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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 102

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Porkins4real said:

Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 1 to 2 hours training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

To be clear the same “Gary-Sue” criticism was made about child Anakin. I think the Mary-Sue thing is misunderstood. It not about putting women down, it is actually about wanting them to have real Characters, rather than idealized ones. It would be progress for women if Mary-Sue characters did not exist - Driver got to play a complex character, Ridley got to play a one-dimensional character. Who got the better role?

I hadn’t heard the ‘Gary Sue’ thing before, and both Anakin TPM and Luke ANH provide consistent parallel examples with Rey… all characters beginning ‘The Hero’s Journey’.

The moderators on this forum are super-engaged and I suspect that misogyny would be quickly suppressed, but I am sure many of the guys on here also read other forums, reddit, facebook and have seen with their own eyes that the ‘Mary Sue’ complaint has been the rallying call for a rather ugly streak of misogyny to come out of the woodwork. Kathleen Kennedy has also been on the receiving end.

For Dre to dismiss it as “anti-feminist nonsense” is really naïve. You don’t have to be a ‘Social Justice Warrior’ to see that it’s a good thing to have female heroes and role models. You just have to be a human being.

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Matt.F said:

I notice you didn’t compare Rey with Anakin winning the podrace (no training), or with Luke using the Force to make a shot “that’s one in a million” (no training) as that would rather count against your Mary Sue argument.

Rather you go on about Luke having had a hard life - in fact Rey has had a far harder life than Luke. She raised herself as a scavenger and lived alone in a shanty. Luke had a relatively secure home life and upbringing. When Rey does finally make a connection to a Father figure that she has desperately wanted she sees him killed before her eyes… I’d say that qualifies.

Matt.F

Don’t you want Rey to be the best character she can be? Do you think she is?

I think she is too good to be true and the lack of vulnerability she has makes her less interesting to watch.

This is worth a watch on the topic https://youtu.be/CALcI-4vM8E

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This Mary Sue stuff is just flat out wrong. I’d be saying the same things about Rey being too powerful without training if she were male. In fact I don’t necessarily object to it. I just want more of an explanation for it. That balance thing with REN just doesn’t fly. We don’t see that happen with Luke and Vader. Yes Luke made the Death Star shot, but then after getting some training he gets his rear end kicked by Vader. This clearly shows it is much more difficult to take on a trained force user in a lightsaber fight than it is to make the Death Star shot. There is no evidence that Anakin was using the force in the pod race. He as well was beaten in a lightsaber fight after receiving some training again proving what I said above. Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation. Saying that I am sexist for thinking is just ridiculous and silly and insulting.

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Matt.F said:

Porkins4real said:

Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 1 to 2 hours training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

To be clear the same “Gary-Sue” criticism was made about child Anakin. I think the Mary-Sue thing is misunderstood. It not about putting women down, it is actually about wanting them to have real Characters, rather than idealized ones. It would be progress for women if Mary-Sue characters did not exist - Driver got to play a complex character, Ridley got to play a one-dimensional character. Who got the better role?

I hadn’t heard the ‘Gary Sue’ thing before, and both Anakin TPM and Luke ANH provide consistent parallel examples with Rey… all characters beginning ‘The Hero’s Journey’.

The moderators on this forum are super-engaged and I suspect that misogyny would be quickly suppressed, but I am sure many of the guys on here also read other forums, reddit, facebook and have seen with their own eyes that the ‘Mary Sue’ complaint has been the rallying call for a rather ugly streak of misogyny to come out of the woodwork. Kathleen Kennedy has also been on the receiving end.

For Dre to dismiss it as “anti-feminist nonsense” is really naïve. You don’t have to be a ‘Social Justice Warrior’ to see that it’s a good thing to have female heroes and role models. You just have to be a human being.

I can’t say I am too interested (or not) in Rey being a female. I have all daughters and they love Star Wars, but Ahsoka Tano is by far their favorite Character. Snips it VERY well written and shows a very multidimensional female hero.

