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The GOUT Sync Thread — Page 5

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4K83 will be released with all available frames. I think it would be dumb not to at least give you the option of seeing the entire film as it was intended to be seen, given that we finally have a complete print. The optical audio track will likely be the only audio option included, so out of the box there will be no sync issues.

I have actually tested it with NTSC GOUT audio and I personally did not notice any sync issues with the additional frames. Given that most of the dialog is rerecorded (ADR) anyway, rather than on set audio, the occasional, very slight lip sync issues are seen throughout every version of the film, and for foreign dubs you don’t expect the actors lips to exactly match the dialog anyway, and the subtitles will still work just fine too. If an explosion is audible 0.08 seconds late that’s not late enough my old eyes and ears to register that anything is wrong.

However, if your eyes and ears are more sensitive than mine and you find that the 2 additional frames throw everything out of whack for you, then you can of course re-edit the film to remove those 2 additional frames and GOUT sync it.

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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For a two-frame sync issue, check Harrison Ford’s dialogue. He’s the right mix of dialogue delivered rapidly with lots of mouth movement. In contrast, Carrie Fisher moves her mouth a lot less, which masks sync issues, and Ian McDiarmid delivers so slowly it also serves to mask sync issues. SFX and score aren’t noticeably off at two frames IMO. Basically Han is more out of sync with the rest of the Star Wars universe than anyone else 😉

Agreed though that subs aren’t an issue at all, and non-voiceover dubs should be well within tolerance. Basically for a two-frame sync issue, we’re only talking about alternate English tracks (6-channel, mono, commentary, descriptive audio) and voiceover dubs as noticeably impacted.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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In the course of syncing audio for 4K83, schorman and I found that the audio sync issue is more extensive than previously imagined. While the NTSC GOUT is missing two frames in the middle of reel 3, its audio actually turns out to be missing four frames worth of material at this exact spot. Given that the GOUT audio and the print audio run at the same speed nearly all of the time, this means that the sync on the GOUT audio has been incorrect all along. It is not correctly matched to the picture, and was apparently kludged together in a way that just barely works.

I am increasingly suspicious that this is also true for the other two movies as well. I am recalling in particular a spot about halfway through Empire: before the scene where Vader speaks with the Emperor, there is a shot where an asteroid crashes into one of the Star Destroyers. In the GOUT there is a clunky and awkward-sounding edit in the soundtrack in this spot, where it is plainly obvious the soundtrack has been looped to extend it in length. No other version has this awkward edit here, so I can only surmise that it was done in order to re-establish sync that would otherwise have become visibly wrong at this point. To be clear, the 1993 laserdisc source does not have this kludgy edit; only the GOUT itself has it.

I haven’t noticed any obvious edits of this nature in the SW GOUT (its sync may be better than the others, perhaps), but I can also tell you that all three movies seem to have their main title music start too late relative to the picture. If you look closely, you can see that the ‘STAR WARS’ title has appeared several frames before the music is heard to start, for all three. But watching other releases, the music and title card are aligned more closely. My guess is that the GOUT soundtracks were deliberately shifted a few frames late in order to cover up any obvious sync errors that might have occurred later, due to the audio perhaps not being the right length to fill the whole thing. The laserdisc source had side breaks that would have disguised this, since sync could be re-established on the next side, but the DVD’s do not have this and apparently needed additional edits.

GOUT-sync has been an established standard around here for some years, and for good reason. It is a convenient point of reference; it is (nearly) complete in terms of frame count, and the audio sync is good enough that there are no obvious issues with it. But in comparing it to the 4K83 print, which is entirely complete, inaccuracies in timing become more apparent. Because of this, I think it would be a good idea going forward to instead use a “frame-complete” version of all three films as the ideal timing reference, and match all audio tracks to that. The main thing to start with is exactly what frame the main title music should begin on, and I have not figured this out yet. The precise timing of everything else can be established once this is known.

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Fascinating! It’s long been my suspicion that people who prepare home-video releases often make the same sort of rough edits that fans do. It’s nice to have some corroboration of that.

hairy_hen said:
To be clear, the 1993 laserdisc source does not have this kludgy edit; only the GOUT itself has it.

That hints at an important distinction. The GOUT was always a reference for which frames to include. I don’t recall the AC-3 tracks being used very much (if at all) as a sync reference. In other words, the damage that the GOUT’s poor audio had on past audio work was probably minimal (and less than one might first imagine). But you’re undoubtedly right that your findings are good reason to establish a new standard.

The main thing to start with is exactly what frame the main title music should begin on, and I have not figured this out yet. The precise timing of everything else can be established once this is known.

Send me a PM when you are ready, and we can work some things out. I’d like to keep this thread for the old standard and start another for the new – that should minimize confusion.

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Chewtobacca said:

The GOUT was always a reference for which frames to include.

That’s the way I treated it too. However, the assumption that the GOUT audio was also synced to that frame reference seems natural.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:
However, the assumption that the GOUT audio was also synced to that frame reference seems natural.

It’s certainly natural, but it’s not something that necessarily follows. It depends on how one syncs audio.

While I’m glad that hairy_hen and schorman are on board with the new standard, because it will make adopting it far easier, I can’t help wondering what will happen with all the foreign dubs. Is someone going to resync them systematically?

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Chewtobacca said:

CatBus said:
However, the assumption that the GOUT audio was also synced to that frame reference seems natural.

It’s certainly natural, but it’s not something that necessarily follows. It depends on how one syncs audio.

While I’m glad that hairy_hen and schorman are on board with the new standard, because it will make adopting it far easier, I can’t help wondering what will happen with all the foreign dubs. Is someone going to resync them systematically?

