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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 140

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 (Edited)

Why does Rey have a memory of crying watching a ship leave Jakku when she was little? Either the next film ignores this completely or there’s more to tell about her family.

Clinging to the hope someone is coming back to get you after so many years is desperation. Clinging to that hope when you know for certain that someone is actually dead is delusional. I don’t think Rey was delusional.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.

WYSHS

True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.

Making Rey’s parents an issue was a creative choice in the film. Rey’s pining for her parents was the chip on which the story salsa was conveyed, but she is not independent from the film. TLJ made a point not only that her parents didn’t care about her (which was sort of obvious) but that they were nobody. And why would we have thought they were somebody? Because the film set up that intrigue - deliberately exploiting expectations of people on the internet, to be sure. A film attempting to stand apart from the OT shouldn’t do that.

This point for me is more what Luke would call a “a cheap trick” but it’s there. Can’t pretend it’s solely the fault of fans or that dastardly rogue Rey.

No. No one in TFA asks who Rey’s parents are, not even her. In fact, there’s no reason to believe in TFA that she doesn’t know who they are. They are mentioned a few times, but the question mark is all audience. They are only important for Rey’s character. And in that regard, they are important, sure. Rey is waiting for them. This aspect informs her arc in both films. But there is nothing in TFA that suggests that her parents must be, themselves important, beyond their relationship to Rey. Nothing at all.

If you thought they might be somebody, it’s only because Rey thought so too and hoped so. Which makes her learning that they’re nobody devastating in the same way that Luke learning that his father didn’t die and is no longer a Jedi did in ESB. And that’s a good thing.

I didn’t think that Rey thought her parents were somebody important. You take a mystery surrounding them (who were they? why did they leave?) combined with her enormous power, and of course the audience is going to dwell on that question. As noted in my edit, I was hoping that her parents weren’t important. The movie was winking at us to say that maybe they are.

There are unexplained things which leaves the audience to question. Sure, that’s fine. But there’s nothing in TFA to suggest her powers and her parentage are related.

Thing is though, TLJ does answer these questions:

Q) Who are Rey’s parents?
A) Nobody

Q) Are Rey’s parents the reason why she has the force?
A) No, she doesn’t need special parents to have the force

Q) Why is she strong in the force?
A) Because that’s the way the force works

The last two seem to directly contradict what is implied in the OT — you hear things like “the Force runs strong in your family,” suggesting that it’s a genetic/familial thing.

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yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.

WYSHS

True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.

Making Rey’s parents an issue was a creative choice in the film. Rey’s pining for her parents was the chip on which the story salsa was conveyed, but she is not independent from the film. TLJ made a point not only that her parents didn’t care about her (which was sort of obvious) but that they were nobody. And why would we have thought they were somebody? Because the film set up that intrigue - deliberately exploiting expectations of people on the internet, to be sure. A film attempting to stand apart from the OT shouldn’t do that.

This point for me is more what Luke would call a “a cheap trick” but it’s there. Can’t pretend it’s solely the fault of fans or that dastardly rogue Rey.

No. No one in TFA asks who Rey’s parents are, not even her. In fact, there’s no reason to believe in TFA that she doesn’t know who they are. They are mentioned a few times, but the question mark is all audience. They are only important for Rey’s character. And in that regard, they are important, sure. Rey is waiting for them. This aspect informs her arc in both films. But there is nothing in TFA that suggests that her parents must be, themselves important, beyond their relationship to Rey. Nothing at all.

If you thought they might be somebody, it’s only because Rey thought so too and hoped so. Which makes her learning that they’re nobody devastating in the same way that Luke learning that his father didn’t die and is no longer a Jedi did in ESB. And that’s a good thing.

I didn’t think that Rey thought her parents were somebody important. You take a mystery surrounding them (who were they? why did they leave?) combined with her enormous power, and of course the audience is going to dwell on that question. As noted in my edit, I was hoping that her parents weren’t important. The movie was winking at us to say that maybe they are.

There are unexplained things which leaves the audience to question. Sure, that’s fine. But there’s nothing in TFA to suggest her powers and her parentage are related.

