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The Kenobi Movie Show (Spoilers) — Page 60

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henzINNIT said:

Jedi aren’t pacifists. They carry deadly weapons. We can expect them to be heroic, and not the aggressors, but they maim and kill when it’s deemed necessary. I get the religious qualities Lucas wove in there, but I feel like we can overthink the rules for an action series where villains die by the hundreds and thousands.

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Telling Luke not to bring weapons into a vision quest is one thing, but you don’t ‘face your fears’ by confronting armed and dangerous evil overlords with no intent to stop them. The villains intended to turn Luke or kill him. Obi-Wan makes it clear that he believes there is no saving Vader. It’s a crazy test to send someone to face a monster, most likely in a fight to the death, just to resist the temptation of evil.

The notion of a simple, flowery personal growth lesson for Luke doesn’t make sense to me. If it was truly only about resisting darkness, why didn’t Luke already pass that test in Empire? He faced Vader, was badly injured, spirit crushed, learned a shocking revelation about his family legacy and still rejected Vader’s offer, choosing to let himself fall rather than taking evil’s hand. Surely that would have been enough if this confrontation was just about Luke’s demons.

The jedi wouldn’t have instructed Luke bring regular people with him to confront these guys. Of course they’re not arranging a ‘special forces’ mission; facing Vader and his boss would mean certain death for untrained people. That doesn’t prove your point at all. Luke wasn’t directly involved in destroying the Death Star, but there’s no reason to assume the villains would have just sat there and exploded without Luke’s appearance. He ensured they died in that battle, which was far more important than destroying another space station.

This may have to do with the nuances of storytelling. I believe George would say Luke’s mission was always to face Vader and redeem him, thus defeating the Emperor, at least in principle.
But having Obi Wan or Yoda say that directly would have taken away from the scene itself in which he almost succumbs to his fear and kills Vader.

The “You’ve failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me” moment is very powerful.

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 (Edited)

Obi-Wan Kenobi Composer Natalie Holt Breaks Down Scoring The Show’s Biggest Scenes - at slashfilm

I thought this was an interesting interview, and it seems there were a few changes for Natalie Holt to adopt to for the show. At first it appeared they weren’t be allowed to use any of the old themes, and then they were allowed to use some of John Williams themes, but just for episode 6. It is a good read on what the composer was aiming for with most of the episodes in the series with the story onscreen, how director Deborah Chow had wanted a more modern or minimalist approach for the music for it, and the collaboration for the music in episode 6.

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ADR14NAT1ON said:

yotsuya said:

ADR14NAT1ON said:

I think that sort of highlights the problem with the Jedi and their flaws. I don’t blame them, though, Vader committed mass genocide. I don’t think OW and Yoda were bad or anything, but it just goes to show how Luke was different, he was the only one who could break through to his father. A better kind of Jedi. (Kinda precisely the reason why I disliked his portrayal in TLJ)

Very interesting discussion. But why is it taking place in this thread?

In TESB and ROTJ he is young and idealistic. That does tend to make one the best. In TLJ he is old and jaded and that is a valid look at the same character. I liked how pieces of his earlier portrayal in ANH and TESB peeked through.

I understand it makes sense in the real world that people change, but narratively it has to be conveyed and developed better. Luke had a very strong character arc in which he grew as a person and as a Jedi. In the world of story, seeing his defining character trait and moment (him sparing Vader in hopes of redeeming him) cast aside and forgotten this easily is wrong. Specially considering that he’s this way since before the start of the movie. We don’t see a transition into this version of Luke that we can get behind, the flashbacks just show him already being different (deeming Ben gone and ATTEMPTING MURDER). Therefore, it feels like a betrayal to his character. IMO.

Why are we going by Kylo Ren’s version here? We are presented with 3 version and Rey makes Luke tell her the true one. In that, he acts on instinct to the evil growing in his nephew, draws and ignites his saber, but does nothing further. But Ben wakes and defends. Luke was always quick to action and even in ROTJ, took a moment to do the right thing. So I don’t see any problem with the way he told it to Rey the second time. It fits his personality. But because it wasn’t the first version we hear, it seems to be the last considered. Luke never tried to kill him, only drew and ignited his saber at the danger he sensed. And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct. And then when Kylo Ren destroys the new school and kills all the students (or do some follow him to the dark side?), Luke is crushed. Crushed that his student did this. That his nephew did this. That he triggered his nephew to do this. So he leaves and ends up in self-exile on Ach-to. This all fits with the Luke I grew up with in the OT. It shows an amazing understanding of human frailty in the face of unspeakable tragedy. That he loses that stable Jedi veneer and reverts back to his whiny farm boy traits is epic in its ties to mythology and the fallen older hero as well as realistic human reactions. Sure some don’t like to see their hero come to this, but he is not the hero of the ST. He is a side character there to aid the success of the main characters.