IMO for a new sync standard that’s only a couple frames off, the resync priorities would be (in this order):

  1. All English tracks (77, 80, 83, 85, 93, stereo, mono, six-channel)
  2. All commentary tracks
  3. Descriptive audio
  4. All voiceover-style dubs (Russian, Ukrainian, Polish)
    — (above the line is a change you might actually notice, below the line is cray-cray) —
  5. All regular dubs
  6. Subtitles

I’m not seeing much urgency on any of the dubs myself, but I’m lazy. I’m also coincidentally not convinced of the need for a new standard.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:
I’m also coincidentally not convinced of the need for a new standard.

I’ve been against it, but as 4k83 is complete in terms of frames and future 4k releases seem set to follow suit, we’ll have a new standard whether we like it or not. Those are the versions that people are going to want.

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If more than one major video project uses it, I’d agree it’s a de-facto standard. Otherwise I’m of the opinion that it’s just Balkanization (no offense, I love the Balkans!) Multiple derivatives of the same source video with different processing options isn’t really the same thing IMO.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:
Multiple derivatives of the same source video with different processing options isn’t really the same thing IMO.

It’s not quite the same, I agree, but multiple frame-complete releases (derivative of one source or not) into which people will want to mux a given audio or subtitle track will lead to the same requirement for synced versions of those tracks. And once frame-complete 4k versions of the OT are out, how many other projects will go to the trouble of dropping frames to maintain GOUT sync if they no longer need to (audio from those 4k versions being readily available)?

There’s also the fact that hairy_hen and schorman have moved in step with 4k83 and will presumably continue to do so. Their latest mixes (which, as I understand it, involve improvements) are synced to that. Will they make GOUT-synced versions for legacy reasons?

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Chewtobacca said:

CatBus said:
Multiple derivatives of the same source video with different processing options isn’t really the same thing IMO.

And once frame-complete 4k versions of the OT are out, how many other projects will go to the trouble of dropping frames to maintain GOUT sync if they no longer need to (audio from those 4k versions being readily available)?

That’s the question. I’m willing to jump on board if some other video maintainer does, but at the moment I’m not jumping based on speculation/probability.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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LordZerome1080 said:

ChainsawAsh said:

LordZerome1080 said:

I guess we shall have to wait and see

You know you don’t have to comment on every single thread, right?

I know but that doesn’t mean I will listen to you

Please listen to him.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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Because it’s been getting really obnoxious and makes it hard to follow projects when threads keep showing new posts only for it to turn out to be you saying “Interesting” or “The more you know” or “That was informative” or something equally pointless.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Because it’s been getting really obnoxious and makes it hard to follow projects when threads keep showing new posts only for it to turn out to be you saying “Interesting” or “The more you know” or “That was informative” or something equally pointless.

Ojason does the exact same thing and you don’t see anyone complaining.

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You don’t need to respond to every single post in every single thread immediately after. Oojason does not do that. He sometimes makes similar posts, but he doesn’t scour the board to make sure he’s the most recent poster in every single thread.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

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LordZerome1080 said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Because it’s been getting really obnoxious and makes it hard to follow projects when threads keep showing new posts only for it to turn out to be you saying “Interesting” or “The more you know” or “That was informative” or something equally pointless.

Ojason does the exact same thing and you don’t see anyone complaining.

No, he really doesn’t.

To get back on topic:

So how much of a difference would a two-frame discrepancy between GOUT and 4K83 standards matter when it comes to subtitles anyway?

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ChainsawAsh said:

LordZerome1080 said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Because it’s been getting really obnoxious and makes it hard to follow projects when threads keep showing new posts only for it to turn out to be you saying “Interesting” or “The more you know” or “That was informative” or something equally pointless.

Ojason does the exact same thing and you don’t see anyone complaining.

No, he really doesn’t.

To get back on topic:

So how much of a difference would a two-frame discrepancy between GOUT and 4K83 standards matter when it comes to subtitles anyway?

Completely unnoticeable. Subtitles are regularly off by more than that with respect to audio for unrelated reasons. It’s really the dubs, and in particular the voiceover-style dubs that are the only concern within my bailiwick.

But if everyone else jumps on the 4Kxx frame standard, you know I’ll add a few milliseconds to my subs because I can’t help myself. It’s just how I am. I hold off for a long time, but once I commit I’m all in.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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That’s pretty much what I thought. I’m still not sure where I fall on the standards issue - I totally understand both sides. Seems likely that there will be separate “GOUT sync” and “4K83 sync” standards, at least for a while.

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CatBus said:
That’s the question. I’m willing to jump on board if some other video maintainer does, but at the moment I’m not jumping based on speculation/probability.

It’s certainly one pertinent question. I don’t imagine anyone expects you to adopt a new standard straight away. It’s early days yet.

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It’s a bigger deal with Return of the Jedi than for the other movies, I’d say, since the frame discrepancy caused the sound to be in advance of the picture for over half the movie’s runtime. In addition to that, the audio was apparently already in advance of the picture to begin with, so the dropped frames made it even more off. Overall this is more about correcting existing sync problems, by using the more reliable reference which is now available.

It isn’t yet possible to tell exactly how far off the audio sync is for the other two movies, but I’m hoping to get some film print references for those as well. Even if they are not complete it should still be possible to get an exact alignment by looking at the mid-reel splices and seeing where the corresponding dropouts line up. I’m currently beginning the tedious process of converting the frame numbers for the reels into timecode that I can see in my audio editor, so once I’ve done that I’ll know exactly how the sync of Jedi is supposed to work.