Thing is though, TLJ does answer these questions:

Q) Who are Rey’s parents?
A) Nobody

Q) Are Rey’s parents the reason why she has the force?
A) No, she doesn’t need special parents to have the force

Q) Why is she strong in the force?
A) Because that’s the way the force works

The last two seem to directly contradict what is implied in the OT — you hear things like “the Force runs strong in your family,” suggesting that it’s a genetic/familial thing.

I don’t see that as a bad thing…or true a true thing. “She doesn’t need special parents to have the force” is not the same as “She has to have special parents to have the force.”

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There is a relatively small matter I’d like views on: accents in the film. I think Boyega sounds much more engaging in his natural accent. Do you think it would have been better for him to speak naturally?

And what about the southern-accented alien (played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt, apparently) at the Casino who reported Finn and Rose to the police? And Tim Hardy was to be to be a southern-accented Stormtrooper in a scene that was cut. Are certain accents, like Southern, too specific to feel right in Star Wars?

The blue elephant in the room.

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 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.

WYSHS

True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.

Making Rey’s parents an issue was a creative choice in the film. Rey’s pining for her parents was the chip on which the story salsa was conveyed, but she is not independent from the film. TLJ made a point not only that her parents didn’t care about her (which was sort of obvious) but that they were nobody. And why would we have thought they were somebody? Because the film set up that intrigue - deliberately exploiting expectations of people on the internet, to be sure. A film attempting to stand apart from the OT shouldn’t do that.

This point for me is more what Luke would call a “a cheap trick” but it’s there. Can’t pretend it’s solely the fault of fans or that dastardly rogue Rey.

No. No one in TFA asks who Rey’s parents are, not even her. In fact, there’s no reason to believe in TFA that she doesn’t know who they are. They are mentioned a few times, but the question mark is all audience. They are only important for Rey’s character. And in that regard, they are important, sure. Rey is waiting for them. This aspect informs her arc in both films. But there is nothing in TFA that suggests that her parents must be, themselves important, beyond their relationship to Rey. Nothing at all.

If you thought they might be somebody, it’s only because Rey thought so too and hoped so. Which makes her learning that they’re nobody devastating in the same way that Luke learning that his father didn’t die and is no longer a Jedi did in ESB. And that’s a good thing.

I didn’t think that Rey thought her parents were somebody important. You take a mystery surrounding them (who were they? why did they leave?) combined with her enormous power, and of course the audience is going to dwell on that question. As noted in my edit, I was hoping that her parents weren’t important. The movie was winking at us to say that maybe they are.

There are unexplained things which leaves the audience to question. Sure, that’s fine. But there’s nothing in TFA to suggest her powers and her parentage are related.

Thing is though, TLJ does answer these questions:

Q) Who are Rey’s parents?
A) Nobody

Q) Are Rey’s parents the reason why she has the force?
A) No, she doesn’t need special parents to have the force

Q) Why is she strong in the force?
A) Because that’s the way the force works

The last two seem to directly contradict what is implied in the OT — you hear things like “the Force runs strong in your family,” suggesting that it’s a genetic/familial thing.

I don’t see that as a bad thing…or true a true thing. “She doesn’t need special parents to have the force” is not the same as “She has to have special parents to have the force.”

I think it’s completely reasonable to assume that not all who are especially Force sensitive are called to use it, especially since the whole Jedi recruiting school thing ended after the prequels. Thus, I assume that Rey’s parents were Force-sensitive but happened to be nobody particular in the galaxy at large.

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Mrebo said:

There is a relatively small matter I’d like views on: accents in the film. I think Boyega sounds much more engaging in his natural accent. Do you think it would have been better for him to speak naturally?

I actually thought that his fake American accent was better her than in TFA. Not sure if that’s just me or the overall acting being more convincing, but those are my two cents on that.

And what about the southern-accented alien (played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt, apparently) at the Casino who reported Finn and Rose to the police? And Tim Hardy was to be to be a southern-accented Stormtrooper in a scene that was cut. Are certain accents, like Southern, too specific to feel right in Star Wars?

I don’t see how “southern” is a specific accent. I mean, it’s an accent like all others with gradations and a large number of speakers. I don’t see any problems with it… and, accents probably have whole different meanings in the galaxy than in our Earth.

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They might also have discovered her abilities and freaked out, leading to her abandonment?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.

