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The GOUT Sync Thread — Page 4

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 (Edited)

Chewtobacca said:

^ If I understand correctly, you are taking GOUT-synced audio and trying to match it to non-GOUT-synced video. Reversing the scripts at the start of the thread to obtain time-codes is possible, but it is likely to make your brain hurt, and it’s probably better to find another method. (It’s also kind of topic for this thread because, as you say, you are doing the opposite.)

Which releases do you have in mind anyway? I seem to recall that some people have already synced various audio mixes to the SSE and the like and posted them on the spleen.

Oh, I realize it’s off-topic, and it wasn’t intended as a derail so much as a bump. It just occurred to me while trying to do this reverse engineering that I never adequately explained why I was having such a hard time with this, so I might be missing a better solution.

This is all about subtitles for me, not audio. My basic project subtitles are NTSC GOUT-synced. So to make them sync with other projects, I put them through a Python script that assigns each release a series of timecodes and offsets. Such as, for PSB, at timecode 12:45, subtract .083 seconds (remove two frames), and so on. It’s almost always about where to subtract frames and how many to subtract, but some releases have a little padding at the beginning so there’s some positive adjustments too.

I’ve already kinda sorta manually synced against all the projects I really care about (Puggo and the initial GrindHouse/SSE releases, and PAL GOUT just for kicks… not that it matters with subtitles). They’re not frame-perfect but it’s subtitles so it still works. I’m just feeling a little dread about the upcoming ROTP release. The manual subtitle sync process is… slow, error-prone, and not so fun.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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^ Oh, I see. When RotP comes out, I’ll try to sync it to the NTSC GOUT and let you know where to make changes. I’ll also try to record time-codes as I go.

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Thanks. Converting frame numbers to timecodes is easy enough for me too.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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 (Edited)

Do we have anything equivalent for turning 04/11SE frames -> GOUT, presumably just dropping Blu frames with no GOUT equivalent and adding black frames for GOUT frames with no Blu equivalant?

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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^ Not that I’m aware of! I had toyed with the idea of making such scripts but never got round to it. After scan-based releases emerged, I lost most of my interest in projects based on the SE.

There was one project years ago that wove back and forth between the 2004 (I think) SE and the GOUT, but I can’t remember what it was called or if a script was ever released. Maybe someone will remember it.

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#Edit the special edition dvd to match the gout dvd frame for frame

swse1=swse.trim(0,15648) ++swse.trim(15669,0)
swse2=swse1.trim(0,21123) ++swse1.trim(21503,0)
swse3=swse2.trim(0,21600) ++ swse2.trim(21701,0)
swse4=swse3.trim(0,57790) ++ swse3.trim(57815,0)
swse5=swse4.trim(0,60434) ++ swse4.trim(61027,0)
swse6=swse5.trim(0,60499) ++ swse5.trim(60521,0)
swse7=swse6.trim(0,61452) ++ swse6.trim(61574,0)
swse8=swse7.trim(0,71278) ++ swse7.trim(71289,0)
swse9=swse8.trim(0,73845) ++ swse8.trim(76076,0)
swse10=swse9.trim(0,74228) ++ swse9.trim(74250,0)
swse11=swse10.trim(0,75798) ++ swse10.trim(75877,0)
swse12=swse11.deleteframe(143364)
swse13=swse12.trim(0,144345) ++ swse12.trim(144971,0)
swse14=swse13.duplicateframe(144395,144395,144395,144395,144395,144395,144395,144395)

Might be a start for dropping the SE frames.I can’t confirm these trims right now and I did this originally in 2007 I think. Adding black to the gout to match up to the SE would not be much harder.

Luke threw twice…maybe.

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 (Edited)

Those scans are typically missing quite a few frames compared to the gout. If you take star wars, for example. The gout seems to be missing only 1 frame when compared against all of the other sources, whereas the other sources are typically missing quite a few frames at the beginning and end of each reel. I, for one, am onboard with adding this 1 frame and calling it the new standard but for understandable reasons not many seem to want to go this route as the new standard would be something that would have to be compiled together before comparison with another project.

What would it be called? Of course, the day that somebody finds a new frame it would have to become version 1.1, etc, etc.

