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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 181

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

Um… that is one front of one war. It took 4 months for the US to mount the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo. The battle of Midway was 7 months to the day from Pearl Harbor. By the time D-day happened half the battles in the Pacific had been fought. And you are talking about a major invasion of occupied territory. That is not the case as we leave the story in TLJ. The Republic had a fleet, but unless they were absolutely crazy, so did many of the worlds of the Republic. Where is the Mon Calamari fleet? And there are bound to be others. And if you think they aren’t out there, then why did Leia send that message? When you consider all the pieces given to us in TLJ, the First Order invasion is not going to be met without a fight. And an invasion force is only good until it is spread too thin.

Also, the other theaters of WWII were North Africa, Mediterranean, and the Eastern Front, all of which saw major activity prior to D-day. Also, the war was going for 2 years with plenty of activity on all fronts before Pearl Harbor. So your analogy is way way off.

Actually it is not, as many of the allied countries that mounted those attacks you mention were not invaded. As I stated these were sovereign nations with full military capabilities. As TLJ states, the FO will control all the major systems in weeks. You continue to ignore what is stated jn the film. This clearly implies these systems do not have the military capabilities to stop them. So, a rebellion would have to be mounted from occupied territory. As such the comparisson to the battle of Midway is way off.

Also in TLJ is the answer to your question. The arms dealers on Canto Bight will sell to anyone. That is what took 3 years to mount the invasion of Europe (that and the US was fully engaged in the pacific front). The US had to build up to a full war footing from the post WWI limits. But the US started bombing raids within months. They escalated constantly until they even dropped the camouflage paint schemes. So the implication that the First Order can fully occupy the entire galaxy is an overreach. Again, it is Rey who says weeks and she doesn’t give specifics. We don’t know what she was told or by whom. Now if Leia had said that it would be concrete, but coming from Rey, it is not a statement I take at face value. Some major systems that aren’t likely to put up a fight are the likely first targets. But as of this movie, nothing has been captured by the First Order as yet. So the First Order, in WWII terms, has taken out the Maginot Line, but hasn’t conquered France yet. It is May 10, 1940 and we have until June 4 before the cause is lost. If the Americans had joined before Pearl Harbor, maybe the invasion could have been halted. That is where TLJ leaves us if you want to put it in WWII terms. Will Luke’s stand bring the allies to stop the First Order? There is still time. Otherwise you are right, it will be 4 years later, on June 6, 1944, that the battle to retake the French Republic begins. I think there is still a chance to stop the First Order. But also to put it in WWII terms, we lost France early, but we never lost Great Britain or Russia who put up a fight the entire time. So if they parallel WWII as you suggest, then the First Order only stands to take over a relatively small section of the fallen New Republic while the rest puts up a fight. The rest being the allies that Leia was hoping to hear from. Given that RJ was watching WWII movies, I wouldn’t be surprised if IX pics up days or weeks after TLJ or skips forward a few years. Depends on the level of conflict they want to dish out to the galaxy.

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And you bring up a good parallel. TLJ is the Star Wars equivalent of Dunkirk. Except instead of a fleet taking the remnants of the army it is a single ship escaping with the survivors. So it makes sense that nothing is working out and everything they do fails. It fits with the narrative. So far from ignoring or trying to destroy the past, they are following GL’s example and using real world inspiration to tell a multi-part story. WWII has given the Star Wars saga a lot to work with.

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But I think a fairer comparison would be the US to the Empire, and not to the rebels.

I don’t think WWII is a good comparison - since the galaxy literally resented to a pre-ANH state, it’s simply US vs Vietnam all over again. But the impression I got from TFA and TLJ is that we have again the Empire with limitless resources and Vietnam, now instead of having a fleet, having a 50 year old ship.

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Collipso said:

But I think a fairer comparison would be the US to the Empire, and not to the rebels.

I don’t think WWII is a good comparison - since the galaxy literally resented to a pre-ANH state, it’s simply US vs Vietnam all over again. But the impression I got from TFA and TLJ is that we have again the Empire with limitless resources and Vietnam, now instead of having a fleet, having a 50 year old ship.