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 (Edited)

And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct.

“Luke, this challenge with the training remote may seem silly, but there may come a time when you feel the need to sneak into your nephew’s room while he’s sleeping, probe his mind, and draw your laser sword over his unconscious body. And this will help prepare you for that.”

The whole chain of events surrounding the destruction of Luke’s temple is nonsensical. “Oh, my uncle apparently just tried to kill me, so I’m gonna proceed to murder all my friends.” Then, Luke just blames the Jedi as a whole for his mistake and screws off. He doesn’t contact Han or Leia. He doesn’t frantically go after Ben to try to right the situation. He just leaves to go die.

I fail to see how character regression is “epic.” And despite having different protagonists, these movies are still sequels to the OT, and meant to tell a continuing story. Whatever creative choices they make with the characters in the sequels will retroactively affect the original stories. TLJ solidifies that Luke was always just a loser on the inside who briefly became a strong jedi before returning back to his “true” whiny self.

Edit: It’d probably be best if we returned to talking about the show.

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Servii said:

And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct.

“Luke, this challenge with the training remote may seem silly, but there may come a time when you feel the need to sneak into your nephew’s room while he’s sleeping, probe his mind, and draw your laser sword over his unconscious body. And this will help prepare you for that.”

The whole chain of events surrounding the destruction of Luke’s temple is nonsensical. “Oh, my uncle apparently just tried to kill me, so I’m gonna proceed to murder all my friends.” Then, Luke just blames the Jedi as a whole for his mistake and screws off. He doesn’t contact Han or Leia. He doesn’t frantically go after Ben to try to right the situation. He just leaves to go die.

I fail to see how character regression is “epic.” And despite having different protagonists, these movies are still sequels to the OT, and meant to tell a continuing story. Whatever creative choices they make with the characters in the sequels will retroactively affect the original stories. TLJ solidifies that Luke was always just a loser on the inside who briefly became a strong jedi before returning back to his “true” whiny self.

Edit: It’d probably be best if we returned to talking about the show.

This relates to the show because Luke does the same thing in the ST that Kenobi and Yoda do between the PT and OT.

And I see how you are misreading what Luke did. You are jumping from Kylo Ren leveling the new Jedi Temple to Luke on Ach-to. He didn’t go straight there. He went on a quest for an explanation. He had to find Ach-to before he could go there. And his quest led him to the conclusion that he had followed the Republic era Jedi in a failed method of training.

Also, look at Anakin. There he was, fighting the Clone War, serving the Jedi, on the council, and then he uncovers that Palpatine is a Sith and shares it and then suddenly he turns and goes to Palpatine in order to save him. the next thing he is destroying the Jedi including the younglings. So Anakin’s fall to the dark side has a long build up and a very sudden fall. Ben’s fall is similar. He had Snoke influencing him for years and then Luke ignites his light saber and Ben lets loose and becomes Kylo Ren and destroys his fellow students. So the parallels of an abrupt turn and suddenly killing those he was just days before allied with lines up. And with Palpatine behind both, it makes sense that they are so parallel. Just with Anakin you have the need to save Padme and the weakness of his attachments and with Ben you have a troubled youth sent to his uncle for training so in him you have an even more precarious balance. Everything is there is the films. You don’t have to look elsewhere or make up theories. The data is there if you just look for it.

I think the choices made in TLJ and TROS really tie back to the PT and create that poetry Lucas likes and creates a truly epic end to this very mythic saga. I think all the side stories we are getting just fill more in the blank areas. Even seemingly distant stories are linking back to the main saga story. Kenobi gives us the parallel to Luke and how Kenobi overcame the state he was in at the end of ROTS. To me it is epic and in keeping with the mythic heroes journey (including when the old hero passes off to the new hero).