WYSHS

True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.

Making Rey’s parents an issue was a creative choice in the film. Rey’s pining for her parents was the chip on which the story salsa was conveyed, but she is not independent from the film. TLJ made a point not only that her parents didn’t care about her (which was sort of obvious) but that they were nobody. And why would we have thought they were somebody? Because the film set up that intrigue - deliberately exploiting expectations of people on the internet, to be sure. A film attempting to stand apart from the OT shouldn’t do that.

This point for me is more what Luke would call a “a cheap trick” but it’s there. Can’t pretend it’s solely the fault of fans or that dastardly rogue Rey.

No. No one in TFA asks who Rey’s parents are, not even her. In fact, there’s no reason to believe in TFA that she doesn’t know who they are. They are mentioned a few times, but the question mark is all audience. They are only important for Rey’s character. And in that regard, they are important, sure. Rey is waiting for them. This aspect informs her arc in both films. But there is nothing in TFA that suggests that her parents must be, themselves important, beyond their relationship to Rey. Nothing at all.

If you thought they might be somebody, it’s only because Rey thought so too and hoped so. Which makes her learning that they’re nobody devastating in the same way that Luke learning that his father didn’t die and is no longer a Jedi did in ESB. And that’s a good thing.

I didn’t think that Rey thought her parents were somebody important. You take a mystery surrounding them (who were they? why did they leave?) combined with her enormous power, and of course the audience is going to dwell on that question. As noted in my edit, I was hoping that her parents weren’t important. The movie was winking at us to say that maybe they are.

There are unexplained things which leaves the audience to question. Sure, that’s fine. But there’s nothing in TFA to suggest her powers and her parentage are related.

Thing is though, TLJ does answer these questions:

Q) Who are Rey’s parents?
A) Nobody

Q) Are Rey’s parents the reason why she has the force?
A) No, she doesn’t need special parents to have the force

Q) Why is she strong in the force?
A) Because that’s the way the force works

The last two seem to directly contradict what is implied in the OT — you hear things like “the Force runs strong in your family,” suggesting that it’s a genetic/familial thing.

I don’t see that as a bad thing…or true a true thing. “She doesn’t need special parents to have the force” is not the same as “She has to have special parents to have the force.”

Quite. Einstein’s grandson was a physicist. There may well be a genetic component at play, but there are brilliant physicists not related to Einstein.

The blue elephant in the room.

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NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.

WYSHS

True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.

Making Rey’s parents an issue was a creative choice in the film. Rey’s pining for her parents was the chip on which the story salsa was conveyed, but she is not independent from the film. TLJ made a point not only that her parents didn’t care about her (which was sort of obvious) but that they were nobody. And why would we have thought they were somebody? Because the film set up that intrigue - deliberately exploiting expectations of people on the internet, to be sure. A film attempting to stand apart from the OT shouldn’t do that.

This point for me is more what Luke would call a “a cheap trick” but it’s there. Can’t pretend it’s solely the fault of fans or that dastardly rogue Rey.

No. No one in TFA asks who Rey’s parents are, not even her. In fact, there’s no reason to believe in TFA that she doesn’t know who they are. They are mentioned a few times, but the question mark is all audience. They are only important for Rey’s character. And in that regard, they are important, sure. Rey is waiting for them. This aspect informs her arc in both films. But there is nothing in TFA that suggests that her parents must be, themselves important, beyond their relationship to Rey. Nothing at all.

If you thought they might be somebody, it’s only because Rey thought so too and hoped so. Which makes her learning that they’re nobody devastating in the same way that Luke learning that his father didn’t die and is no longer a Jedi did in ESB. And that’s a good thing.

Both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi treat Rey’s parentage like a secret. If it wasn’t a secret, then we would have learned who they were in TFA or in the Dark Side cave in TLJ. The fact that it was saved for a dramatic reveal by the villain in a similar fashion to ESB proves at least that Rian Johnson thought it was enough of a secret to go through the motions.

