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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 112

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oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

Go watch the fight again. He was on ass before the planet came apart. He was on the ground helpless for 15 seconds before the planet came apart and they were separated. She won the fight.

Look this and tell me she didn’t win the fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m18s

How about you go watch all of the fight again? And post in on here (don’t worry - I have below).

I did watch all of it and posted the ending above.

Just because - as I stated before - he is on his arse and scarred in the final few blows of the fight - doesn’t mean she won the fight.

He was on the ground helpless. Him scarred, her not. She still had her Saber, he didn’t. I don’t know how you can look at that ending and tell me that she didn’t win the fight.

Just because he is scarred - doesn’t mean she won the fight - again see my previous posts.

I am not going to argue it anymore. I totally completely disagree with you about the outcome of the fight.

The planet came apart before there was any ‘winner’.

You are flat out wrong.

The planet didn’t come apart before there was any winner? Right…

Ok, maybe it started to come apart before there was any winner. But that crack in the earth that separated Rey and Ren occurred after Rey won the fight.

Selecting certain scenes from an overall event to highlight an opinion does not make it fact. I find it baffling that you think it does.

I find it baffling that you don’t think the end of a lightsaber fight determines who wins. I find it baffling that you can look at that ending and not think Rey won.

Once again, the planet coming apart ended the fight, no?

Try watching the whole fight, here you go - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI - and put it into context of my previous posts. Rey is on the back foot and losing the fight - on the edge of a ‘cliff’ before she let’s the force in… and even then the planet breaks apart before there any winner…

As I said above, I already watched it. All of it

And in the context of my previous posts? No, I didn’t think so - no worries.

I watched the fight before I posted that link. How do you think I knew what time to set the link to start at? I really don’t appreciate being called a liar.

Mate, that you repeatedly ignore what is being posted in reply to you just re-affirms my thinking that you are selectively cherrypicking parts of responses that you don’t agree with or wish to engage with.

That’s cool. I’ll leave it there, by all means feel free to repeat yourself yet again.

If you referring to the fact that I didn’t respond to the 2nd part of your post, it is because I had to cut it short. Sometimes real life interferes with completing responses to posts.


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Right, yeah the screenplay - I didn’t see the edit for imsdb before posting.

Again, as you missed the part of my post where it says ‘you can even see it in the film, in case you need to go looking for more articles to prove what actually happened in the film… didn’t happen’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI (around 4m 15s in - though watch the whole fight if you wish to take into consideration the context in which my original posts mentioned)

^ Doesn’t seem that there’s any time for that before the planet breaks up (again, I may have already mentioned this before - and also linked to it before).

 

I really got to get to bed. G’night.

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Good night OT dot com. Good work. Sleep well. I’ll most likely kill you in the morning.

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 (Edited)

Rey won the fight in TFA. I can’t believe this is even being disputed. Everything about the scene says she won the fight, especially the swelling victorious music.

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brash_stryker said:

Rey won the fight in TFA. I can’t believe this is even being disputed. Everything about the scene says she won the fight, especially the swelling victorious music.

this.


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Mrebo said:

Porkins4real said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”

If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.

Those statements certainly are inconsistent. I focused on specifically what Matt.F was taking issue with in his comments. In one was an actor’s misunderstanding of a term and in another an actor’s view of his character. No reason to get a bee in your bonnet.

He was talking to me I think.

Right, sorry Matt.F. just posted the link. Feel free to explain the apparent contradiction in your two sentences!

A joke, that didn’t play well in writing.

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

  1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

Winning a battle is not about playing fair. That’s called sport. If Rey had the intention of killing Luke, he would be a Force ghost. Therefore, she won the fight. She cheated, and she, a complete novice, beat a Jedi Master.

The fact she was able to force grab the lightsaber and Luke was unable to stop this, makes her the winner. WE also know she out force grabbed Kylo.

She picked up the whole force grab thing way faster and better than Luke and Kylo who have been working on it for 30 years and most of his ife (I assume Ben Solo started training as child in the Jedi tradition)

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DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

What was the context of the Force choke discussion anyway? Did it relate to anything in TLJ, or did someone mention it in passing, and it grew into this huge debate?

I brought it up in regards to options Luke may have had when his projection was fighting Kylo

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TV’s Frink said:

brash_stryker said:

I can’t believe this is even being disputed.

Have you missed the force choke discussion?

This beats the force choke debate by a mile.

I can absolutely believe there is a dispute because people come with different frames of reference for what they see.

In this case, Kylo is laying flat on his back defenseless and Rey in command standing over him. To me, that’s beaten.

We could imagine that Kylo might refuse to yield, Rey wouldn’t be quick to strike, and all kinds of gymnastics and force powers might ensue. That’s a reasonable thought, but that didn’t happen. By my criteria he didn’t need to surrender or be unconscious/dead to have been beaten. The fight ended when the planet split and at that point Kylo was beaten. That’s no different if Rey simply ran away at that point, that wouldn’t mean it was a draw or that she lost.

Just thought I’d add thoughts beyond: I can’t believe you think that!

The blue elephant in the room.

