The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 121

NFBisms said:

I don’t even think you have to assume Luke changed at all within the 30+ years, tbh.

The Luke I know coming out of ROTJ would absolutely hold himself accountable for failing himself and his ideals in the way he did that night. He wouldn’t just brush off messing up like that with Ben and continue pretending to be so self-righteous, when he feels that he isn’t. I can understand his reaction to keep himself away from the galaxy because of his arc in 4-6 teaching him that action doesn’t always mean heroism.

In his mind, his presence and the spread of the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo, endangered the galaxy and only doomed it to more of the same darkness. A cycle that would only continue repeating itself.

You see this kind of thinking with “I shouldn’t have come I’m jeopardizing the mission” when he senses Vader is on Endor with them. And you see an extension of it when he assures Leia that she is the next hope if he doesn’t make it back from the Death Star II. If he feels he can only make something worse, he feels it best to stay away, and he knows that even when he’s gone, there is still light in the galaxy - heroes that will fight for good.

“To say that because the Jedi die the light dies, is vanity.”

I’m not saying he was right to stay away. The whole idea is that he’s wrong, and that he can still be a hero. But it fits with the character for me. I don’t think he changed drastically in those 30 years. A huge thing just put him in a drastically different place.

Yes, but to me this ignores the obviously better solution of him trying to stop Snoke and Kylo, and then retire. If he succeeds, he will have saved the galaxy, and then no more Jedi. If he fails, he dies, no more Jedi. Why choose for certain failure, if there’s a chance of success? Success doesn’t preclude him from ending the Jedi. How can he make things worse, than by leaving an evil Force user in charge, and allow him to train as many evil Force users, as he sees fit? Snoke didn’t need Luke. He just wanted him dead to prevent the rise of the new Jedi. The worst thing Luke could do, is to oblige, and go to some island to die. Luke’s decision just doesn’t make sense.

I found my feelings on this movie to be rather conflicted. Some of it was amazing, some of it felt very prequel-esque. Maybe it’s my resentment of the current state of animation, but those little birdie mofos hanging out with Chewie reminded me too much of Minions and cute George Lucas creatures. The pacing left a lot to be desired, particularly in the first act, but that seems to be a recurring issue over the past decade. Even the OT had pacing issues.

I’ve seen praise of the subversion elsewhere. Much of it seemed predictable, especially in the first half. Maybe I’m just a jerk who’s been immersed in postmodernism. After all, I thought Love Is An Open Door was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek on my first viewing of Frozen, but many were surprised at the subversions of that movie.

I loved the Rey/Ben scenes, and how they hearken back to the Throne Room, which happen to be my favorite parts of the OT. The Rey/Luke scenes were very enjoyable as well. The notable exception was that milk scene. I was more disturbed by that than I should’ve been; heck, I watched my own toenail surgery with no issue. Still though, it gave me those Ren and Stimpy chills. Luke’s death was handled just as it should’ve been IMO, even if it did necessitate that I fight back manly tears.

For reference, I was not a big fan of TFA and its recycling. I much preferred Rogue One.

SilverWook said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Interesting, as I know a segment of the Disney theme park fanbase sees red every time one of those classic rides gets tweaked to be more PC, or has modern elements added. Pirates Of The Caribbean being a prime example. It’s like the Special Edition of E ticket attractions.

C’mon now. It’s not the Special Edition. It’s a Special Edition. Along with the attic of The Haunted Mansion, and most of Epcot for the past 25 years.

And Space Mountain is the GOUT. An over-promised half-assed facelift of an aging favorite.

yhwx said:

I find the argument that Luke was made too pathetic for this movie to be totally unconvincing. Sure, he’s pretty pathetic in the first part of the movie, but his final act is his finest hour. He does exactly what he does in ROTJ. He refuses to fight. Luke’s a pacifist, and that’s how he manages to win both times. He wins by letting himself die. Ruminate on that for a second.

If in WWII the Nazis were to have managed to beat the Allies so badly, they all could fit in a single military transport aircraft, who then managed to escape, I would not call it a victory for the Allies. The Nazis win the war. Ruminate on that for a second. 😉

NFBisms said:

Even then, it’s clearly not an end-of-war victory; the goal was to get what’s left of the Resistance the hell away from the FO safely, and Luke accomplished it.

No war in the history of the world was won by killing every single enemy soldier. What happened at the end of TLJ wasn’t a victory for the Resistancs in any shape or form. The Resistance lost, but a few survived, as in any lost war. The Resistance has no allies. Everyone has turned their backs to them. If for the sake of argument the FO creates a benevolent dictatorship or perhaps even some form of democracy, the Resistance have zero change of ever rising again. So, the few Resistance members still alive have their fate lying completely in the FO’s hands. The Resistance cannot win, the only thing that can happen is for the FO to screw up. It’s quite ironic really.

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebelling against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. At the end of TLJ the galaxy had apparently accepted the FO’s rule. Nobody answered the Resistance call for support. Now it’s literally hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever again. They won, and it’s up to them to let it slip through their fingers. The remaining Resistance members have no part to play, but wait, and hope they screw up.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

yhwx said:

I was more talking about Luke and Ben’s personal conflict than anything else but you can take however you want to.

I know. I’m looking at the bigger picture.

The thing is, most of the actions Luke takes in the movie are actually pretty Luke-y (it’s still weird to hear him say that “Jedis trained Vader therefore Fuck the Jedi”).

But what he did to get to that point, the actions he took between RotJ and TFA were very out of character every step of the way for me, and that’s pretty hard for me to accept.

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

I was more talking about Luke and Ben’s personal conflict than anything else but you can take however you want to.

I know. I’m looking at the bigger picture.

Looking at the bigger bigger picture Luke’s arc and character from the OT were sacrificed in order to make Rey the last of the Jedi. Like, she’s literally at the end of TLJ the same thing that Luke is at the end of RotJ.

The only thing making it not the same exact situation is that in TLJ they took the opposite twist as in the OT: Vader (Ren) killed the emperor (Snoke) and is now the supreme leader of the Galaxy. And the rebels (Resistance) lost to the Empire (first order).

This bothers me.

Luke had the one mission, to recreate the Jedi Order. I’m sorry to quote something from the EU, but Obi-Wan said to Luke in the First of the Thrawn books: “you’re not the last of the old; you’re the First of the new”. And I always thought that way. I find it hard to believe that Luke would be a PT-like Jedi. Heck, I always thought that was the most important part of the overall Darth Vader arc.

And it seems to me that it’s all been sacrificed in order to make Luke Rey’s Yoda, so that she can be the last of the Jedi. Sure, he went out as a badass in maybe my favorite scene in cinema history, but I’m not sure if that makes it up for it.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

Not technically wrong about how the FO can win, but that’s probably not how it’s going to go lol.

They’re probably going to continue being an evil empire.

I suspect they will. 😃