I just want Rey to be a good character that makes sense (to me) within the Star Wars universe. To me she doesn’t.

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Warbler said:

There is no evidence that Anakin was using the force in the pod race.

Qui-Gon flat-out states that he does.

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In The Last Jedi- Rey isn’t the main character: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is and Luke is a close second. Its that relationship and the fall out that fuels the plot.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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lovelikewinter said:

In The Last Jedi- Rey isn’t the main character: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is and Luke is a close second. Its that relationship and the fall out that fuels the plot.

I thought there was no fuel in this plot.

You may have a point that Ben Solo really is the protagonist. It felt like Rey was intended to be, but she hasn’t been a very engaging and relatable character. She’s likable enough, but her character development remains opaque. Maybe E9 will bring this full circle (like “Lost”) so her character makes sense.

The blue elephant in the room.

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 (Edited)

Matt.F said:

Porkins4real said:

Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 1 to 2 hours training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

To be clear the same “Gary-Sue” criticism was made about child Anakin. I think the Mary-Sue thing is misunderstood. It not about putting women down, it is actually about wanting them to have real Characters, rather than idealized ones. It would be progress for women if Mary-Sue characters did not exist - Driver got to play a complex character, Ridley got to play a one-dimensional character. Who got the better role?

I hadn’t heard the ‘Gary Sue’ thing before, and both Anakin TPM and Luke ANH provide consistent parallel examples with Rey… all characters beginning ‘The Hero’s Journey’.

The moderators on this forum are super-engaged and I suspect that misogyny would be quickly suppressed, but I am sure many of the guys on here also read other forums, reddit, facebook and have seen with their own eyes that the ‘Mary Sue’ complaint has been the rallying call for a rather ugly streak of misogyny to come out of the woodwork. Kathleen Kennedy has also been on the receiving end.

For Dre to dismiss it as “anti-feminist nonsense” is really naïve. You don’t have to be a ‘Social Justice Warrior’ to see that it’s a good thing to have female heroes and role models. You just have to be a human being.

No, you suggesting I might be criticizing Rey for being a woman is anti-feminist nonsense. I allready stated I’m perfectly fine with a female protagonists or any number of female protagonists. My criticism is against Rey as a character, not as a female character. It’s pretty telling, that you would suggest the people you disagree with have an anti-feminist agenda, or to be less than a human being. That’s a pretty low blow in my book, my friend. There are probably a number of anti-feminists among Rey’s critics, but let’s not paint every critic with that same brush in a weak attempt to win an arguement.

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I haven’t accused anyone on this forum, I have made the point that Mary Sue Rey has been taken up elsewhere in a misogynistic fashion. Do you disagree?

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 (Edited)

Matt.F said:

I haven’t accused anyone on this forum, I have made the point that Mary Sue Rey has been taken up elsewhere in a misogynistic fashion. Do you disagree?

No, I do not disagree. I also do not think it should be some sort of banned term, if the critics using it explain why they think the term is appropriate.

I do have to ask myself why you would drag the whole misogynistic angle into the discussion, if you didn’t suspect it played a role in the discussion?

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Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

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 (Edited)

Matt.F said:

Porkins4real said:

Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 1 to 2 hours training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

To be clear the same “Gary-Sue” criticism was made about child Anakin. I think the Mary-Sue thing is misunderstood. It not about putting women down, it is actually about wanting them to have real Characters, rather than idealized ones. It would be progress for women if Mary-Sue characters did not exist - Driver got to play a complex character, Ridley got to play a one-dimensional character. Who got the better role?

I hadn’t heard the ‘Gary Sue’ thing before

That’s because no one brings it up ever until someone else dares to say it’s not fair/right/appropriate to call Rey a Mary Sue.

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Matt.F said:

Daisy Ridley herself has come out and stated that she believes the ‘Mary Sue’ tag is sexist and inappropriate.

