The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 10

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

darthrush said:

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

Yeah, it even manages to subvert the fact that it’s a middle chapter, and that’s wonderful. I am so glad that there are few obvious paths forward in this galaxy, because that means that whatever comes next will be different than any previous Star Wars movie.

It could go anywhere, with any time jump. There’s room for our heroes to have years of adventures before facing the final chapter.

Han’s death thus only becomes a stepping stone for Kylo’s ascension to the throne.

And what’s the problem with that? Han’s death and Snoke’s death play two massively important roles for Kylo Ren. Two times in which he has an seemingly impossible choice to make but he ultimately chooses to “kill the past” and ascend further into the dark side. It is interesting and new, and both deaths are done very well. More than anything, the old characters should be there to serve as foils to our new character’s.

I didn’t think Snoke death was done well. Snoke was made to wear the idiot hat, much like the Jedi were by Lucas in the PT. Kylo didn’t get where he was by cunning and his abilities, but because Snoke’s a moron.

A moron? Snoke’s plan made a good deal of sense from his angle and his overconfidence and overreaching of emotional abuse of Kylo was his downfall. That’s not stupidity.

Snoke desired to pit both Rey and Kylo between each other. To see them struggle with what side they wanted each other to be on and see the chaos to come of it. Snoke’s dialogue about seeing Kylo’s every intent, and feeling “no more conflict, but resolve” is great cause Snoke is completely right. He senses a complete feeling of no conflict, but is too blinded to realize who it is directed at. Snoke thought that abusing and ridiculing Kylo would drive him towards further greatness. That is also true. He was simply too blinded to realize it would involve his downfall.

Like another user said, Kylo achieved here what Vader originally wanted in ESB. And it was executed incredibly well with smart, foreshadowing dialogue.

Well to me if a character first claims that Kylo is split to the core, and then in an instant believes he’s no longer conflicted, and cut down like a chump, he’s a moron.

If I recall, he thought he was split to the core in one scene and then it was only when he had brought Rey to him, that he sensed the resolve. Which would make sense to me since you see the slow build up of his and Rey relationship alongside the increased abuse and frustration with Snoke.

He mentioned Kylo was conflicted multiple times. He was also the person to connect Rey and Kylo across the galaxy, so he must have continually felt Kylo’s anger, frustration, and doubts. If he can connect Rey and Kylo across vast distances, he must also have felt Kylo couldn’t kill his mother.

He set the connection and of course he sensed conflict but it was only after a ton of interaction with Rey, and inner turmoil, that Kylo had finally felt resolved. And you can’t blame Snoke for becoming too overconfident while still showing his power by knowing Kylo’s state of mind but maybe not the exact contents of it.

In all honesty, your criticism here would apply to Return of the Jedi as well. That whole third act is the Emperor saying how much Vader is on his side and it is only at the very end that Vader turns against the Emperor.

Not at all. Vader actively tries to kill Luke before the Emperor’s eyes, after which Vader is seriously wounded. Vader has given the Emperor little reason to doubt his loyalty. Add to this that in order to save Luke, Vader would have to sacrifice himself, which he does. Kylo just stands there. He’s done nothing to suggest he’s willing to kill Rey, or show resolve. Having to kill Rey was presented as a sort of test for Kylo. Well if it’s a test, he might fail, which Snoke should have known.

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not really happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still pretty much in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child. Neither should reasonably have mastered the Force, as Kylo has been given no further training, and Rey’s been given three lessons. Yet, they now are the sole live representatives of the light and dark side of the Force. Yoda told Luke to pass on what he had learned, but he has done no such thing, but we somehow still have to believe Rey’s going to be the first in a new line of Jedi. I know some will argue, Luke could come back to train Rey as a Force ghost, but then why didn’t Obi-Wan and Yoda do the same? Why did Luke have to pass on anything, if Obi-Wan and Yoda can train students from the grave. It just makes very little sense, and dilutes the mythology, in my opinion of course.

I don’t hate TLJ, and as a stand alone film I think it’s overall entertaining, but as part of the Star Wars saga it just feels disconnected to me, even to it’s immediate predecessor.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not reaaly happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child.

See this is exactly the kind of take that I just can’t reconcile with my own.

First of all, I thought it was a perfect follow up to TFA in those regards. Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation. Rey’s parents reveal is honestly the only thing that made sense, and is a conclusion I landed on after a few viewings of TFA (not just that, thematically it’s so much better than any alternative).

