeys orders in on the plan
And what happens when they let him in on the plan and he disagrees with it? He blows it up.
I got no problem with that.
This. This is the thing right here that agrees with the thing I say.
I just honestly don’t get why anybody would think Poe had any business being “in” on the plan. He certainly had no reason to expect so in the beginning, and by the end, he had absolutely proven why he shouldn’t have been.
If anything, I only feel it doesn’t work in that Poe fails just a bit too hard to be believable. His insubordinate actions indirectly cause most of the Resistance to be killed, and yet Leia and Holdo give him the equivalent of an “Oh, you rambunctious little scamp, you” reaction. By all accounts, he really should be through after such a devastatingly huge cock-up, not groomed to be a leader. I mean, I guess at this point they have little choice, but that’s hardly reassuring.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
Poe finding out the plan was how DJ ended up finding out and betraying them, leading to many deaths.
with how dumb it was not to let a loose cannon like Poe who openly disobeys orders in on the plan
And what happens when they let him in on the plan and he disagrees with it? He blows it up.
I got no problem with that.
Like I said, a nit-pick
But that’s not what it is. A nit-pick is a minor complaint that makes sense. Your Poe complaint doesn’t make sense.
After Poe is told the plan he shows how he’s totally ok with it. He goes along and thinks it’s a good plan. So you could argue that Holdo was the one that killed many rebels by not telling anything to Poe which made him take action, thinking she was leading everyone to their deaths. Only it backfired and a lot of people died.
Poe needed a dose of humility and to learn his place. He did, but only after multiple epic failures that cost lives.
After Poe is told the plan he shows how he’s totally ok with it. He goes along and thinks it’s a good plan. So you could argue that Holdo was the one that killed many rebels by not telling anything to Poe which made him take action, thinking she was leading everyone to their deaths. Only it backfired and a lot of people died.
“After” being the key word. Hindsight (especially as a movie viewer) is great but they don’t know he’ll go along with it until he actually does.
with how dumb it was not to let a loose cannon like Poe who openly disobeys orders in on the plan
And what happens when they let him in on the plan and he disagrees with it? He blows it up.
I got no problem with that.
Like I said, a nit-pick
But that’s not what it is. A nit-pick is a minor complaint that makes sense. Your Poe complaint doesn’t make sense.
Okay? I don’t see what the point is in being hung up on my minor points that I dismissed immediately in my original post. The larger point of my post was that I fundamentally disagree with Rey’s characterization in this film, because it feels like her arc isn’t earned.
Luke astro-projects himself to Salt Lake Planet, gets shot at by gorilla walkers, has a non-lightsaber duel with Darth Millennial, then dies of a broken heart, inspiring broom boys throughout the galaxy to get creative with their sweeping. - DuracellEnergizer
Well I disagree with that too but it’s been covered to death, both when TFA came out and in this thread, so I didn’t see any point in talking about it.
“A question for Rian Johnson. In Episode 8 The Last Jedi, Yoda’s force ghost makes lightning strike from a storm cloud. I mean, what are we to believe, that this is some sort of MAGIC force ghost? Boy, I really hope someone got fired for that…”
ALLOL
<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>
I’m still struggling with my antipathy for the Last Jedi. I enjoyed it on the surface. I enjoyed it’s set pieces. I enjoyed some of the twists. Yet, I can’t shake my deeper sense, that TLJ has severely undermined the mythology, by deconstructing Star Wars.
Then I read this article:
“Deconstructing Star Wars and 'The Last Jedi: Understanding how the new movie went off the rails.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020
I think this article describes many of my own feelings with regards to TLJ. In order to understand the film, I asked myself three simple questions: what? how? and why?
What does TLJ do exactly in my view? My answer is, that it attempts to deconstruct Star Wars, it’s myth, and legends, and replace it with a postmodernist point of view. The film to an extend recognizes myth and legend have a function, but at the same time makes it clear that they are not real. This view point is examplified in the final minutes of the film, where Luke faces off against the FO alone. The event is presented as a source of inspiration to the galaxy, and children in particular, but ultimately it’s all an illusion. The Star Wars mythology has become self-aware. In doing so Star Wars stops being a modern myth.