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DrDre said:
No I provided undeniable proof via the TFA screenplay. That’s what the creators intended. There’s nothing selective about that. You can keep denying the facts, if you want.

I reinterate:

Force Awakens screenplay:

CHEST. HE GOES DOWN, SUDDENLY A FEARFUL MAN, A LARGE BURN
SCAR SLASHED ACROSS HIS FACE! He still reaches for his saber.
And she could kill him – right now, with ONE VICIOUS STRIKE!
But she stops. Realizing she stands on a greater edge than
even the cliff – the edge of the dark side. The earth
SHAKES. The earth splits. A gully forms.

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens.html

That’s, what’s in the screenplay. That’s what’s in the film. That’s, what we’ve been arguing.

G’night.

I wouldn’t use that script scene descriptions to prove anything of narrative intentions. That isn’t even the original script ( as many of them on there aren’t).

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The movie itself was, until now apparently, undeniable proof that she beat him. Who knows…

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 (Edited)

I agree that Rey won the fight. Not that it means anything, though; because it was established that Kylo was an emotional and physical wreck that was completely unfit to fight anyone.

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I’m picturing Kylo broken and wounded (with a triumphant Rey standing over him) saying “all right, we’ll call it a draw”…
With all due respect to Monty Python…

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Wow what a terrible movie!! It genuinely felt like a middle finger to the fans!! Sooooo disappointed with what they did to Luke! I have already started to rewrite it the way I would’ve done it. How could Everyone involved in this film have missed the mark so massively???

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Did you ask for a refund?

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SilverWook, it is in many respects a terrible movie which I enjoyed the first time and plan to see again tomorrow. Maybe I will ask for a refund for both viewings after. It’s not real loathing until one requests a refund 😉

The blue elephant in the room.

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SilverWook said:

https://geektyrant.com/news/star-wars-fans-in-1980-reacted-to-empire-strikes-back-in-the-same-way-fans-are-reacting-to-the-last-jedi

Can you imagine what it would have been like if the internet had existed back then? Empire wasn’t well received by a lot of people who loved the first film and people forget this. Being a teenager when Empire came out i saw a lot of this. Before the film came out there were about 8 of us that were fans. I was the first to see Empire (in Birmingham in 70mm) and i didn’t think it was as good as SW but still enjoyed it. Once the film finally came to Oswestry (where i was living at the time) it divided all of. A couple decided to get rid of all their figures & merch because “they ruined Star Wars”, one said he wouldn’t bother going to see the next one as there was no point and only 2 of us remained fans in the months after (the others just thought they didn’t like it because they were probably too old now). They hated that the battle was at the beginning and that the rest of the film is boring until the lightsaber duel and that it was not fun, but depressing. But then there was also the other side when people who didn’t think much of SW liked ESB. Then you had the usual " I don’t want a black guy being a main character" than ran rampant back in the late 70’s/ early 80’s. But it seems that section hasn’t changed much with the angry fanboys hating the diversity in SW now.

The difference between now and then is that most of the time you were discussing SW, you were discussing it face to face. Now the anonymity of hiding behind a keyboard, along with the change in society, just brings out the more vapid side of the fandom.

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I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

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Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

There were many criticisms about the characters when ESB came out. Claiming they ruined Leia because they turned her into a cow that tossed aside Luke and there is no way she would ever have been interested in Han. That they ruined Luke. They turned him from this hero that was powerful enough to destroy the Death Star and now he is this winging kid who is now a failure because he can’t do some simple tricks that the muppet asks him to do and then who gets his ass kicked and cries like a baby. And having 3P0 & R2 split up for most of the film also received a lot of flack .

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Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

No, there is no difference between the nitpicks of Empire and The Last Jedi. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

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 (Edited)

I’d be interested in peoples thoughts on why Sci-Fi movies as a genre seem to attract the kind of ‘microscopic’ forensic analysis that other genres don’t.

As the link to the ESB letters page shows, and having lived the period myself, it has always been there. This desire to nitpick, and to pull at all the threads and cleverly say “Ha, I knew it, this is the one that causes it all to unravel!”.

Is it because sci-fi and fantasy fans are more intelligent and able to deconstruct films better than most?

Is it because they become more invested in the ‘universe’ of the movie and so it matters to them more than regular punters?

Is it because they’re socially awkward? That old stereotype, don’t feel assured in the real world and don’t feel assured around girls (we’ve seen that with the reaction to Rey and with the new Dr Who casting).

Is it because of the Prequels - ‘George Lucas raped my childhood’ - did that moment change geek fandom?

There are countless examples in this forum of people trying to pull at the threads and unravel The Last Jedi, and as a fan of the film I am trying not to be judgmental. I have also been on the other side, as I walked out of Attack Of The Clones having hated the photoshop aesthetic and I am sure I vented a bit on social media too.

Anyone have any insight? Why does this happen so purposefully in sci-fi / fantasy but not in other movie genres?

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I around for TESB too. But I was’t a teenager. I don’t recall a lot of my age group reacting like that. What I remember were arguments over whether or not Vader was really Luke’s Dad. I guess younger kids don’t analyze deeply.


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