As for Rey and Kylo, I don’t know what to say. I don’t think Rey’s a “perfect hero” in TFA and I think she’s even less that in TLJ. Kylo’s status as a “big evil child” is part of what makes him so compelling as a villain. And I just don’t really get the idea that they’re still in the same place.

That’s it, honestly. I just truly don’t get a lot of the criticisms I’ve seen. I wonder if it’s a matter of expectations. I went in with a completely open mind to whatever story Rian wanted to tell. It’s understandable to me why someone/anyone with specific expectations for how this story should go would be disappointed.

As for IX, I’m incredibly excited. With TLJ they were sort of boxed in to a certain extent, but with IX, beyond obviously finding satisfying conclusions for the characters, the story can pretty much go anywhere. I love that.

Neither should reasonably have mastered the Force, as Kylo has been given no further training, and Rey’s been given three lessons. Yet, they now are the sole live representatives of the light and dark side of the Force. Yoda told Luke to pass on what he had learned, but he has done no such thing, but we somehow still have to believe Rey’s going to be the first in a new line of Jedi. I know some will argue, Luke could come back to train Rey as a Force ghost, but then why didn’t Obi-Wan and Yoda do the same? Why did Luke have to pass on anything, if Obi-Wan and Yoda can train students from the grave. It just makes very little sense, and dilutes the mythology, in my opinion of course.

I think the first thing you have to realize is that the rules around the Force are constantly evolving (and always have) and that how much training one needs before they’re a “Jedi” is really anyone’s guess.

But, beyond that, I don’t think I’d say at all that either has mastered the Force. And I think we put too much stock into the idea that you need a teacher to be trained, and I think that’s the point here. A teacher is helpful, up to a certain point. Rey doesn’t need Luke (or his bloodline). Kylo doesn’t need Snoke (or his backstory). They can forge their own paths. This is their story and their future.

DominicCobb said:

Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation.

What about a horribly disfigured and extremely powerful force user that’s the leader of a mysterious new group that took the place of the dead Empire and somehow influenced Ben Solo to turn to the dark side (which everyone in TFA and TLJ kinda acknowledges but there’s still no explanation as to how that happened) and murder his father, fellow students, and attempt to murder his uncle DOESN’T invite speculation?

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not reaaly happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child.

See this is exactly the kind of take that I just can’t reconcile with my own.

First of all, I thought it was a perfect follow up to TFA in those regards. Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation. Rey’s parents reveal is honestly the only thing that made sense, and is a conclusion I landed on after a few viewings of TFA (not just that, thematically it’s so much better than any alternative).

Well I disagree. Rey was able to do things in TFA that previously required a lot of training, a trend that continues in this film. That in my view requires some sort of explanation, and just being the child of some nobody’s doesn’t cut it for me.

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

I think the first thing you have to realize is that the rules around the Force are constantly evolving (and always have) and that how much training one needs before they’re a “Jedi” is really anyone’s guess.

But, beyond that, I don’t think I’d say at all that either has mastered the Force. And I think we put too much stock into the idea that you need a teacher to be trained, and I think that’s the point here. A teacher is helpful, up to a certain point. Rey doesn’t need Luke (or his bloodline). Kylo doesn’t need Snoke (or his backstory). They can forge their own paths. This is their story and their future.

Why do I have to realize? All the films leading up to TFA shows Force users need a significant amount of training to master the Force. Even in TFA Snoke suggests Kylo needs more training. I think future directors should respect the in-universe rules, and when they don’t, provide explanations. I’m not fond of a universe rife with inconsistencies.

JediExile said:

DominicCobb said:

Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation.

What about a horribly disfigured and extremely powerful force user that’s the leader of a mysterious new group that took the place of the dead Empire and somehow influenced Ben Solo to turn to the dark side (which everyone in TFA and TLJ kinda acknowledges but there’s still no explanation as to how that happened) and murder his father, fellow students, and attempt to murder his uncle DOESN’T invite speculation?

Sorry, “invite” was the wrong word, I think “demand” or “require” was closer to what I meant.

DominicCobb said:

JediExile said:

DominicCobb said:

Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation.

What about a horribly disfigured and extremely powerful force user that’s the leader of a mysterious new group that took the place of the dead Empire and somehow influenced Ben Solo to turn to the dark side (which everyone in TFA and TLJ kinda acknowledges but there’s still no explanation as to how that happened) and murder his father, fellow students, and attempt to murder his uncle DOESN’T invite speculation?

Sorry, “invite” was the wrong word, I think “demand” or “require” was closer to what I meant.