How does it do this? It does this by recycling many of the OT story threads, and set pieces, and placing them in a postmodern context. In broad strokes it tells the same story as TESB with some ROTJ thrown in the mix. As a Star Wars film it’s highly self-referential, characteristic of ‘postmodern’ writing. It’s the OT, but without what it considers to be mythological constraints. It replaces the heroes journey with anybody can be a hero. While on the surface this idea might seem appealing, it’s the implementation of this idea, that’s problematic in my view. Rey doesn’t choose to become a hero. The responsibility is thrust upon her by the Force. Darkness rises and light to meet it, says Snoke. Rey’s character doesn’t need to learn, progress, and struggle with temptation, because she apparently is the chosen representative of the light side of the Force.
Why does it do this? Here’s where the real crux is in my view. It does this without real purpose, meaning it doesn’t do this to tell an original story. TLJ sets the Star Wars universe back three decades. Luke’s act of defiance at the end of the film, while more symbolic, mirrors his heroic act at the end of ANH. The destruction of the first Death Star lit the fire that would destroy the Empire. Another Empire has to be beaten by a struggling rebellion, and another fallen Jedi apprentice has be be conquered by a new hope. We’re narratively right back to square one, which seems completely at odds with the idea, that TLJ puts the franchise in a new direction.
Wow, this is a great article. It makes me angry and sad all over again for what has transpired in TLJ but it is also great being able to read something that so soundly articulates many of the things I find wrong with the movie. Your comments above are also very much on point and a great way to analyse such matters. Nearly every time you post in here about TLJ I am amazed at how well your view on matters lines up with my own.
I think the post-modern view itself is very relevant to TLJ and the below video does a great job on explaining why. I watched it a few weeks back and was amazed at how much sense this bloke makes and helped me also realise why I really don’t like the new ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ show. Not a Trekkie myself but I do love the original movies (really don’t like the new JJ ones though, the first one was barely acceptable and the rest are garbage) and am quite enjoying my first watch through of The Next Generation:
Edit: I’ve been asked to remove the link as apparently it crosses a line that Jay laid down earlier in the thread on political discussions. PM me if you would like to see the video.
Val
Dre, oh dear. What an awful ad filled bit of clickbait crap!
“Understanding how the new movie went off the rails” Really?!
And then the guy spends the whole article comparing it to Tolkien.
If you really want an insightful deconstruction then listen to the Empire podcast, with Rian Johnson getting much deeper into the decisions, the story and the characters.
If you can get past the initial popup and ignore the few adds as you scroll down (pretty much the majority of sites these days), it is a quality article and articulates very well an opinion and point of view that obviously Dre, myself and others hold on the matters. If you don’t agree with it, fine. That’s got no say on the quality of the piece though.
In regards to listening to RJ try to justify his decisions (as that’s what he’s doing otherwise he wouldn’t feel the need to explain), no thanks. I’ve read enough of his quoted comments in some articles to know that whatever he says on the matters is never going to justify for me the decisions he took with this movie. Many of the comments sound like straight up bullshit anyway, so I’m already not interested in anything else he has to say as I don’t feel I can trust what is coming out of his mouth.
[DrDre said:](It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.
Okay, back to your usual ‘passive aggressive’ self.
If anyone is being aggressive here (and definitely not passively) it is yourself. His comment is true - the article articulates very well the author’s issues with TLJ and the ST in general. It is also respectful in it’s tone. Both of these things are lacking in your initial reply that calls into question Dre’s own quality of posting and by insulting an article that Dre supports the view of, you indirectly insult Dre.
Val
Mrebo said:
A pretty good critical look at Luke’s characterization from someone who really enjoyed the movie. Some good comparisons to the movie “Logan.”
DrDre said:
Yeah, that sums my feelings up very well.
+1
A very well thought out analysis on where they went wrong with Luke’s character.
I’m still struggling with my antipathy for the Last Jedi. I enjoyed it on the surface. I enjoyed it’s set pieces. I enjoyed some of the twists. Yet, I can’t shake my deeper sense, that TLJ has severely undermined the mythology, by deconstructing Star Wars.
Then I read this article:
“Deconstructing Star Wars and 'The Last Jedi: Understanding how the new movie went off the rails.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020
I think this article describes many of my own feelings with regards to TLJ. In order to understand the film, I asked myself three simple questions: what? how? and why?
What does TLJ do exactly in my view? My answer is, that it attempts to deconstruct Star Wars, it’s myth, and legends, and replace it with a postmodernist point of view. The film to an extend recognizes myth and legend have a function, but at the same time makes it clear that they are not real. This view point is examplified in the final minutes of the film, where Luke faces off against the FO alone. The event is presented as a source of inspiration to the galaxy, and children in particular, but ultimately it’s all an illusion. The Star Wars mythology has become self-aware. In doing so Star Wars stops being a modern myth.