Well technically when Rey says where she comes from is “classified, big secret,” she’s being sarcastic. As in, nowhere, nothing, it’s not a secret at all…

I’m not saying that her parents identity wasn’t important information, only that her parents identities didn’t have to be important (as in, important people). I suppose I am pushing back against specific words because people expect certain things from mysteries. I don’t think all mysteries need to be answered, I think there’s a lot of power in letting a mystery lie. (In essence, Rey’s parents are still somewhat a mystery, we don’t know their names or what they look like. We don’t know their history or whether they were force sensitive or anything.) We know as much information as the story and the characters in it require.

Of course TFA suggests we’ll learn more about Rey’s parents. We basically have to because we know next to nothing about them and yet they are clearly important to Rey as they drive a lot of her actions in TFA. It’s hard to imagine, after spending all of that film trying to get back to Jakku for them, that she’ll be able to completely forget about them now that she’s joined the Resistance. It’s still unresolved for her, which means it is for us too. Basically the only way to resolve it would be either for Rey to meet up with her parents or for her (and us) to come to accept the information that they aren’t important for the future of her story, which is exactly what happens.

Could TFA have resolved this? Sure. But it didn’t have to, and there’s a good argument for that it shouldn’t have.

Since Rey is supposedly the viewer avatar for these films, I can only assume that Rey either doesn’t know her parentage or has suppressed that information because it’s too painful, and over the course of two films she gradually comes to the understanding that they really were nobodies. If she had seen the shadowy figures of her parents during the TFA Force vision (and her subconscious aversion to knowing the truth), it would have gone a long way towards communicating that this is her primary weakness.

But her primary weakness in TFA is already clearly that she has held on to her parents for too long. The implication in TFA is mainly that this is primarily because she wants a family and people that love her (and won’t abandon her). TLJ keeps that but subtly adds that she hopes/hoped that her parents would be people or moderate importance who would show her her place in the world. This is what matters in regards to the viewer avatar-ness of her character.

The impression isn’t that she doesn’t know who her parents are at all, just that, since she hasn’t seen them since she was a kid, their importance in the world was a bit ambiguous.

Could TFA have worked this in, that she hopes her parents are special in some way? Sure. But did it need to? I don’t really think so, it’s just another wrinkle that was added to her pining for them in TLJ.

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yhwx said:

Mrebo said:

There is a relatively small matter I’d like views on: accents in the film. I think Boyega sounds much more engaging in his natural accent. Do you think it would have been better for him to speak naturally?

I actually thought that his fake American accent was better her than in TFA. Not sure if that’s just me or the overall acting being more convincing, but those are my two cents on that.

And what about the southern-accented alien (played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt, apparently) at the Casino who reported Finn and Rose to the police? And Tim Hardy was to be to be a southern-accented Stormtrooper in a scene that was cut. Are certain accents, like Southern, too specific to feel right in Star Wars?

I don’t see how “southern” is a specific accent. I mean, it’s an accent like all others with gradations and a large number of speakers. I don’t see any problems with it… and, accents probably have whole different meanings in the galaxy than in our Earth.

I’m a northerner so what sounds normal to me is different than in other parts of the country. But there is a “Standard American” which sounds a whole lot like what is spoken in most parts of the country, including much of the north. Hearing an alien with a Minnesota accent would feel odd to me, nothing against Minnesotans.

In a similar vein, I wonder what people think of Nien Nunb when they can understand the Kenyan languages he speaks.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

Obviously TLJ does tease the audience with this, with the expectations the fans have. And I’m okay with it here since it ultimately just serves as the perfect “pulling the rug out” moment, both for Rey and for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something they could never hope to be right about. TFA didn’t create this obsession over who Rey’s parents are. The fans did.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

I do tend to agree that, if TLJ didn’t decide that her parents were important to her story anymore, there is a way it could have worked (where you assume that she has managed to truly move beyond them within in the story of TFA).

It is a bit of a mystery though in TFA (namely, why did they leave her?), though just because it is a mystery doesn’t mean it needs to be solved. But ultimately I do think it is to the benefit of Rey’s character that it is definitively resolved in this way.

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In fitting with the Star Wars tradition, I’m sure Force ghost Luke will sit on a log and explain all of this to Rey.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

Obviously TLJ does tease the audience with this, with the expectations the fans have. And I’m okay with it here since it ultimately just serves as the perfect “pulling the rug out” moment, both for Rey and for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something they could never hope to be right about. TFA didn’t create this obsession over who Rey’s parents are. The fans did.