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This relates to the show because Luke does the same thing in the ST that Kenobi and Yoda do between the PT and OT.

The difference is that Obi-Wan and Yoda were actively being hunted by the ruling galactic government. They had no choice but to stay hidden and bide their time. Meanwhile, Luke had plenty of better choices he could have made in that moment.

And his quest led him to the conclusion that he had followed the Republic era Jedi in a failed method of training.

That’s precisely the problem. Why did Luke stick to the failed old methods of Jedi training? He had no reason to do that, and given his unusual life experiences as a Jedi and his strong connections to his friends, he would know better than to just recreate the old Jedi Order with all its old flaws. It’s out of character, and only serves to brush aside Luke’s Jedi Order as unimportant for the sake of propping up the ST’s soft reboot of the franchise.

Also, look at Anakin.

Anakin’s sudden switch to hating all the Jedi and murdering them all is one of the most criticized aspects of the prequels. Though at least that had some sort of context for his sudden turn. The ST just did a worse, even more rushed version of that.

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yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

Just look at what Obi-wan says in 2 duels with Anakin/Vader. “I will do what I must.” That is what Obi-wan expects of Luke in confronting Vader and Palpatine.

  1. That was made after Return of the Jedi.
  2. Return of the Jedi is long after that part in the story, after they’ve already tried to kill them and failed. In fact it makes even less sense for them to tell Luke to go kill both Vader and Palpatine when they couldn’t, and Luke is barely trained.
  3. Killing Vader and Palpatine has no effect on the Battle of Endor, so it’s not about restoring the Republic or anything.
  4. Obi Wan doesn’t even “do what [he] must” in the Obi Wan show!

Well, if you are going to ignore the PT, not much I can say. I feel the PT is crucial to understanding the motives of a Jedi.

But here is the key.

YODA
Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

BEN
Patience.

LUKE
And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA
If you honor what they fight for…yes!

BEN
If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

LUKE
I understand.
Artoo, fire up the converters.

Artoo whistles a happy reply.

BEN
Luke, don’t give in to hate - that leads to the dark side.

YODA
Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.

LUKE
I will. And I’ll return. I promise.

Note it is about conquering Vader and the Emperor, not killing them. Don’t give into hate, that leads to the Dark Side.

And then in ROTJ

LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?

YODA
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

and

YODA
Remember, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

So, did they expect Luke to Kill Vader? If he had to yes. But showing compassion is part of being a Jedi. Compassion is why neither Obi-wan nor Luke killed Vader. If killing him comes from fear, anger, or aggression, they it would be wrong to give into that.

But the PT makes it even more clear that a Jedi should not just indiscriminately kill. Anakin knew this when he had Count Dooku at his mercy. But Palpatine egged him on to do it.

So we come back to Obi-wan saying he would do what he must and the wording of what Obi-wan and Yoda said to Luke. They did not say to go and kill Vader. They said he must face him. That Vader and the Emperor needed to be conquered. They expected him to go, act like a Jedi, and do what he must to achieve that goal. If that included killing them, he had to be willing to do so. If that meant showing compassion, then that would be what they expected. Obi-wan was ready to kill Vader if he had to, but he never had to. He defeated Vader without having to kill him. Leaving his redemption for his son to achieve.

I agree with this except insofar as it applies to the new show. When he says “I will so what I must” it’s a direct reference to when he says that in ROTS, which is itself related to when Yoda says “destroy the Sith, we must.” It makes sense for them to do that at that stage of things in both cases.

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ADR14NAT1ON said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Would it be fair to say, then, that Yoda’s and Obi Wan’s views on guiding Luke are different but complementary? I think it makes sense, they disagree a lot in the movies. First about Luke being trained in the first place, then about him being their only hope. “No, there is another.”

Luke proved to Yoda that he was worthy of training and his view of sending him to fight Vader is more in line with it being a fear-facing mission, based on what’s shown in Empire, like you are saying. But I feel Obi Wan really wanted him to be ready to kill Vader because he felt he was beyond redemption. Maybe even Obi Wan realized this and that is why he was so ready to die in ANH, he knew Luke was better off with Yoda training him. I wish the show had explored this more in depth.