How does it do this? It does this by recycling many of the OT story threads, and set pieces, and placing them in a postmodern context. In broad strokes it tells the same story as TESB with some ROTJ thrown in the mix. As a Star Wars film it’s highly self-referential, characteristic of ‘postmodern’ writing. It’s the OT, but without what it considers to be mythological constraints. It replaces the heroes journey with anybody can be a hero. While on the surface this idea might seem appealing, it’s the implementation of this idea, that’s problematic in my view. Rey doesn’t choose to become a hero. The responsibility is thrust upon her by the Force. Darkness rises and light to meet it, says Snoke. Rey’s character doesn’t need to learn, progress, and struggle with temptation, because she apparently is the chosen representative of the light side of the Force.
Why does it do this? Here’s where the real crux is in my view. It does this without real purpose, meaning it doesn’t do this to tell an original story. TLJ sets the Star Wars universe back three decades. Luke’s act of defiance at the end of the film, while more symbolic, mirrors his heroic act at the end of ANH. The destruction of the first Death Star lit the fire that would destroy the Empire. Another Empire has to be beaten by a struggling rebellion, and another fallen Jedi apprentice has be be conquered by a new hope. We’re narratively right back to square one, which seems completely at odds with the idea, that TLJ puts the franchise in a new direction.
Wow, this is a great article. It makes me angry and sad all over again for what has transpired in TLJ but it is also great being able to read something that so soundly articulates many of the things I find wrong with the movie. Your comments above are also very much on point and a great way to analyse such matters. Nearly every time you post in here about TLJ I am amazed at how well your view on matters lines up with my own.
I think the post-modern view itself is very relevant to TLJ and the below video does a great job on explaining why. I watched it a few weeks back and was amazed at how much sense this bloke makes and helped me also realise why I really don’t like the new ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ show. Not a Trekkie myself but I do love the original movies (really don’t like the new JJ ones though, the first one was barely acceptable and the rest are garbage) and am quite enjoying my first watch through of The Next Generation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZKlUa7MzQ&t - note: if hearing the term “Mary-Sue” triggers you, maybe give this video a miss 😉
Val
cough Trekker cough 😛
Where were you in '77?
I’m still struggling with my antipathy for the Last Jedi. I enjoyed it on the surface. I enjoyed it’s set pieces. I enjoyed some of the twists. Yet, I can’t shake my deeper sense, that TLJ has severely undermined the mythology, by deconstructing Star Wars.
Then I read this article:
“Deconstructing Star Wars and 'The Last Jedi: Understanding how the new movie went off the rails.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020
I think this article describes many of my own feelings with regards to TLJ. In order to understand the film, I asked myself three simple questions: what? how? and why?
What does TLJ do exactly in my view? My answer is, that it attempts to deconstruct Star Wars, it’s myth, and legends, and replace it with a postmodernist point of view. The film to an extend recognizes myth and legend have a function, but at the same time makes it clear that they are not real. This view point is examplified in the final minutes of the film, where Luke faces off against the FO alone. The event is presented as a source of inspiration to the galaxy, and children in particular, but ultimately it’s all an illusion. The Star Wars mythology has become self-aware. In doing so Star Wars stops being a modern myth.
How does it do this? It does this by recycling many of the OT story threads, and set pieces, and placing them in a postmodern context. In broad strokes it tells the same story as TESB with some ROTJ thrown in the mix. As a Star Wars film it’s highly self-referential, characteristic of ‘postmodern’ writing. It’s the OT, but without what it considers to be mythological constraints. It replaces the heroes journey with anybody can be a hero. While on the surface this idea might seem appealing, it’s the implementation of this idea, that’s problematic in my view. Rey doesn’t choose to become a hero. The responsibility is thrust upon her by the Force. Darkness rises and light to meet it, says Snoke. Rey’s character doesn’t need to learn, progress, and struggle with temptation, because she apparently is the chosen representative of the light side of the Force.
Why does it do this? Here’s where the real crux is in my view. It does this without real purpose, meaning it doesn’t do this to tell an original story. TLJ sets the Star Wars universe back three decades. Luke’s act of defiance at the end of the film, while more symbolic, mirrors his heroic act at the end of ANH. The destruction of the first Death Star lit the fire that would destroy the Empire. Another Empire has to be beaten by a struggling rebellion, and another fallen Jedi apprentice has be be conquered by a new hope. We’re narratively right back to square one, which seems completely at odds with the idea, that TLJ puts the franchise in a new direction.