But it hasn’t reverted to a pre ANH state. The First Order is just starting it’s campaign of conquest. They haven’t take over anything yet, except maybe the major hyperspace routes. Pre ANH, the Empire was at the height of its power. The Empire is Nazi Germany, even down to the helmets, stormtroopers, and how the Chancellor rose to power. Where we are at in the ST in terms of real world WWII, would be if the Nazis had risen again in Argentina and set out to conquer Europe all over again. They are at a severe disadvantage and it won’t be easy to do. They will meet with resistance in some corners. So it makes sense to compare it to the conquest of France. The First Order rose out on the Rim so they are far from their home systems and support.

I really don’t know why you guys are taking the First Order conquest of the galaxy as a done deal. There is plenty that says it isn’t. The word reigns really got you, didn’t it. I think it was hyperbole for effect. The rest of the crawl and the movie dialog all say it hasn’t happened yet, though it is in process. If it hasn’t happened it can still be stopped. And even if they take some of the easier systems, that leaves the harder ones that Leia and the resistance can coordinate into an effective opposition.

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 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

But I think a fairer comparison would be the US to the Empire, and not to the rebels.

I don’t think WWII is a good comparison - since the galaxy literally resented to a pre-ANH state, it’s simply US vs Vietnam all over again. But the impression I got from TFA and TLJ is that we have again the Empire with limitless resources and Vietnam, now instead of having a fleet, having a 50 year old ship.

But it hasn’t reverted to a pre ANH state. The First Order is just starting it’s campaign of conquest. They haven’t take over anything yet, except maybe the major hyperspace routes. Pre ANH, the Empire was at the height of its power. The Empire is Nazi Germany, even down to the helmets, stormtroopers, and how the Chancellor rose to power. Where we are at in the ST in terms of real world WWII, would be if the Nazis had risen again in Argentina and set out to conquer Europe all over again. They are at a severe disadvantage and it won’t be easy to do. They will meet with resistance in some corners. So it makes sense to compare it to the conquest of France. The First Order rose out on the Rim so they are far from their home systems and support.

I really don’t know why you guys are taking the First Order conquest of the galaxy as a done deal. There is plenty that says it isn’t. The word reigns really got you, didn’t it. I think it was hyperbole for effect. The rest of the crawl and the movie dialog all say it hasn’t happened yet, though it is in process. If it hasn’t happened it can still be stopped. And even if they take some of the easier systems, that leaves the harder ones that Leia and the resistance can coordinate into an effective opposition.

What Resistance are they going to face? Those non existent allies that didn’t show up, even though they knew that it was Leia’s last stand? I believe that if we had other major players in this chess game for the galaxy, the movie would’ve shown them, instead of telling us they’re literally not answering to a desperate SOS.

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Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

But I think a fairer comparison would be the US to the Empire, and not to the rebels.

I don’t think WWII is a good comparison - since the galaxy literally resented to a pre-ANH state, it’s simply US vs Vietnam all over again. But the impression I got from TFA and TLJ is that we have again the Empire with limitless resources and Vietnam, now instead of having a fleet, having a 50 year old ship.

But it hasn’t reverted to a pre ANH state. The First Order is just starting it’s campaign of conquest. They haven’t take over anything yet, except maybe the major hyperspace routes. Pre ANH, the Empire was at the height of its power. The Empire is Nazi Germany, even down to the helmets, stormtroopers, and how the Chancellor rose to power. Where we are at in the ST in terms of real world WWII, would be if the Nazis had risen again in Argentina and set out to conquer Europe all over again. They are at a severe disadvantage and it won’t be easy to do. They will meet with resistance in some corners. So it makes sense to compare it to the conquest of France. The First Order rose out on the Rim so they are far from their home systems and support.

I really don’t know why you guys are taking the First Order conquest of the galaxy as a done deal. There is plenty that says it isn’t. The word reigns really got you, didn’t it. I think it was hyperbole for effect. The rest of the crawl and the movie dialog all say it hasn’t happened yet, though it is in process. If it hasn’t happened it can still be stopped. And even if they take some of the easier systems, that leaves the harder ones that Leia and the resistance can coordinate into an effective opposition.