I do believe there will not be many more new frames found. Over the years we’ve all poured over them time and again. Source after source. I think we’ve got it nailed down pretty well now.

Luke threw twice…maybe.

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“The good thing about standards are there are so many to choose from!”

IMO GOUT (NTSC GOUT to be precise) meets the “good enough” standard, and I’m for sticking with it forever. Adding a frame that was never actually seen in theatres would break sync for all projects (not that it would matter for subtitles, but I’m thinking of others), for a pretty esoteric benefit.

There’s a better argument to be made for matching theatrical prints, since they have fewer frames than the GOUT, but it does not seem that they do so in a consistent manner, so there’s no standard that would apply to all prints. And losing those frames would also break sync for all projects for a pretty esoteric benefit.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

“The good thing about standards are there are so many to choose from!”

IMO GOUT (NTSC GOUT to be precise) meets the “good enough” standard, and I’m for sticking with it forever. Adding a frame that was never actually seen in theatres would break sync for all projects (not that it would matter for subtitles, but I’m thinking of others), for a pretty esoteric benefit.

There’s a better argument to be made for matching theatrical prints, since they have fewer frames than the GOUT, but it does not seem that they do so in a consistent manner, so there’s no standard that would apply to all prints. And losing those frames would also break sync for all projects for a pretty esoteric benefit.

Theatrical prints are missing frames because of projectionists cutting them off from time to time and wear and tear on the print. 4k77 is GOUT synced because the one missing frame is at the end of reel 5 for which we didn’t have a 35mm source. We would have had to use a BluRay frame to add it, so it was just left out.
Jedi GOUT is missing two frames from the middle of reel 3. We have “perfect” 35mm 4K scans for those two non GOUT frames. Those will be included in 4k83. It would be dumb IMHO to exclude 35mm theatrical frames to maintain a flawed video standard like the GOUT.

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oohteedee said:

CatBus said:

“The good thing about standards are there are so many to choose from!”

IMO GOUT (NTSC GOUT to be precise) meets the “good enough” standard, and I’m for sticking with it forever. Adding a frame that was never actually seen in theatres would break sync for all projects (not that it would matter for subtitles, but I’m thinking of others), for a pretty esoteric benefit.

There’s a better argument to be made for matching theatrical prints, since they have fewer frames than the GOUT, but it does not seem that they do so in a consistent manner, so there’s no standard that would apply to all prints. And losing those frames would also break sync for all projects for a pretty esoteric benefit.

Theatrical prints are missing frames because of projectionists cutting them off from time to time and wear and tear on the print. 4k77 is GOUT synced because the one missing frame is at the end of reel 5 for which we didn’t have a 35mm source. We would have had to use a BluRay frame to add it, so it was just left out.
Jedi GOUT is missing two frames from the middle of reel 3. We have “perfect” 35mm 4K scans for those two non GOUT frames. Those will be included in 4k83. It would be dumb IMHO to exclude 35mm theatrical frames to maintain a flawed video standard like the GOUT.

So essentially back to the PAL GOUT for Jedi again, then. We’ve already been there.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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oohteedee said:
4k77 is GOUT synced because the one missing frame is at the end of reel 5 for which we didn’t have a 35mm source. We would have had to use a BluRay frame to add it, so it was just left out.

But if this frame was just left out, wouldn’t that mean 4K77 was no longer GOUT synced? Or was a blank frame inserted to compensate?

Bluto

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CatBus said:

oohteedee said:

CatBus said:

“The good thing about standards are there are so many to choose from!”

IMO GOUT (NTSC GOUT to be precise) meets the “good enough” standard, and I’m for sticking with it forever. Adding a frame that was never actually seen in theatres would break sync for all projects (not that it would matter for subtitles, but I’m thinking of others), for a pretty esoteric benefit.

There’s a better argument to be made for matching theatrical prints, since they have fewer frames than the GOUT, but it does not seem that they do so in a consistent manner, so there’s no standard that would apply to all prints. And losing those frames would also break sync for all projects for a pretty esoteric benefit.