Well, that’s up to each of us to decide. You may feel it doesn’t require an explanation, which is perfectly fine, but others like myself may feel differently.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not reaaly happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child.

See this is exactly the kind of take that I just can’t reconcile with my own.

First of all, I thought it was a perfect follow up to TFA in those regards. Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation. Rey’s parents reveal is honestly the only thing that made sense, and is a conclusion I landed on after a few viewings of TFA (not just that, thematically it’s so much better than any alternative).

Well I disagree. Rey was able to do things in TFA that previously required a lot of training, a trend that continues in this film. That in my view requires some sort of explanation, and just being the child of some nobody’s doesn’t cut it for me.

I don’t even know how to engage with this. “Some nobody,” the force is for everybody, that’s the whole point.

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

DrDre said:

I think the first thing you have to realize is that the rules around the Force are constantly evolving (and always have) and that how much training one needs before they’re a “Jedi” is really anyone’s guess.

But, beyond that, I don’t think I’d say at all that either has mastered the Force. And I think we put too much stock into the idea that you need a teacher to be trained, and I think that’s the point here. A teacher is helpful, up to a certain point. Rey doesn’t need Luke (or his bloodline). Kylo doesn’t need Snoke (or his backstory). They can forge their own paths. This is their story and their future.

Why do I have to realize? All the films leading up to TFA shows Force users need a significant amount of training to master the Force. Even in TFA Snoke suggests Kylo needs more training. I think future directors should respect the in-universe rules, and when they don’t, provide explanations. I’m not fond of a universe rife with inconsistencies.

Eh, not quite. Luke can do a decent bit before he gets to Dagobah. He’s there for what, a week? Then returns a year later only to be told his training’s all done. It’s only the prequels that imply that being a Jedi is something that takes a lifetime to learn.

LuckyGungan2001 said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

I don’t see why people are constantly complaining about TLJ like “it breaks what TFA set up!” or some such. That’s what I liked about it—the plot twists.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that. There is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia).

The one real negative of the film is… Yoda. They got the Yoda voice actor from The Clone Wars (whom I hate), and used either another Creepy Puppet Yoda or a CGI adaption of it.

it took the Rebel Alliance five yours to take control after the battle of Endor.

Wait a sec, no it didn’t. It’s been established that it took less than a year for the Empire to back down.

Five years, a year, who cares. The FO took instant control of the galaxy. It took them zero years, which is unrealistic, especially considering SKB was blown up along with a large part of their resources.

DrDre said:

LuckyGungan2001 said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

I don’t see why people are constantly complaining about TLJ like “it breaks what TFA set up!” or some such. That’s what I liked about it—the plot twists.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that. There is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia).

The one real negative of the film is… Yoda. They got the Yoda voice actor from The Clone Wars (whom I hate), and used either another Creepy Puppet Yoda or a CGI adaption of it.

it took the Rebel Alliance five yours to take control after the battle of Endor.

Wait a sec, no it didn’t. It’s been established that it took less than a year for the Empire to back down.

Five years, a year, who cares. The FO took instant control of the galaxy. It took them zero years, which is unrealistic, especially considering SKB was blown up along with a large part of their resources.

This is something that could change, of course, but I didn’t think they had necessarily taken complete control of the galaxy. To use a random analogy, the galaxy/Senate was a piñata. The First Order broke it open and is trying to take all the candy. But I don’t think there is any reason to be certain that they’ve actually accomplished that yet.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.

I really liked TFA, and it’s partly for this reason, that I’m not reaaly happy with RJ rebooting much of JJ’s setups. All the mystery surrounding Rey and Snoke has turned to dust. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and some shocks thrown in the mix, but ultimately I feel both Rey and Kylo are still in the same place they were at the end of TFA. Rey’s still the perfect hero, and Kylo’s still a big evil child.

See this is exactly the kind of take that I just can’t reconcile with my own.

First of all, I thought it was a perfect follow up to TFA in those regards. Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation. Rey’s parents reveal is honestly the only thing that made sense, and is a conclusion I landed on after a few viewings of TFA (not just that, thematically it’s so much better than any alternative).

Well I disagree. Rey was able to do things in TFA that previously required a lot of training, a trend that continues in this film. That in my view requires some sort of explanation, and just being the child of some nobody’s doesn’t cut it for me.

I don’t even know how to engage with this. “Some nobody,” the force is for everybody, that’s the whole point.