I think that’s possible but generally when Yoda and Ben disagree they do it vocally onscreen. Maybe they didn’t because Yoda was in the middle of dying lol

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I’ve always found describing Luke as ‘trying to kill Ben’ to be a misrepresentation. Luke tried to kill Vader in ROTJ after being goaded into it, and backed down shortly after. Luke merely considered killing Ben in TLJ, after experiencing a harrowing vision of the destruction the boy would cause, and only for a moment before coming to his senses. These instances seem pretty consistent to me, the latter event being a more extreme but logical extension of the struggle Luke (and jedi generally) had to face. If Luke had actually tried to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead.

OWK puts Ben in similar positions but I’m not sure it knows exactly what to do with him. At the opening of the show, Ben himself is weary and has allowed his abilities to diminish, which is understandable emotionally yet at the same time seems dedicated to protect and train Luke at the earlist convenience. These seem highly contradictory. Once Ben has gotten his groove back, he’s able to defeat Vader and accept Anakin is gone, but will still not put him out of his misery, and is no longer concerned with Luke’s training. Probably a symptom of finding an arc between III and IV when there didn’t need to be one.

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henzINNIT said:

Jedi aren’t pacifists. They carry deadly weapons. We can expect them to be heroic, and not the aggressors, but they maim and kill when it’s deemed necessary. I get the religious qualities Lucas wove in there, but I feel like we can overthink the rules for an action series where villains die by the hundreds and thousands.

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Telling Luke not to bring weapons into a vision quest is one thing, but you don’t ‘face your fears’ by confronting armed and dangerous evil overlords with no intent to stop them. The villains intended to turn Luke or kill him. Obi-Wan makes it clear that he believes there is no saving Vader. It’s a crazy test to send someone to face a monster, most likely in a fight to the death, just to resist the temptation of evil.

The notion of a simple, flowery personal growth lesson for Luke doesn’t make sense to me. If it was truly only about resisting darkness, why didn’t Luke already pass that test in Empire? He faced Vader, was badly injured, spirit crushed, learned a shocking revelation about his family legacy and still rejected Vader’s offer, choosing to let himself fall rather than taking evil’s hand. Surely that would have been enough if this confrontation was just about Luke’s demons.

The jedi wouldn’t have instructed Luke bring regular people with him to confront these guys. Of course they’re not arranging a ‘special forces’ mission; facing Vader and his boss would mean certain death for untrained people. That doesn’t prove your point at all. Luke wasn’t directly involved in destroying the Death Star, but there’s no reason to assume the villains would have just sat there and exploded without Luke’s appearance. He ensured they died in that battle, which was far more important than destroying another space station.

It’s not like they’re not expecting a fight, including a fight to the death. Clearly they taught Luke how to make his own lightsaber, they trained him how to fight, and Ben does tell him he needs to be able to kill his father. It’s just that that wasn’t the point of telling him to go. He’s there to become a Jedi, not just an assassin.

He absolutely failed in Empire, that was the point. He fell directly into Vader’s trap, he lost the physical fight, and he was consumed by fear. He wasn’t ready for the revelation that Vader was his father, which ties directly to his fears in the vision earlier. We can blame Ben and Yoda for not telling him but it’s unclear if he could have handled it anyway. You’re right that he turned away from Vader’s offer but he was only in that position in the first place because of his own folly, and the only way for him to turn away was to try to commit suicide.
To truly become a Jedi he had to master himself and his emotions, not just his combat potential. Him being crushed and rebuilt is exactly why he has to be tested again.

Actually there is reason to think that. The Emperor is overconfident and thinks that their trap is foolproof. They have the (FULLY OPERATIONAL!) Death Star, and an entire fleet of star destroyers with the Executor, and a planetary shield around the Death Star as well, and a legion of stormtroopers to guard the shield. In any case that’s still the safest place they could be during the space battle. (The other place that Vader would be, would be on the Executor, which also gets blown up.) If the Jedi’s hope for Luke’s ultimate destiny was just to delay them there so that they could be killed on the Death Star that would also be pretty unsatisfying.

My point isn’t the specific mechanics of how they would be killed, it’s that the Jedi weren’t interested in that either. If Luke was really just there to kill them he could have done a much better job in an X-Wing, blowing up the second Death Star just like he blew up the first. No lightsaber or additional Jedi training required. In fact when Luke shows up to the mission he realizes “I’m endangering the mission, I shouldn’t have come,” because it makes Vader more aware of what’s going on.