Wow, this is a great article. It makes me angry and sad all over again for what has transpired in TLJ but it is also great being able to read something that so soundly articulates many of the things I find wrong with the movie. Your comments above are also very much on point and a great way to analyse such matters. Nearly every time you post in here about TLJ I am amazed at how well your view on matters lines up with my own.
I think the post-modern view itself is very relevant to TLJ and the below video does a great job on explaining why. I watched it a few weeks back and was amazed at how much sense this bloke makes and helped me also realise why I really don’t like the new ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ show. Not a Trekkie myself but I do love the original movies (really don’t like the new JJ ones though, the first one was barely acceptable and the rest are garbage) and am quite enjoying my first watch through of The Next Generation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZKlUa7MzQ&t - note: if hearing the term “Mary-Sue” triggers you, maybe give this video a miss 😉
Val
cough Trekker cough 😛
LOL, never understood the whole SW vs STrek thing. You either like something or you don’t, no need to crap on the other fan base just because you don’t identify with them. Funny thing is, I’m very much more SW oriented than STrek but as said, love my original STrek movies and it just so happens that my boss is a big and long time Trekkie and most of my colleagues watch it as well. I’m the odd one out though in that I don’t like STD (Star Trek Discovery) and think it’s lost what made STrek good in it’s own way, almost doing to opposite. The Orville on the other hand while starting out as a parody / humorous take on STrek, is actually much faithful to STrek than the new official series is (or so I’ve heard).
Val
I’m old enough to recall when Trekkie fell out of favor as the preferred term. (Some media began using it in a mocking fashion by the end of the '70’s.) Amazing nobody ever coined a one word phrase for SW fans.
Where were you in '77?
I’m old enough to recall when Trekkie fell out of favor as the preferred term. (Some media began using it in a mocking fashion by the end of the '70’s.) Amazing nobody ever coined a one word phrase for SW fans.
I believe that word is “humans.”
I’m old enough to recall when Trekkie fell out of favor as the preferred term. (Some media began using it in a mocking fashion by the end of the '70’s.) Amazing nobody ever coined a one word phrase for SW fans.
I believe that word is “humans.”
All fine and good, unless you’re a Wookiee! 😛
Where were you in '77?
I can’t help thinking that RJ followed the characters natural arc from where Abrams left them in TFA and did a superb job of putting them through second act tortures. It seems that what people aren’t liking is the setup that Abrams saddled the ST with rather than what RJ did with it. The jounts and acrs are just the continuation of their TFA journies. I found TFA to be very flawed and as I anslize the complains I keep finding the root cause lies in the last movie. Luke was left in exile with little explanation. We get an explanation that fits with the little TFA provided. Rey’s jouney is also a continuation. Nothing comes any easier in this film than the last but this time we dig into her parents issues. Poe, originally fated to die, now is groomed to be the new leader. Finn finally learns to adopt a cause snd stop running. And this part of the story is all about failure and how to grow past it. Nearly every character is faced with failure. They all grow from it. We can quibble about liking how each arc played out, but the arcs are there are they tie directly to the last film.
Eh I still fail to see Rey’s struggles and challenges. She didn’t even feel like the protagonist in this one. I guess it was Kylo. He’s literally the only character that got interesting and deep character arcs in both movies so far. Imo, of course.
I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.
But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.
All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.
I hope I have been clear, I will also leave some very good videos that I found about Star Wars as a whole. The first (in two parts) talks about the myth of the saga, the interesting thing is that the person in the video had not watched TLJ yet and his predictions turned out to be quite accurate. The second is another social analysis of the character Anakin and the Jedi order, worth seeing.
Damn. I accidentally clicked the Post button, instead of the next page button.
I wonder what JJ Abrams is going to do for the 3rd movie. I hope we see more of R2D2 & Chewbacca.
Apparently JJ has said he wants to bring all three trilogies together. I hope that’s true, because even if X does come out I’m going to deny its existence and IX will be my last episode. Plus, I hope to see more prequels since we haven’t gotten more than a few references in a line or two in each movie so far
Hmm, that sounds interesting. Well, only time will tell.
I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.
But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.
All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.
You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.