Everybody that puts the effort and time in, and has a good teacher. You don’t just magically get these powers. Even before the PT Lucas has written it takes many years to master the Force.

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two, prophesies and such. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons and spacecships emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil. The rebellion is reduced to a bunch of people, that can fit in the Millenium Falcon, with zero connections to the rest of the galaxy.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

JediExile said:

DominicCobb said:

Snoke was only a big mystery because fans proposed endless theories - there’s nothing in the film itself that invites such rampant speculation.

What about a horribly disfigured and extremely powerful force user that’s the leader of a mysterious new group that took the place of the dead Empire and somehow influenced Ben Solo to turn to the dark side (which everyone in TFA and TLJ kinda acknowledges but there’s still no explanation as to how that happened) and murder his father, fellow students, and attempt to murder his uncle DOESN’T invite speculation?

Sorry, “invite” was the wrong word, I think “demand” or “require” was closer to what I meant.

Well, that’s up to each of us to decide. You may feel it doesn’t require an explanation, which is perfectly fine, but others like myself may feel differently.

Yes, fair enough. I 100% believe it didn’t require an explanation, but I will say I do think they could have put in one could have added to the story. To me, the only Snoke theory that made sense was that he was some sort of semi-ancient Sith who went into exile and was bidding his time for the right moment to come back. I do think something like this could have helped the film, but only in terms of what it means for Kylo Ren. When he kills Snoke and says “let the past die,” there would undoubtedly be more weight behind it if we were actually completely certain that Snoke was, in fact, a Sith, and not just kinda think that that’s the likely explanation.

DrDre said:

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil.

There was no more motivation behind the Empire than that. There was a sense of history, sure - they were once the Old Republic. Well the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire (and there’s Ben Solo, Luke’s Jedi). I don’t know if you can really count the Sith in the PT because that was never even vaguely explained (which, to me, is fine). Kylo’s motivations in TFA and TLJ are obvious and make perfect sense for the character. I do hope he thinks bigger in IX though.

andyw715 said:

I’m still trying to figure out why I’d want to watch episode IX.

I’m on the same boat, but I’m guessing that it’s for very different reasons. This is a tough act to follow, and I doubt a gun for hire could do it justice.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil.

There was no more motivation behind the Empire than that. There was a sense of history, sure - they were once the Old Republic. Well the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire. I don’t know if you can really count the Sith in the PT because that was never even vaguely explained (which, to me, is fine). Kylo’s motivations in TFA and TLJ are obvious and make perfect sense for the character. I do hope he thinks bigger in IX though.

Yeah, but it’s more than that. The Empire consisted of many worlds, including the later named central system of Coruscant, home of the mysterious Emperor. The Alliance consisted of many worlds, with senators secretly conspiring to help them. It was a vast galaxy of peoples and allegiences. As I said there were many hidden layers in both space and time.

The FO is just a bunch of space ships, and a number of faceless enemies led by two youngsters. They don’t even have a home world, which as far as we know was SKB. The rebellion now fits on a single star ship. There are no hidden layers, no sense of space and time. Snoke and Rey’s mysterious background provided those hidden layers, stuff to speculate about. TLJ snuffed that out. That’s quite depressing to me.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil.

There was no more motivation behind the Empire than that. There was a sense of history, sure - they were once the Old Republic. Well the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire. I don’t know if you can really count the Sith in the PT because that was never even vaguely explained (which, to me, is fine). Kylo’s motivations in TFA and TLJ are obvious and make perfect sense for the character. I do hope he thinks bigger in IX though.

Yeah, but it’s more than that. The Empire consisted of many worlds, including the later named central system of Coruscant, home of the mysterious Emperor. The Alliance consisted of many worlds, with senators secretly conspiring to help them. It was a vast galaxy of peoples and allegiences. As I said there were many hidden layers in both space and time.

The FO is just a bunch of space ships, and a number of faceless enemies led by two youngsters. They don’t even have a home world, which as far as we know was SKB.

Yeah, Coruscant isn’t a part of the OT. If you want a more in depth and nuanced look at the makeup of the FO, it’s out there. Same goes for the Resistance.

There are no hidden layers, no sense of space and time. Snoke and Rey’s mysterious background provided those hidden layers, stuff to speculate about. TLJ snuffed that out. That’s quite depressing to me.

I just plain don’t get that reaction.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

They’ve also completely rebooted the Empire vs rebels scenario, with the Resistance now even being called rebels. Snoke was the only character with some history beyond the FO, and might have provided motivations that separates the FO from the Empire, but that’s all gone by the wayside. There are now only new faces part of an organisation without much of a history or an identity. It’s this sense of history and hidden layers that made Star Wars appealing to me, but now all the history and layers have been peeled away.