There is something specific involved with Luke being tested by going after Vader and the Emperor, face-to-face, and it’s not just to kill them.

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henzINNIT said:

I’ve always found describing Luke as ‘trying to kill Ben’ to be a misrepresentation. Luke tried to kill Vader in ROTJ after being goaded into it, and backed down shortly after. Luke merely considered killing Ben in TLJ, after experiencing a harrowing vision of the destruction the boy would cause, and only for a moment before coming to his senses. These instances seem pretty consistent to me, the latter event being a more extreme but logical extension of the struggle Luke (and jedi generally) had to face. If Luke had actually tried to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead.

OWK puts Ben in similar positions but I’m not sure it knows exactly what to do with him. At the opening of the show, Ben himself is weary and has allowed his abilities to diminish, which is understandable emotionally yet at the same time seems dedicated to protect and train Luke at the earlist convenience. These seem highly contradictory. Once Ben has gotten his groove back, he’s able to defeat Vader and accept Anakin is gone, but will still not put him out of his misery, and is no longer concerned with Luke’s training. Probably a symptom of finding an arc between III and IV when there didn’t need to be one.

He considered it by turning on a very bright, loud energy weapon over him while he slept. Which is either really foolish, or shows it was premeditated. Why is he going in the middle of the night while he’s sleeping anyway? Why not just ask Ben about it or have a mind probe vision while he’s awake? What exactly was the mechanism of Snoke corrupting Ben from a bajillion miles away? What made him turn, and what did Luke know or not know about it? Why is there this very specific level of suspicion where he knew something about it but the moment he knows more about it he needs to draw his weapon and not use it?

There’s so much about that moment that was completely unexplained or just nonsensical. And that’s if you even like the idea of the story.

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Luke was always quick to action and even in ROTJ, took a moment to do the right thing. So I don’t see any problem with the way he told it to Rey the second time. It fits his personality.

Here’s the thing, even if Luke messed up like that, I can’t fathom that he would not immediately do everything in his power to make it right. His most important distinction as a character was that he is the ONLY ONE that didn’t give up on Anakin. Here he just gives up and goes into exile. And I don’t care if in a novel or whatever it says that he went on a journey that made him realize whatever, the movie starts with Luke already altered and no glimpse of how he got that way is ever shown. Something that important should’ve been in the movie.

And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct.

That’s precisely it, that was at the beginning of his arc. Luke evolved throughout the OT movies, and then he just forgets ???

And then when Kylo Ren destroys the new school and kills all the students […] Luke is crushed.

Vader directly or indirectly committed genocide of hundreds of thousands of Jedi. His empire killed, tortured and oppressed trillions. Kylo is not even close to how bad Vader was, come on. And Luke still believed Anakin could come back, but not Ben ??

He is a side character there to aid the success of the main characters.

Sure, but he is a legacy character who deserves some continuity to his story. Let’s look at some other characters in Legacy Sequels:

Imagine if in BR 2049 we found Deckard hating and hunting replicants again, going against how his arc ended in the original BR.

Imagine if Maverick had given up on flying in the new Top Gun: Maverick because he lost a wingman even though we had already seen him overcome a similar tragedy in the original.

Now let’s look at Creed. Similarly to Luke, Rocky doesn’t box anymore. But his character is still a fighter at heart, he fights through cancer while training and believing in Creed.

I don’t have a problem if a character changed in the span of years, but the change has to respect the character’s existing journey. And if you are going to drastically change him, then at least SHOW how the change happened. Harvey Dent, Michael Corleone, Walter White, heck, even Spider-Man in SM3 (not that great a movie but it shows the change clearly), they are all examples of stories that SHOW good characters turned bad.

Edit: I don’t think Luke is evil in TLJ. Just contradictorily pessimistic.

And just to clarify, I honestly think TLJ is the best film in the ST. But Luke is just wrong.

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I too didn’t care much for the series, but still happy to watch any Star Wars creations (even when they feel forced)

adywan said:
And then there is the final Obi/ Vader fight.

This fight bothered me too. How come when Ben was fighting Vader, the fire that separated them some how stopped Vader from using the force on him and allowed him to escape?

I get it, you have to keep continuity for A New Hope, but that doesn’t mean you have to be as careless as I felt they were with this series.