Theatrical prints are missing frames because of projectionists cutting them off from time to time and wear and tear on the print. 4k77 is GOUT synced because the one missing frame is at the end of reel 5 for which we didn’t have a 35mm source. We would have had to use a BluRay frame to add it, so it was just left out.
Jedi GOUT is missing two frames from the middle of reel 3. We have “perfect” 35mm 4K scans for those two non GOUT frames. Those will be included in 4k83. It would be dumb IMHO to exclude 35mm theatrical frames to maintain a flawed video standard like the GOUT.

So essentially back to the PAL GOUT for Jedi again, then. We’ve already been there.

I’m fairly certain the intention is to use all known frames for 4K83, including the one frame unique to the NTSC GOUT.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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Bluto said:

oohteedee said:
4k77 is GOUT synced because the one missing frame is at the end of reel 5 for which we didn’t have a 35mm source. We would have had to use a BluRay frame to add it, so it was just left out.

But if this frame was just left out, wouldn’t that mean 4K77 was no longer GOUT synced? Or was a blank frame inserted to compensate?

Bluto

There is a frame at the end of reel 5 that is in the Blu-ray but it is not in the Gout so 4K77 is Gout sync’d without it.

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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schorman13 said:

CatBus said:

oohteedee said:

CatBus said:

“The good thing about standards are there are so many to choose from!”

IMO GOUT (NTSC GOUT to be precise) meets the “good enough” standard, and I’m for sticking with it forever. Adding a frame that was never actually seen in theatres would break sync for all projects (not that it would matter for subtitles, but I’m thinking of others), for a pretty esoteric benefit.

There’s a better argument to be made for matching theatrical prints, since they have fewer frames than the GOUT, but it does not seem that they do so in a consistent manner, so there’s no standard that would apply to all prints. And losing those frames would also break sync for all projects for a pretty esoteric benefit.

Theatrical prints are missing frames because of projectionists cutting them off from time to time and wear and tear on the print. 4k77 is GOUT synced because the one missing frame is at the end of reel 5 for which we didn’t have a 35mm source. We would have had to use a BluRay frame to add it, so it was just left out.
Jedi GOUT is missing two frames from the middle of reel 3. We have “perfect” 35mm 4K scans for those two non GOUT frames. Those will be included in 4k83. It would be dumb IMHO to exclude 35mm theatrical frames to maintain a flawed video standard like the GOUT.

So essentially back to the PAL GOUT for Jedi again, then. We’ve already been there.

I’m fairly certain the intention is to use all known frames for 4K83, including the one frame unique to the NTSC GOUT.

That’s correct. I believe there are 2 frames in the PAL version of Jedi that are not in the NTSC and 1 frame in the NTSC that’s not in the PAL version (or perhaps it’s the other way around). In any case, the print we have has all 3 of these frames so they will all be used.

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

http://www.the007dossier.com

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 (Edited)

Syncing to the NTSC GOUT ought to remain the standard because the many audio and subtitles tracks that have been synced over the years adhere to it – re-syncing them all is neither feasible nor necessary. It doesn’t matter at all that the GOUT is a 4:3 LB DVD based on an old LD transfer, because frame-counts differ from release to release even on modern transfers – all that’s needed is an agreed-upon set of frames to which to sync, and that’s what GOUT sync has achieved.

And the audio and subtitle tracks have never been synced to the PAL GOUT, even for RotJ. Projects that used the PAL GOUT as a video source were usually careful to conform to the NTSC version – those that didn’t tended to come about through oversights, rather than through conscious decisions to depart from the standard.

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Chewtobacca said:

And the audio and subtitle tracks have never been synced to the PAL GOUT, even for RotJ.

Not entirely true. There was a time when some dubs and subs were PAL-synced for ROTJ, but that time was short-lived and the transition was painful.

