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The Kenobi Movie Show (Spoilers) — Page 58

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Anakin brought balance to the force for long enough that Rey was born and could put it in balance for a longer term. I would say from the saga that this is because Anakin was not trained the right way (which would have required a more unconventional teacher like Qui-gon) which led to his fall. And his actions in destroying the Emperor did not lead to Palpatine’s total destruction. As the Jedi rose again, so did the Sith. After ROTJ, the PT Jedi are gone (Rey is learning from the original texts, not Luke or Yoda) and the Sith are gone. Full balance, which Anakin was unable to achieve due to his fall to the Dark Side, was achieved. But without Anakin’s sacrifice and Palpatine’s fall, the galaxy would not have had the time for a new chosen one to be born and ready. So Rey finished what Anakin started.

Palpatine was never truly gone. His physical body was destroyed, but his spirit endured and almost instantly inhabited a clone body. Hence, Anakin never restored balance, since the prophesy stated the Chosen One would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. Evidently he failed to do that. It also seems evident to me, that a millenia old prophesy would not pertain to just a few decades of peace or lack of activity from the Sith, especially one that already existed when the Sith were in hiding. TROS wanted to have its cake and eat it. Hence, having Anakin say “Restore balance like I did”. However, the reality is, that Anakin is just not the Chosen One, if you accept the narrative of TROS (which I don’t, since it’s a pretty awful film imo), and Rey restored balance, and thus is the Chosen One (if Palps is truly dead this time).

What I consider Anakin to have done in ROTJ is to break the Sith hold on the Force and release the Jedi access to the Force that had been suppressed (as noted in the dialog in the PT). And we are never given the full text of the prophesy and Yoda says it may have been misinterpreted. The prophesy was about bringing balance to the force, not destroying the Sith. That is something Kenobi said that may or may not be in the prophesy. Palpatine went from the center of the galaxy (in terms of influence and politics) to a denizen of the rim where his power and influence were limited. And Palaptine’s voyage to find a body to inhabit was not instantaneous. It took time and he was not at full power the moment he was in the body. He also ended up being trapped in a body that was not mobile. And the Force includes the physical form. A being separated from their physical form is less so Palpatine is not as strong as he was before. Not until he inhabits a body that is sound and in tune with the Force. That is his goal in TROS, to take over Rey’s body. He fails so he has never gotten his full strength back. His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

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Time

Probably already posted: a montage of the complete fight with battle of the heroes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrMnD2uYw0I

I still find it lackluster in term of settings and of cinematography (this horrible filming à la Paul Greengrass), Rebels rip off scene really has amazing job from Hayden and Ewan (fanedit idea: stabalize the last shot of Vader saying “I did” for greater impact). The only reason I might ever check any fanedit would be to see this moment again without of the dumb stuff around. The entire choregraphy is very bad and the rock stuff is ridiculous.

Btw Vader is still holding his saber so he’s not defenseless.

« Sie sind das Essen… wir sind die Jäger! »

Author
Time
 (Edited)

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Maybe the whole “bring balance to the force” thing is a stupid idea and never should have existed in the first place?

I would’ve welcomed all the retconning of controversial PT lore. Chosen one and immaculate conception? Misread prophecy/lies. Midichlorians? Fallacy of the later jedi.

Author
Time

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

Author
Time
 (Edited)

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.

Author
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.

There’s nothing on screen that suggests that.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

Author
Time

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.

There’s nothing on screen that suggests that.

That’s why it’s headcanon. Though I’m pretty sure the idea originated from the Thrawn trilogy. Thrawn concludes that the Imperial fleet fell to pieces at Endor because of the loss of the Emperor’s presence holding everything together.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Servii said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.

There’s nothing on screen that suggests that.

That’s why it’s headcanon. Though I’m pretty sure the idea originated from the Thrawn trilogy. Thrawn concludes that the Imperial fleet fell to pieces at Endor because of the loss of the Emperor’s presence holding everything together.

Exactly. To put it in RPG terms, Palpatine’s presence acted as a buff for the whole imperial navy/army at Endor. Once he fell down the reactor shaft, the Empire’s forces were de-buffed and everything went to shit.

I see why Zahn wrote it, because how else does one make sense of Death Squadron’s defeat at Endor (beyond Piett sticking too closely to the Emperor’s orders for the Star Destroyers to hold their fire)?