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ADR14NAT1ON said:

Luke was always quick to action and even in ROTJ, took a moment to do the right thing. So I don’t see any problem with the way he told it to Rey the second time. It fits his personality.

Here’s the thing, even if Luke messed up like that, I can’t fathom that he would not immediately do everything in his power to make it right. His most important distinction as a character was that he is the ONLY ONE that didn’t give up on Anakin. Here he just gives up and goes into exile. And I don’t care if in a novel or whatever it says that he went on a journey that made him realize whatever, the movie starts with Luke already altered and no glimpse of how he got that way is ever shown. Something that important should’ve been in the movie.

And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct.

That’s precisely it, that was at the beginning of his arc. Luke evolved throughout the OT movies, and then he just forgets ???

And then when Kylo Ren destroys the new school and kills all the students […] Luke is crushed.

Vader directly or indirectly committed genocide of hundreds of thousands of Jedi. His empire killed, tortured and oppressed trillions. Kylo is not even close to how bad Vader was, come on. And Luke still believed Anakin could come back, but not Ben ??

He is a side character there to aid the success of the main characters.

Sure, but he is a legacy character who deserves some continuity to his story. Let’s look at some other characters in Legacy Sequels:

Imagine if in BR 2049 we found Deckard hating and hunting replicants again, going against how his arc ended in the original BR.

Imagine if Maverick had given up on flying in the new Top Gun: Maverick because he lost a wingman even though we had already seen him overcome a similar tragedy in the original.

Now let’s look at Creed. Similarly to Luke, Rocky doesn’t box anymore. But his character is still a fighter at heart, he fights through cancer while training and believing in Creed.

I don’t have a problem if a character changed in the span of years, but the change has to respect the character’s existing journey. And if you are going to drastically change him, then at least SHOW how the change happened. Harvey Dent, Michael Corleone, Walter White, heck, even Spider-Man in SM3 (not that great a movie but it shows the change clearly), they are all examples of stories that SHOW good characters turned bad.

Edit: I don’t think Luke is evil in TLJ. Just contradictorily pessimistic.

And just to clarify, I honestly think TLJ is the best film in the ST. But Luke is just wrong.

Luke is jaded and withdrawn in TLJ (as setup by TFA). He feels his mistake was to follow Kenobi and Yoda’s teachings too closely. They didn’t work for Anakin and then they didn’t work again for Ben. He, like Kenobi, failed to consider that Palpatine was too powerful and both Anakin and Ben had been corrupted, not by the training methods, but by Palpatine. I still think the PT era Jedi had some major flaws and fixing them could have saved Anakin (I feel this in the story and feel it was confirmed by what Dave Filoni related that Lucas had said about Qui-gon in TPM).

Here is where I think they nailed Luke in TLJ. HIS ENTIRE SCHOOL WAS SLAUGHTERD BY ONE OF THE STUDENTS. Put yourself in a teacher’s place. You bring in your nephew who wiped out all the other students. You think you are just going to be normal after that? That is a crushing experience. That is a life altering experience. No one is going to come through that unscathed. Luke sets out on a quest (Han relates part of it in TFA and Lando some more in TROS) and ends up on Ach-to. His reaction to being asked to teach yet another student is immediate refusal. He wants to be left alone to his sorrow. Instead Yoda reminds him that we learn from our failures and it makes us better teachers. Then he bounces back and saves the day in a glorious final stand against his former pupil. Everything about his character in TLJ fits the situation as laid out in TFA. Part of that was Lucas’s doing. I know they said they dumped his treatment, but they didn’t dump all Lucas’s story. They kept a good deal. Luke not showing up until the 2nd movie was done before Lucas sold it to Disney.

And given Luke’s tragedy, his portrayal is on the money. He has reverted to that farm boy again. That unsure student looking for a Jedi Master in a swamp. Rey and Yoda snap him out of it and by the end of TLJ he recovers his Jedi demeanor and faces down Kylo Ren.

Then you have this new series which shows us this same Journey for Kenobi. He is down and jaded like Luke. But it is young Leia, Vader, and the inquisitors who snap him back to himself. A different story but a parallel journey. I bet the similarities to TLJ are what some don’t like. It is one of the things that I like.