That said, for subtitles, two or three frames is irrelevant as far as sync is concerned. For audio, however, that can be a pretty nasty sync issue. I imagine 4K83 will have its own audio tracks, but for those who want to use their own audio, it will be far easier to remove frames from 4K83 than to resync a bunch of audio, some of which is available only in lossy form and would lose quality in the re-encode. I get that every frame needs preserving and think 4K83 is right to do it that way, I just see an alternate GOUT-synced 4K83 as having more practical value to the mix-and-match crowd.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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It’s not necessarily true that lossy audio tracks could not be conformed to a new standard that includes more frames, especially when those frames occur at reel transitions. One could simply split the ac3 track at the appropriate position and insert a silent ac3 frame before rejoining. Now, this would not be a perfect solution, as Dolby digital uses an audio frame rate of 31.25 fps, while the film runs at 23.976 FPS.

The result for a single missing frame is that the audio is off by roughly 0.232 frames, rather than a whole frame. This would arguably be a “good enough” compromise for many of the tracks. This would work especially well in the case of Star Wars as that bit of silent audio would not be noticeable for the affected reel transition. However, it is admittedly more problematic for the two missing frames in ROTJ, as those do not occur at a reel transition.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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CatBus said:
Not entirely true. There was a time when some dubs and subs were PAL-synced for ROTJ, but that time was short-lived and the transition was painful.

In that case, what I (obviously) meant was that they were never routinely synced to the PAL GOUT – the overall point remains unchanged. The PAL GOUT was never used as a standard in the way that the NTSC GOUT is/was. A painful transition sounds as if it is something that ought not to be repeated.

schorman13 said:

It’s not necessarily true that lossy audio tracks could not be conformed to a new standard that includes more frames, especially when those frames occur at reel transitions. One could simply split the ac3 track at the appropriate position and insert a silent ac3 frame before rejoining. Now, this would not be a perfect solution, as Dolby digital uses an audio frame rate of 31.25 fps, while the film runs at 23.976 FPS.

The result for a single missing frame is that the audio is off by roughly 0.232 frames, rather than a whole frame. This would arguably be a “good enough” compromise for many of the tracks. This would work especially well in the case of Star Wars as that bit of silent audio would not be noticeable for the affected reel transition. However, it is admittedly more problematic for the two missing frames in ROTJ, as those do not occur at a reel transition.

That’s all true, but the potential for confusion is considerable. At present, people can swap audio and subtitles from release to release without worrying about sync issues – for a fan community dispersed around the globe, that’s a major achievement in terms of standardization. Even commercial discs occasionally have sync issues.

Imagine the problems that might be caused if we adopt a new standard. Is someone going to go through and re-sync every foreign language dub? You’re competent to make this sort of adjustment, but not everyone is. Inevitably, someone will mess up. And there will be endless questions about whether or not the adjustment has been made for a given track or whether a certain project follows the old standard or the new. All this for a frame or two? It’s not worth it.

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I agree wholeheartedly. I just like playing devil’s advocate a bit too much. 😃

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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Chewtobacca said:

That’s all true, but the potential for confusion is considerable. At present, people can swap audio and subtitles from release to release without worrying about sync issues – for a fan community dispersed around the globe, that’s a major achievement in terms of standardization.

The switch from PAL GOUT to NTSC GOUT was nasty in part because it was such a minor sync change (two frames at its worst).

If there’s a ten-frame sync change, everyone will know there’s a mismatch right away. But two frames? Some will notice, some won’t. It will sit irritatingly right on the edge of perception. In the case of ROTJ:DE 1.0, for example, the video was PAL GOUT, the audio was NTSC GOUT, and maybe 80% of people didn’t even notice a problem, at least at first – including Harmy himself!

That’s a problem, when two standards are so close that you can easily use the wrong one and not notice until it’s too late.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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^ Yes, I remember all of that. I was there too. The fact that most people might not notice a loss of sync is neither here nor there – as a community, we’ve always tried to ensure quality control and get things right that nobody else would notice (or care about). We’re not Lucasfilm.

And one can just as easily say that hardly anybody will notice that a frame or two has been dropped from a film scan to ensure NTSC GOUT-sync. It won’t be noticeable in motion, so why not maintain a standard that’s worked successfully for so long?

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Chewielewis said:

Are these frames on reel changes?

The two frames that are missing from the NTSC GOUT are in the middle of reel 3. They occur immediately before the splice in the middle of the reel. Each reel is comprised of two lengths of film spliced together.
No frames are missing from the print we are using.