Thing is, it’s not Snoke’s First Order anymore, it’s Kylo’s. And yeah, the history’s been stripped away, but, again, that’s the point. It’s not about Vader or the Empire anymore. This is his and I’m excited to see where else he takes it.

It’s not about Vader or the Emperor. It’s about a sense of history, and motivations. With the OT there was the history of the old Republic, Vader, the Jedi. With the PT there was the history of the Sith, the rule if two. The FO has no history or identity. It’s just a bunch of faceless goons emulating the Empire, led by Kylo and Hux, neither of whom have any motivations aside from wanting to be evil.

There was no more motivation behind the Empire than that. There was a sense of history, sure - they were once the Old Republic. Well the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire. I don’t know if you can really count the Sith in the PT because that was never even vaguely explained (which, to me, is fine). Kylo’s motivations in TFA and TLJ are obvious and make perfect sense for the character. I do hope he thinks bigger in IX though.

Yeah, but it’s more than that. The Empire consisted of many worlds, including the later named central system of Coruscant, home of the mysterious Emperor. The Alliance consisted of many worlds, with senators secretly conspiring to help them. It was a vast galaxy of peoples and allegiences. As I said there were many hidden layers in both space and time.

The FO is just a bunch of space ships, and a number of faceless enemies led by two youngsters. They don’t even have a home world, which as far as we know was SKB.

Yeah, Coruscant isn’t a part of the OT. If you want a more in depth and nuanced look at the makeup of the FO, it’s out there. Same goes for the Resistance.

I don’t care about some sort of EU. It should be in the films. ANH speaks of the Emperor, the Imperial Senate, hidden layers. Coruscant didn’t need to be named, because we knew the Emperor and Senate needed to be seated somewhere. In TESB we meet the mysterious Emperor, dark side master of Vader, hidden layers. TESB opened up the possibility of a whole new backstory of Luke’s father, and the rise of the Empire. There are many more examples of places and stuff mentioned happening off-screen suggesting a much larger universe, and history. TLJ has none of that. What you see is what you get, and it even manages to remove or invalidate the mysteries and hidden layers provided by TFA, or seemingly provided by TLJ itself. The New Republic is gone. Snoke is gone. The mystery surrounding Rey is gone. The mystery of the first Jedi Temple is reduced to scenery. It burns the old Jedi texts for crying out loud, as a statement that the ancient history of the Jedi is boring. Kylo’s motivations for struggling with the dark side, and his parents is gone. He was allready on his way to being bad, and Luke sent him over the edge. He might as well have been any random student, because overall the fact that he’s Han and Leia’s son is pretty irrelevant to the story or his further development as a character.

(removed post from the ranking thread)

DominicCobb said:

I’ll never understand the Marvel joke criticism thing. First of all, what’s wrong with having jokes in your movies? I’d be quickly bored with Marvel movies if they didn’t. Second, just because there’s a lot of humor doesn’t automatically mean it’s the same kind of humor as Marvel tends to do.

Well I feel it is and I never felt this humor was necessary. It’s cool you enjoyed it, wish I did. Some part and ideas are truly beautiful (Johnson can give in ONE SHOT any character their characterization: the man is good !) but the lack of serious - and of consistency as well - of many elements (even within good parts) was playing against the movie (IMHO for sure). I respect TLJ for being radical, daring, and in a way “new” (even if it’s more The Two Towers with a BSG subplot). I just… don’t like it that much. And I really believed I would love it 'cause it’s a very interesting movie nonetheless.

(to all: just stop attacking people because they don’t share your hate of the PT and your love for the Disney movies. Seriously I mean it. Stay cool)

edit: as for the ranking, both AOTC and TLJ are author movies. One might be better than the other one but in the end I don’t like both. I just feel that between a mad artist and an artist getting mad with material which is not his, I would always prefer the work of the mad artist. Bad SW by Lucas is for me more interesting than bad SW by anybody else. But I could switch in my ranking AOTC with TLJ anytime, wouldn’t change anything to me.

But the books are in the drawler of the Falcon at the end… (what does it mean ? I have no idea… but the entire movie is like that: constantly changing its mind about everything)

(pretty sure Rian Johnson hates JJ Abrams by the way, it’s even obvious)

(all the more reason I wish I loved his take on the saga…)