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Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

I’ve always found describing Luke as ‘trying to kill Ben’ to be a misrepresentation. Luke tried to kill Vader in ROTJ after being goaded into it, and backed down shortly after. Luke merely considered killing Ben in TLJ, after experiencing a harrowing vision of the destruction the boy would cause, and only for a moment before coming to his senses. These instances seem pretty consistent to me, the latter event being a more extreme but logical extension of the struggle Luke (and jedi generally) had to face. If Luke had actually tried to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead.

OWK puts Ben in similar positions but I’m not sure it knows exactly what to do with him. At the opening of the show, Ben himself is weary and has allowed his abilities to diminish, which is understandable emotionally yet at the same time seems dedicated to protect and train Luke at the earlist convenience. These seem highly contradictory. Once Ben has gotten his groove back, he’s able to defeat Vader and accept Anakin is gone, but will still not put him out of his misery, and is no longer concerned with Luke’s training. Probably a symptom of finding an arc between III and IV when there didn’t need to be one.

He considered it by turning on a very bright, loud energy weapon over him while he slept. Which is either really foolish, or shows it was premeditated. Why is he going in the middle of the night while he’s sleeping anyway? Why not just ask Ben about it or have a mind probe vision while he’s awake? What exactly was the mechanism of Snoke corrupting Ben from a bajillion miles away? What made him turn, and what did Luke know or not know about it? Why is there this very specific level of suspicion where he knew something about it but the moment he knows more about it he needs to draw his weapon and not use it?

There’s so much about that moment that was completely unexplained or just nonsensical. And that’s if you even like the idea of the story.

How on earth does the volume and brightness of Luke’s lightsaber prove something is premeditated? We see clearly the process, handily narrated by Luke to boot. He is overwhelmed by the darkness in Ben, reaches for his weapon, and by the time he ignites the blade the emotion has passed. It’s slowed down for the audience but it is still just a moment. Totally understandable considering how potent and vivid jedi visions have always been.

Luke suspected the worst about Ben. It had built over time. That’s why he looked into the kid’s mind while he slept. If you thought someone was a potential disaster, would you try to confirm it discreetly or just prod at him to see if he explodes? The ability to read someone’s mind is an ethical question mark. I don’t think Luke is 100% right to do what he did, and I don’t think he’s presented that way. Once again though, it’s an understandable decision to make for someone in that position. It’s interesting and tragic how Luke’s mind reading will inform Kylo’s own aggrassive mind probing later on.

What mechanism did you expect for Snoke’s contact with Ben? It was the force. We’ve seen how it allows people to sense things across the galaxy, and even communicate over distance. Snoke will later link Rey and Kylo’s minds with his power. He’s got game. And he worked on seducing Ben before Luke’s mistake ultimately triggered Ben to start killing. The classic Star Wars situation of a character acting on their vision of the future and unknowingly helping it come to pass.

I’d agree there’s some things unexplained but I’d disagree it’s nonsensical. I shall leave it here though. I draw the line at two seperate off topic debates in a thread, ha. We’re not going to agree, or break any new grounds of understanding.

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I’ll finish up with this and stop debating about the sequels.

Strictly from a narrative point of view, I don’t think it was smart to have Luke repeat the old Jedi’s mistakes when his entire character arc in the originals was about him choosing not to do so and becoming a better kind of Jedi as a result. And I don’t think his interaction with Ben is justified enough given his background with Vader.

But you’re welcome to enjoy whatever you want, and that’s fine. I like the prequels and they have serious issues.

Regarding the show, my problem with it is entirely different. I think, for the most part, OW characterization is fine, I just didn’t enjoy the surrounding plot.

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Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

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DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

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yotsuya said:

remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work

I wouldn’t say that. Yeah the Inquisitors hunt down and kill Jedi, but Vader was doing plenty of the work himself, especially when it’s a powerful Jedi master.

Both of the Jedi we see killed in the comics after the Inquisitors are introduced, Ferren Barr and Eeth Koth, are killed by Vader directly.

I ship Spideychelle (MCU Peter and MJ) and Tomdaya (Tom Holland and Zendaya)
My Star Wars Fan-Edits

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yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

It addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with by giving us another variation of what was already done in The Last Jedi. Star Wars is just going in circles. To me it’s just becoming very tiring, and reductive. There’s just so little originality. The start and end point of all these stories are set in stone, while the road in between is just repeating what was done before. Star Wars has become stale, like an old rock band who after 40+ years just plays the same set list over and over with very slight variations in the arangements of the music. I really hope Taika Waititi can do something different and exciting with his film, and thus inspire Lucasfilm to hire some good writers, that can bring back some creativity to this creative black hole.