What Resistance are they going to face? Those non existent allies that didn’t show up, even though they knew that it was Leia’s last stand? I believe that if we had other major players in this chess game for the galaxy, the movie would’ve shown them, instead of telling us they’re literally not answering to a desperate SOS.

They aren’t answering because the First Order is invading. It’s right there in the movie. Would you answer her distress call and risk your planet to save a tiny band of stragglers? I think not.

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Here’s what Rian Johnson has to say about “Mary Poppins Leia”:

https://twitter.com/achisling/status/954449036769218561

Rian, it was just very odd. She should be able to use the force, but my perception would’ve been that it would’ve been in a very limited capacity due to her focus on politics and not training with the force. That wasn’t some simple force jump she did.

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/954449841957957632

Interesting. I guess the fact that she’s in zero G and that space offers no resistance meant (to me) that it wasn’t a big feat at all - kinda minimal, in fact.

https://twitter.com/achisling/status/954450600674123776

Thanks for your response. I thought about that, but then I also thought about the what kind of physical torment that being in the cold vacuum of space would do when you’re trying to channel the force? How could she focus to do that much with little to no training?

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/954450836964306944

Cause she’s a badass muthafucka.

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yhwx said:

Here’s what Rian Johnson has to say about “Mary Poppins Leia”:

https://twitter.com/achisling/status/954449036769218561

Rian, it was just very odd. She should be able to use the force, but my perception would’ve been that it would’ve been in a very limited capacity due to her focus on politics and not training with the force. That wasn’t some simple force jump she did.

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/954449841957957632

Interesting. I guess the fact that she’s in zero G and that space offers no resistance meant (to me) that it wasn’t a big feat at all - kinda minimal, in fact.

https://twitter.com/achisling/status/954450600674123776

Thanks for your response. I thought about that, but then I also thought about the what kind of physical torment that being in the cold vacuum of space would do when you’re trying to channel the force? How could she focus to do that much with little to no training?

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/954450836964306944

Cause she’s a badass muthafucka.

Actually really surprised that the director of Star Wars episode 8 is having these kinds of discussions.

And I love it.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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Cause she’s a badass muthafucka.

But I’m talking about space-Leia.

Then I can dig it.

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The more listen to TLJ reviews that aren’t 15-minutes rants about how “they ruined muh Luke” and “Holdo’s plan and Canto Bight ruined the entire movie”, I’ve realized that this movie’s flaws aren’t as big as they were originally hyped to be. I appreciate this entire film, and all that it contains, even the Canto Bight sequence.

Same with Frink, I won’t be watching TLJ edits any time soon, even once I own the movies and the DVDs have come out. Every time I watch a fan edit I no longer appreciate a film in its original form, so I’m not even going to watch any edit of this film. Would a very light fan edit drastically improve the movie? Yes, totally, but I like this movie too much to let it be ruined for me

No offense, kid, but I don’t think you know how to boil water.

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Mrebo said:

A pretty good critical look at Luke’s characterization from someone who really enjoyed the movie. Some good comparisons to the movie “Logan.”

I watched about 20 second of it, and I need to know where he got that HD footage of Luke on Crait

No offense, kid, but I don’t think you know how to boil water.

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Even though I was 13 when the series ended, I only bought two issues during the original run. I loved them, and probably read them each 50 times. I’ve picked up a few used issues here and there since. I’ve got the first two volumes of the new omnibus reprints. They are OK. The coloring is bad in the reprints. The art in the originals looks so much better, but it’s a lot cheaper than buying the back issues. I should have bought more as a kid when they we a quarter.

Edit: Oops, wrong thread as noted below.

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I believe it was meant for the marvel SW thread.

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I just got back from my second viewing of The Last Jedi. I loved it and hatted it even more with my second viewing.

disclamer
I REFUSED to see anything about the movie before my first viewing Sunday night of opening weekend, not a single youtube video speculating, not a single review, not even anything beyond the first trailer. I wanted to go into it completely open minded and was genuinely disappointed by no preconceived expectations.