Death Squadron/Piett’s reluctance to open fire on the rebels, even after the shield went down, is very much communicated on screen. The “battle meditation” is not, but it gives Palpatine’s presence at the battle more weight.

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(beyond Piett sticking too closely to the Emperor’s orders for the Star Destroyers to hold their fire)

He should’ve intensified forward firepower sooner smh

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Servii said:

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

That is how you look at it. That is not how I look at it.

I also prefer to stick to just the movies and TV series in which there is no explanation for how Palpatine is back. In that, I feel that the Sith technicians are trying to create a clone that can hold Palpatne and that Grogu’s DNA is vital to the success of that project and even with that, they cannot create an independently viable clone. Though the do create Snoke. So in my view it is years before Palpatine can occupy a suitable body to have any power. So there is a good period where the force is balanced and peace has a chance to take hold.

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yotsuya said:

Servii said:

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

That is how you look at it. That is not how I look at it.

I also prefer to stick to just the movies and TV series in which there is no explanation for how Palpatine is back. In that, I feel that the Sith technicians are trying to create a clone that can hold Palpatne and that Grogu’s DNA is vital to the success of that project and even with that, they cannot create an independently viable clone. Though the do create Snoke. So in my view it is years before Palpatine can occupy a suitable body to have any power. So there is a good period where the force is balanced and peace has a chance to take hold.

“It is possible he was concieved by the midichlorians.”

“You refer to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force for a little while…kinda…”

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Servii said:

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

That is how you look at it. That is not how I look at it.

I also prefer to stick to just the movies and TV series in which there is no explanation for how Palpatine is back. In that, I feel that the Sith technicians are trying to create a clone that can hold Palpatne and that Grogu’s DNA is vital to the success of that project and even with that, they cannot create an independently viable clone. Though the do create Snoke. So in my view it is years before Palpatine can occupy a suitable body to have any power. So there is a good period where the force is balanced and peace has a chance to take hold.

“It is possible he was concieved by the midichlorians.”

“You refer to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force for a little while…kinda…”

Everything is for a little while. Many things have to be done again. And I think that whatever the prophesy, Anakin kind of botched it by turning to the Dark Side, so his redemption and brining balance may not have been as complete, but Rey couldn’t have done what she did without what he had done.

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I really wanted to like this series, and I was really looking forward to seeing it, but some of the writing and decisions just took me out of it. That he series felt like a big budget fan film, but with real actors, and it didn’t fully deliver in the way it should and could have.

There were some great parts, don’t get me wrong. But overall I found it lacking in quality, and we also get issues with knock-on effects into the Original Trilogy films and other Star Wars stuff too.

A missed opportunity for what could have been a memorable and high quality series. Something that all corners of Star Wars fandom was probably could be great, and instead passed by as for most as being “okay” or simply “good”. For fans who though it was was better than that I am genuinely happy for you, and wish I got as much enjoyment form it as you did.
 

After watching this and some of the newer Star Wars releases of late, the more new Star Wars content we now get that is separate to what has come before, the better.

“The other Sequels were the result of an over-anxious press. The original intention was to make three [films], and that was really the end of it. It was not until 10 years after the first [film] that I thought of doing a back story.” - George Lucas, speaking at the Premiere of ROTS in 2005

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Beyond the inconsistencies and contradictions with what we see later, the thing that kills me most with this series is the over-re-contextualization of the scene in Obi-Wan’s hut in the first movie. We’ve already got Obi-Wan “from a certain point of view”-ing the events of the prequel trilogy that subtext drips out of every word he says. It was perfect the way it was after RotJ and only bolstered by RotS.

But now not only is Obi-Wan lying about Anakin, here comes Leia who is ALSO lying about her experience with Obi-Wan and he also doesn’t tell Luke any of this for some reason, as well as the fact that Leia never brings this up later. So now, nearly every character is a liar in that movie except Luke, who may or may not have knowledge of what happened to him cause hey, guess what, he was attacked by an Inquisitor lady at 10 years old! Doesn’t that add so much??

After 45 years, nearly half a century, it just comes off as too much, too late. We shouldn’t STILL be pretending like there’s hidden secrets in ANH. Its story is complete, and the idea that the Disney writers were “adding context” to George’s work is just insulting.