Exactly. And that’s why it feels so weird. If it’s only a plot point limited to Rey avoiding the call to adventure, why toy with it further?

As to accents in Star Wars, as someone who is from the American South I found Red Leader’s accent in ‘wait for my signal to start your run’ to be very strange in the original movie. The accent of the Canto Bight alien was also off-putting, and I think it would give the scene much more of an alien feel if he was subtitled with alien dialogue.

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 (Edited)

NeverarGreat said:

Gaffer Tape said:

Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

Obviously TLJ does tease the audience with this, with the expectations the fans have. And I’m okay with it here since it ultimately just serves as the perfect “pulling the rug out” moment, both for Rey and for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something they could never hope to be right about. TFA didn’t create this obsession over who Rey’s parents are. The fans did.

Exactly. And that’s why it feels so weird. If it’s only a plot point limited to Rey avoiding the call to adventure, why toy with it further?

Because, as I mentioned before, they add the “I need someone to show me my place in this” wrinkle.

Not to mention, just because she’s willing to leave Jakku, doesn’t mean she’s forsaken her parents entirely. Easier for Luke when he saw is adopted parents definitively gone. (in this regard I suppose she is closer to Anakin, in that her lingering attachments is what tempts her to the dark side.)

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 (Edited)

SilverWook said:

greenpenguino said:

Ryan said:

In ROTJ, I liked the Ewoks. Even remember playing with that Ewok village toy. But after the prequels came out, I learned that there were a sizable group of OT fans who hated the Ewoks. i.e. just there to sell toys, or were too cuddly or something. I can understand people not liking the Ewoks. I do hate the CGI with blinking eyes in the Blu-Rays though. Also wish the Ewoks battle scenes didn’t have that green screen look to them.

But at least the Ewoks weren’t nothing near like Jar Jar.

But I was wondering. Are there any here who hated the Ewoks, but love the Porgs?

I’m indifferent to Ewoks, neither love or hate them. They’re just there.
Well, except for Wicket. Wicket’s great.

I love the Porgs. (Up until recently I didn’t know what to call them. When I left the cinema I just called them those penguin/guinea-pig thingys). I thought they were cute and charming. That part where they’re burrowing inside the falcon’s wiring made me laugh a lot. I had a big smile whenever they were on screen.

On a different note, did that big Death Star battering ram thingy remind anybody about The Doomsday Machine from Star Trek??? Cos I got big Doomsday Machine vibes off of that thing.

In Frink’s version Commodore Decker tries to ram a shuttle craft right down that thing’s throat, only to be foiled by Rose. 😛

Well, at least we know how Spock will fit into his ridiculous edit… in 50 years time 😛

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Gaffer Tape said:

Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

Obviously TLJ does tease the audience with this, with the expectations the fans have. And I’m okay with it here since it ultimately just serves as the perfect “pulling the rug out” moment, both for Rey and for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something they could never hope to be right about. TFA didn’t create this obsession over who Rey’s parents are. The fans did.

Yeah

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Gaffer Tape said:
…for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something…

Ah, but the money they make off fans’ pointless obsessions! We’ll know the planet Snoke was born on, his mother’s maiden name, and the make of his first ship before the year is out.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Creox said:

After thinking about this for a while longer (this site has that effect doesn’t it? :😃

I think a lot of the angst with TLJ comes from the marked difference in presentation between the OT and this film…Luke in the OT and the story in general is one of mythology as we all know but it was also written and filmed like a mythological tale. The hero’s are right and the villains wrong…the contrast is deep and wide between the two…very black and white.

We see it as a parable and a story in that very light.

With TLJ we see that changed quite drastically imo. Luke is a Jedi master but he is also very human with human flaws and frailties. We see the rebellion/resistance repeatedly fail and that is a jolt for those of us who have been waiting to see the OT style of story telling. It was for me but in hindsight I was happier for it as it opens this franchise and story to open up into many more possibilities. Looking back at the EU the main plot is always similar to one another.

I felt a closer affiliation with Luke in TLJ because we’ve all failed and messed things up but he was able to find a reason to pick himself up and realize he was wrong…he made things right as he could.