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-mary-sue-rey/

It’s become a meme, and I can see her point, but I can also see the term being used to silence critics.

“So, you didn’t like Rey’s character development? Are you implying Rey is a Mary Sue? You must hate women in lead roles, you misogynist pig!”

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oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

TFA.

Ignores the state Kylo was in though.

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Warbler said:

There is no evidence that Anakin was using the force in the pod race.

You need to watch TPM again (not that I recommend it). Qui-Gon flat out says his quick reflexes are actually a Jedi trait. He’s using it passively, although he obviously doesn’t know it.

JEDIT: Hi dahmaged!

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oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

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Dre, I should be really clear I am not calling you a misogynist. But I am calling you ‘naive’ for thinking that it doesn’t exist in geek culture, and that the character of Rey specifically has brought it out of the woodwork.

See this article… http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-alt-right-female-characters-1201910095/

An alt-right group named Down With Disney’s Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys is taking responsibility for flooding Rotten Tomatoes with negative reviews of the Rian Johnson-directed blockbuster. One of the biggest headlines surrounding the film has been the fan backlash, specifically the movie’s shockingly low Rotten Tomatoes user score. As of this posting, “The Last Jedi” currently has a 54% user score from over 132,000 reviews.

The number is in direct contrast to the film’s A CinemaScore and 92% critic score on the website, which has made some question what exactly is going on. A moderator for the alt-right group has broken his silence to The Huffington Post to claim that the group has been using bots to significantly bring down the film’s Rotten Tomatoes user score.

The moderator explained to The Huffington Post that the group is upset with “Star Wars” for “introducing more female characters into the franchise’s universe.” The group is also not happy that Poe Dameron (Oscar Isaac) has become a “victim of the anti-mansplaining movement” and that characters like Poe and Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill) are in danger of being “turned gay.” The moderator said men should be “reinstated as rulers of society,” and expressed distaste for the way “The Last Jedi” disrespects the franchise’s history.

There were supposed to be a trilogy of books and then some after set in the Legends canon. But [Lucasfilm executives] Kathleen Kennedy and Pablo Hidalgo wanted to pursue their own feminist [sic] agenda,” the moderator wrote to The Huffington Post. “I was never going to like ‘The Last Jedi’ anyway because [it] erases everything the Extended Universe ever did.”

As for his issues with the focus on female characters, the moderator said, “Did you not see everything that came out of ‘Ghostbusters’? That is why. I’m sick and tired of men being portrayed as idiots. There was a time we ruled society and I want to see that again. That is why I voted for Donald Trump.”

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Matt.F said:

Daisy Ridley herself has come out and stated that she believes the ‘Mary Sue’ tag is sexist and inappropriate.

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-mary-sue-rey/

The odd thing is she doesn’t seem to know what Mary Sue means and she is wrong about there being a male equivalent.

An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all. From the article you quote is says

“The term refers to a character that has no flaws and can seemingly accomplish anything without any trouble”

Not sure what the issue is then???

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dahmage said:

Warbler said:

There is no evidence that Anakin was using the force in the pod race.

Qui-Gon flat-out states that he does.

He does? I had forgotten.

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Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

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Porkins4real said:

she is wrong about there being a male equivalent.

No she’s not but this was beaten to absolute death when TFA came out so there’s no reason for anyone to go on about it yet again (including Matt.F who brought it up this time IIRC). It’s all been said already.

But since you asked:

Porkins4real said:

Not sure what the issue is then???

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

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Porkins4real said:

An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.

I actually agree with this. And even though I really like a lot of what Mark Hamill says it’s also why I don’t really care if he actually does feel one way or the other about the Last Jedi.

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TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

she is wrong about there being a male equivalent.

No she’s not but this was beaten to absolute death when TFA came out so there’s no reason for anyone to go on about it yet again.

The term ‘Gary Stu’ has been around for at least 10 years.

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Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.