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Kaweebo said:

Beyond the inconsistencies and contradictions with what we see later, the thing that kills me most with this series is the over-re-contextualization of the scene in Obi-Wan’s hut in the first movie. We’ve already got Obi-Wan “from a certain point of view”-ing the events of the prequel trilogy that subtext drips out of every word he says. It was perfect the way it was after RotJ and only bolstered by RotS.

But now not only is Obi-Wan lying about Anakin, here comes Leia who is ALSO lying about her experience with Obi-Wan and he also doesn’t tell Luke any of this for some reason, as well as the fact that Leia never brings this up later. So now, nearly every character is a liar in that movie except Luke, who may or may not have knowledge of what happened to him cause hey, guess what, he was attacked by an Inquisitor lady at 10 years old! Doesn’t that add so much??

After 45 years, nearly half a century, it just comes off as too much, too late. We shouldn’t STILL be pretending like there’s hidden secrets in ANH. Its story is complete, and the idea that the Disney writers were “adding context” to George’s work is just insulting.

I don’t agree. Just my opinion, but I don’t. For one thing, C-3PO lets out a strong of lies in ANH. It’s there in the original edit. He knows who the princess is and then he lies to Luke about who the hologram is. Leia is a Senator and we already know she lies about the location of the Rebel base. And she knows the name of Ben Kenobi. When reframed by the PT, there are lots of questions raised. This series gives us answers to those questions without derailing the saga narrative. George created a lot of glitches in his movies and it is nice to see some attempt to give them a logical answer. It isn’t that there are hidden secrets. People should be able to enjoy the saga with all its questions just fine. But for fans, it is nice to see a story that answers some of the most notable. We didn’t need the PT either, but we got it. Many enjoy it.

To be frank, every time they add to the Star Wars universe (and this is since 1977) there are always some people who hate the new additions and think it changes things the wrong way. That happened to TESB, ROTJ, the PT, the ST, Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance, Book of Boba Fett, and this series. I think the only one that hasn’t had that reaction was The Mandalorian season 1. It is a tiring pattern. Just let the franchise grow and enjoy what you want of it. If that is just the films, great. If that is just the original 1977 film, great. Some of us are enjoying the expanding Star Wars universe and actually like all the additions.

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Star Wars story was complete in 1977. There was no A New Hope, Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister, Vader wasn’t Luke’s father and Obi-Wan didn’t lie.

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yotsuya said:
To be frank, every time they add to the Star Wars universe (and this is since 1977) there are always some people who hate the new additions and think it changes things the wrong way. That happened to TESB, ROTJ, the PT, the ST, Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance, Book of Boba Fett, and this series. I think the only one that hasn’t had that reaction was The Mandalorian season 1. It is a tiring pattern. Just let the franchise grow and enjoy what you want of it. If that is just the films, great. If that is just the original 1977 film, great. Some of us are enjoying the expanding Star Wars universe and actually like all the additions.

That only works if it makes sense and doesn’t irreparably make the story worse. There is no justification you can give for the Empire knowing the Organas are Jedi sympathizers and not immediately taking care of them; no, blowing up their planet ten years later is not the same thing. No, there is no reason the Empire wouldn’t immediately take them out or place them on 24/7 surveillance and you can’t just write the script for the writers to make it make sense, anymore than you can do it with Obi-Wan letting Vader live or Leia never mentioning to Luke ever that she knew Kenobi. Just saying “maybe this happened off-screen” or “maybe this character was thinking this” is not a substitute for good storytelling, which is all I care about. Additions that only complicate the narrative rather than creating actual, meaningful context does nothing but dilute the story.

I like to think I’m very forgiving of SW, I like the prequels even though I know they are bad movies, because I appreciate the world they created even if the execution wasn’t very good. Hell, I’m even willing to forgive a lot of the stuff in the sequel trilogy despite it not going anywhere near the direction I wished it would and being terrible in many ways.

But pissing in my ear and calling it good writing is just annoying, especially when I’ve got you on the sidelines cheerleading, “actually, their piss in your ear is actually good because in my headcanon, blah blah blah…”

I will enjoy what I want of the saga. I’m also gonna complain about the stuff I do not like. If you don’t like my opinion, stop replying to me.

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Kaweebo said:

Beyond the inconsistencies and contradictions with what we see later, the thing that kills me most with this series is the over-re-contextualization of the scene in Obi-Wan’s hut in the first movie. We’ve already got Obi-Wan “from a certain point of view”-ing the events of the prequel trilogy that subtext drips out of every word he says. It was perfect the way it was after RotJ and only bolstered by RotS.