Under the broad theme of good v evil, The OT dealt with complex themes and characters. It dealt with failure and duplicity by the good guys. Telling you to go kill a guy who is, unknown to you, your father is a really shabby thing. It’s very ends justifies the means. The idea that Vader, established as repentlessly evil, could be saved is profound. We do need to scratch just below the surface, but there is tons of complexity.

The problem in TLJ is not that Luke failed but how he handled that failure.

Sure, but the manner in which that film is presented makes us look at from afar. Myths are great for teaching universal lessons but they are utilize generic mythological characters to do it. TLJ brings the characters in line with real people with real problems in a close and raw sense. I get what you’re saying but for me to be able to see and feel Luke’s doubt and pain in TLJ was much more visceral.

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DominicCobb said:

And likable characters and good pacing and better production values and more interesting themes and better music and

I’ve always said the TFA’s biggest triumph is making me care about Rey, Kylo, Poe and BB8. Heck even Finn.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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Mrebo said:

Gaffer Tape said:
…for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something…

Ah, but the money they make off fans’ pointless obsessions! We’ll know the planet Snoke was born on, his mother’s maiden name, and the make of his first ship before the year is out.

And then we’ll be able to access his finances and reset his passwords!

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joefavs said:

Mrebo said:

Gaffer Tape said:
…for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something…

Ah, but the money they make off fans’ pointless obsessions! We’ll know the planet Snoke was born on, his mother’s maiden name, and the make of his first ship before the year is out.

And then we’ll be able to access his finances and reset his passwords!

ALLOL

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NFBisms said:
It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. And that you can always come back from it.

Whether or not another director challenges that, of course they can. But TLJ’s reading fits with the OT pretty well.

You can always come back from it, and you can always fall. The whole point of the movie is that nothing defines you ever, because it stips off Life (or the force) from any teleologic significance. It works both on screen and as a meta-commentary on the fans.

Point is that from that point of view, call it somewhat nihillistic, you can always claim pertinance to a certain structure if it fits right. Precisely because it is a nihillistic point of view.

But even if the message applies to the OT it counterdicts its explicit teleology.

Which on the other hand is the only thing it could do conceeding that given how VI ends, otherwise there would be no room for VII as it was designed.

It’s a very complex movie whose analysis goes far beyond the realm of the like/don’t like simplification. I personally enjoyed it despite its implicances (which I clearly don’t share) and it’s easily and by far the most intellectualizing movie of the saga, an author film hiding beneath the visual clichès of a pop culture trademark.

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Mithrandir said:

NFBisms said:
It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. And that you can always come back from it.

Whether or not another director challenges that, of course they can. But TLJ’s reading fits with the OT pretty well.

You can always come back from it, and you can always fall. The whole point of the movie is that nothing defines you ever, because it stips off Life (or the force) from any teleologic significance. It works both on screen and as a meta-commentary on the fans.

Point is that from that point of view, call it somewhat nihillistic, you can always claim pertinance to a certain structure if it fits right. Precisely because it is a nihillistic point of view.

But even if the message applies to the OT it counterdicts its explicit teleology.

Which on the other hand is the only thing it could do conceeding that given how VI ends, otherwise there would be no room for VII as it was designed.

It’s a very complex movie whose analysis goes far beyond the realm of the like/don’t like simplification. I personally enjoyed it despite its implicances (which I clearly don’t share) and it’s easily and by far the most intellectualizing movie of the saga, an author film hiding beneath the visual clichès of a pop culture trademark.

I think I agree with you, but my understanding of the language of philosophy is about as good as my Spanish. The nihilistic point seems a bit to unpack but I think we see the other points made by critics of the movie more commonly - not that they have any more impact when phrased differently!

The blue elephant in the room.

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A couple of people have mentioned that we see Rey’s parents take off in a ship. True, but we don’t see where that ship went and we don’t know if it is an aircraft or soacecraft and we don’t know where they went. We don’t know if their destination was 5 km away or 5 parsecs. We don’t know if they crashed during departure or if they crashed returning sometime later. Did they abandon her or leave her behind for her safety and then unfortunately die. And if Kylo follows normal dark side misinformation, what he told Rey is mostly true, though likely misleading.