I did not take issue with the film because I “hate wamen”, I did not dislike the movie because my favorite youtube cringe-lord fan theorist was wrong. I loved TFA and I will admit, I see where the crowd that shouts “Muh-Rey Suuuue” are coming from, but I felt that she was actually a good character. When Luke in SW77 was presented with his call to adventure, at first he rejected it because he cared about helping his family. When his family was killed he accepted the call and went with Ben. Rey on the other hand, rejected her call to adventure almost throughout the entirety of the film, even when multiple people told her that her parents were never coming back and she really doesn’t fully accept it. To me, that was the most compelling aspect to her character and her charismatic performance just sold it to me on repeat viewings. I LOVED TFA, and I felt Rey’s character was a clever inverse of Luke.

I stick by my critique of the Casino planet pacing issue, with how dumb it was not to let a loose cannon like Poe who openly disobeys orders in on the plan, how every tense and dramatic scene was undercut by a joke that made me groan and cringe (a la Guardians of the Galaxy), how inconsistent the tone was, how strange the pacing was at times beyond the casino planet, the weird social commentary etc. These are all nitpicks, that have varying degrees of impact on the movie. Some large, some small.

What I found the most disappointing was Rey. I loved seeing her flirting with her darker temptations and her training as well as the Heroes come from nowhere angle (until it had the subtlety of a ballistic missile in the ending shot of the film). I really would have liked to see Rey grow more as a person. Earlier, when I thought her character was a clever inverse of Luke, I thought that after training with Luke she would have accepted her parents would never come back and been a better person. Or that she would have had a moment of weakness like Luke when he was training and rushed to face Kylo, which she does. But by the end of the movie, it feels like she learned nothing. It feels like she was overtly told that Heroes come from nowhere and by extension the audience. It doesn’t feel like she GROWS.

There are a lot of things I liked and a lot of things I disliked, but that’s the one thing that’s been on my nerves since I saw the movie a second time. If you’ve made it this far, God bless if you believe in that sort of thing.

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TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

SilverWook said:

So you’d torch the sacred texts without hesitation?

That’s the whole point of the scene. The books don’t matter, “Time to look past a pile of old books” Yoda says. He reminds Luke that the inert desire for every person to do good and use their powers to save others and to learn from failure is all that truly matters. Not the old dogmatic teachings of the jedi. And that is precisely the first thing I’ll be cutting out of the film is the books at the end on the falcon.

And no offense, but this is one of the reasons I probably won’t be watching any TLJ edits. Everyone wants to cut out things I thought were great.

Alongside that, I think the idea of having Luke burn down the tree is terrible.

I guess we can agree to strongly disagree here 😃

I really feel like that was the point of the scene. I do agree with you technically on one thing and that’s that Luke definitely should have not burned the tree in that moment. Mainly because it would be out of anger and him simply feeling that this will help him “kill the past”. Yoda does burn the tree, but it’s not because he wants to kill the past. He knows what actually matters and wants Luke to look past just a pile of old books and instead look to learn from his past and to cherish his failures and how they have helped him. This is a contrast to Kylo killing the past. And that is ultimately why I feel the books at the end on the Falcon are just another pointless cheap fake out that aren’t worth putting in the film.

But I have discussed this before and definitely see where your coming from! I just interpreted the same content a bit differently I suppose.

The great thing about fanedits is that we can all choose our own interpretations and ignore all the others. 😉

FANFICTION

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J0E said:

[…] “Muh-Rey Suuuue” […]

I wouldn’t advise using that term, but you didn’t really use it seriously or anything so I think it’s ok. Just don’t use it.

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Collipso said:

J0E said:

[…] “Muh-Rey Suuuue” […]

I wouldn’t advise using that term, but you didn’t really use it seriously or anything so I think it’s ok. Just don’t use it.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was mocking people who use it, just merely stating I can see their perspective. I’ll keep that in mind, thanks.