But now not only is Obi-Wan lying about Anakin, here comes Leia who is ALSO lying about her experience with Obi-Wan and he also doesn’t tell Luke any of this for some reason, as well as the fact that Leia never brings this up later. So now, nearly every character is a liar in that movie except Luke, who may or may not have knowledge of what happened to him cause hey, guess what, he was attacked by an Inquisitor lady at 10 years old! Doesn’t that add so much??

After 45 years, nearly half a century, it just comes off as too much, too late. We shouldn’t STILL be pretending like there’s hidden secrets in ANH. Its story is complete, and the idea that the Disney writers were “adding context” to George’s work is just insulting.

Very well put, couldn’t agree more.🤷‍♂️

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Kaweebo said:

yotsuya said:
To be frank, every time they add to the Star Wars universe (and this is since 1977) there are always some people who hate the new additions and think it changes things the wrong way. That happened to TESB, ROTJ, the PT, the ST, Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance, Book of Boba Fett, and this series. I think the only one that hasn’t had that reaction was The Mandalorian season 1. It is a tiring pattern. Just let the franchise grow and enjoy what you want of it. If that is just the films, great. If that is just the original 1977 film, great. Some of us are enjoying the expanding Star Wars universe and actually like all the additions.

That only works if it makes sense and doesn’t irreparably make the story worse. There is no justification you can give for the Empire knowing the Organas are Jedi sympathizers and not immediately taking care of them; no, blowing up their planet ten years later is not the same thing. No, there is no reason the Empire wouldn’t immediately take them out or place them on 24/7 surveillance and you can’t just write the script for the writers to make it make sense, anymore than you can do it with Obi-Wan letting Vader live or Leia never mentioning to Luke ever that she knew Kenobi. Just saying “maybe this happened off-screen” or “maybe this character was thinking this” is not a substitute for good storytelling, which is all I care about. Additions that only complicate the narrative rather than creating actual, meaningful context does nothing but dilute the story.

I like to think I’m very forgiving of SW, I like the prequels even though I know they are bad movies, because I appreciate the world they created even if the execution wasn’t very good. Hell, I’m even willing to forgive a lot of the stuff in the sequel trilogy despite it not going anywhere near the direction I wished it would and being terrible in many ways.

But pissing in my ear and calling it good writing is just annoying, especially when I’ve got you on the sidelines cheerleading, “actually, their piss in your ear is actually good because in my headcanon, blah blah blah…”

I will enjoy what I want of the saga. I’m also gonna complain about the stuff I do not like. If you don’t like my opinion, stop replying to me.

Well, you think it makes the story worse. I don’t. I think it is probably obvious that Bail Organa is a Jedi Sympathizer. But there is no evidence he is hiding a Jedi or supporting a Jedi or otherwise violating any Imperial law. And as we see in ANH, Senators still carry some heft in the Empire. Reva is chastised for kidnapping a Senator’s child. So your claim that it somehow changes things and would mean instant execution is negated by both the series itself and by ANH. Until the Emperor dissolves the Senate being a Senator makes a person very important and nearly untouchable.

And I truly do think it is well written. But we don’t have to agree on that. It is a matter of opinion not fact. We don’t have to agree.

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I think where this show really faltered is in its focus. It focuses on making an arbitrary rematch happen instead of focusing on a story. As a result, what could have easily been an opportunity to tie the PT and the OT together nicely, and maybe “fix” some of the inconsistencies, turned into more problems that now make certain lines of dialogue and character interactions in ANH weird.

There’s something similar in ROTS when Obi fights Grievous. His line “You fool. I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku.” doesn’t really make a lot of sense since they have fought countless times in the CW at that point. But in that case, I think the CW added so much to the lore and characters of the PT that such a thing is very excusable.

This show, on the other hand, is JUST the fight. That’s it. Almost everything else is either a ripoff of Rebels and Jedi: Fallen Order, or plain out pointless, like the Path thing since they must all be dead by the time of ROTJ. But most importantly, Obi Wan’s arc is really weak. I imagined him communicating with Qui Gon was going to be the defining moment at the end of his arc but it’s just played as a cameo at the end instead, with no real impact to the plot.

They didn’t write a story, they sold a fight.

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yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

The Treaty of Versailles wasn’t part of an (objectively real) prophecy in a fictional world and didn’t have to be written to satisfy an audience.