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

It addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with by giving us another variation of what was already done in The Last Jedi. Star Wars is just going in circles. To me it’s just becoming very tiring, and reductive. There’s just so little originality. The start and end point of all these stories are set in stone, while the road in between is just repeating what was done before. Star Wars has become stale, like an old rock band who after 40+ years just plays the same set list over and over with very slight variations in the arangements of the music. I really hope Taika Waititi can do something different and exciting with his film, and thus inspire Lucasfilm to hire some good writers, that can bring back some creativity to this creative black hole.

I find it disappointing that you can’t see and enjoy the variations that make this unique. To put it in music terms, you are focused on the melody being the same while missing that the lyrics are different. It is a valid opinion, but I think you are missing out.

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Yotsuya, do you criticize anything in Star Wars, ever? Or is everything Disney puts out all just good and meaningful to you? I’m genuinely curious to know if there’s anything in Star Wars from, let’s say, the past twenty years, that you genuinely dislike?

It’s just weird to me that you’re on this forum of all places, where the conceit is that Star Wars has been mishandled but could be improved in the editing room like ANH was, yet you seem to think everything that’s been released has been flawless in every way.

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yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

It addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with by giving us another variation of what was already done in The Last Jedi. Star Wars is just going in circles. To me it’s just becoming very tiring, and reductive. There’s just so little originality. The start and end point of all these stories are set in stone, while the road in between is just repeating what was done before. Star Wars has become stale, like an old rock band who after 40+ years just plays the same set list over and over with very slight variations in the arangements of the music. I really hope Taika Waititi can do something different and exciting with his film, and thus inspire Lucasfilm to hire some good writers, that can bring back some creativity to this creative black hole.

I find it disappointing that you can’t see and enjoy the variations that make this unique. To put it in music terms, you are focused on the melody being the same while missing that the lyrics are different. It is a valid opinion, but I think you are missing out.

It just doesn’t do much for me anymore. What suprised me most about the Obi-Wan series is how little the final fight between Obi-Wan and Vader moved me, despite Ewan McGregor’s great performance. It wasn’t always like that. I liked Mando season 1 quite a bit, because it focussed on new characters and a new story. I thought the second season was fine, but it was too preoccupied with cameos and fan service, while the entire raison d’etre of the second season has been undone before the third season started. The Book of Boba Fett was just a poorly written mess with one good Mando episode. Finally Obi-Wan ultimately was a few cool moments held together by a flimsy story and at times surprisingly lazy writing, and cheap visuals.

So, yeah maybe there are a few attempts at new lyrics, but those lyrics have recently neither been good or memorable.

The trailer for Andor looked good, I must admit, so maybe that series may surprise me. On the other hand:

“There’s an old saying in Tennessee - I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, 'Fool me once, shame on… shame on you. Fool me - you can’t get fooled again.”

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Kaweebo said:

Yotsuya, do you criticize anything in Star Wars, ever? Or is everything Disney puts out all just good and meaningful to you? I’m genuinely curious to know if there’s anything in Star Wars from, let’s say, the past twenty years, that you genuinely dislike?

It’s just weird to me that you’re on this forum of all places, where the conceit is that Star Wars has been mishandled but could be improved in the editing room like ANH was, yet you seem to think everything that’s been released has been flawless in every way.

I disliked a lot of the EU books. I’m not a fan of the newer comics and the old Marvel ones only because they were so cheesy. I also think The Book of Boba Fett was a mixed up mess. It was good, but it could have been better. They missed on out several opportunities and the episode pacing was horrible (why was there basically a Mando episode instead of breaking that out over more episodes?).

I also think TFA was a horrible film. It has fantastic character scenes but not much of a cohesive story. And AOTC fails on so many counts. I’m also not a fan of about half the changes Lucas has made in his post theatrical tinkering. Mostly the extended pod race in TPM. The original was too long and the longer one is just way too long.

But no, I don’t have the problem with a lot of the new stuff that many here do. But you should get into a Star Trek discussion with me. I have some very harsh views on Discovery and Deep Space Nine. In comparison to what Trek has done, no Star Wars fan has anything to complain about.