The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 98

Lord Haseo said:

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:
Is that some sort of half assed way of endorsing that terrible joke?

No, I thought Silver was responding to me. I’m definitely not going to wade in on any bigoted nonsense. I was just in a bad mood yesterday upon hearing Lucasfilm has no plans to restore the OOT, and felt the appropriate response was to bash the rubbish films they continue to make.

Doesn’t Fox still have the rights to the OT until like 2020?

Ben Fritz at the Wall Street Journal says the Fox distribution rights issue is not a factor in whether or not Disney would restore the OOT…rather, George Lucas is still the major obstacle.

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Vader was cocky about the Death Star. He was openly dismissive of it in the briefing room scene. Vader did seem to better comprehend than Tarkin that smaller fighters were a bigger threat, when he decided to personally enter the battle.

He was dismissive of it in relation to the power of the Force, but not dismissive of its capabilities all together. But you’re right, Vader never seemed overly confident in the Death Star. What I meant to say was he was overly confident in being able to take down the Rebels, taking only 2 TIE fighters with him out to battle (both which ended up doing nothing if I remember because he insisted he would take care of them himself).
But this is getting way off topic so I think this conversation should end either here or very soon after.

How I see it JJ and Lawrence used SW and the rest of the OT as a backdrop to tell a new but familiar story.

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Point to where it’s hinted about Kylo’s feelings towards Vader

So Kylo is about to undertake the task of killing his father which makes him reassure Supreme Leader Snoke as to the fact that with his training he will not be seduced. Who else do we know that was seduced by the enemy when placed in a life or death situation with a family member? The very person we discover shortly after that Kylo idolizes. Vader

Once again though, the use of one word in a very specific situation can’t be applied to another situation like that. Vader pretty much had a huge hand in bringing the downfall of the Empire by killing the Emperor. While the use of the word “seduced” might imply that’s how the First Order might view those who go back/fall to the light, it doesn’t tell us anything about Vader who is partially responsible for the necessity of a splinter group. Do they hate him for it? Do they focus on his achievements? Do they deny his fall at all and blame the death of the Emperor on Luke? Is it just Kylo Ren that worships him? Why does Kylo Ren exactly worship him? Was it a moment of weakness or a definite betrayal?
So we know how the First Order feels about the act of turning to the light, but nothing about how they feel about Darth Vader. One single word is not enough to enlighten the audience of how the FO feels about Vader.

the Republic disarming 90% of their military and leading Leia to form the Resistance please.

I never said anything about the New Republic disarming 90% of it’s military; I just said they supported the Resistance and that is what I’m going to prove

From the opening crawl:

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

and from Hux’s speech

At this very moment in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance!

That’s perfectly fine and all, but that’s not what concerns me. Sure, the Republic (or some members of the New Republic according to Wookiepedia) supported the Resistance, but that doesn’t tell me why there is a Resistance. That doesn’t tell me what happened to the Republic’s army.
These questions matter more than anything. These questions are not answered in the movie, but are answered in some random book or comic.

I never argued that it was explained how he performed so well in a space battle. I was talking about his ability to fly an X-Wing in the first place despite not being part of the Rebels before recently. But I’ll get into his performance too.
A short conversation with Obi-Wan leads to the audience knowing that Luke has become an excellent pilot and Luke’s remarks on the T-16 being similar to the X-Wings and being able to hit ~2 meter Womp Rats on Tatooine alleviates the issue of the audience’s suspension of disbelief being broken during the Trench run. And as SilverWook said, Luke was in real danger during parts of the Trench Run, especially during the end where Vader was about to shoot him down. The only reason Luke is alive is because Han and Chewie came back, something which doesn’t break suspension of disbelief because Han and Chewie are seen becoming attached to Luke/Leia over the course of the film, Han coming back to help save their asses is very in character. It also should be mentioned that Tarkin and Vader were extremely cocky about the Death Star as shown in a few scenes so they didn’t take the Rebel forces as seriously as they should have. All of this helps bit by bit to strengthen the audience’s suspension of disbelief and Luke’s survival in the end.

Even with them saying things to shrink the disbelief factor it doesn’t dissipate it all. Womp rats can’t fire back and the T-16 did give him flying experience but it isn’t the same type of craft as an X-Wing and he didn’t have any difficulty flying. Call Rey a Mary Sue if you want but she at least struggled flying the Falcon and her overall performance was more realistic as she has never flown the Falcon before even though has flown other ships before. And even though he was in danger and was saved the likelihood of a pilot flying in such a circumstance without proper training would still be next to nil. But then again The Force…

Gonna disagree about Rey. She’s not a Mary Sue, but that scene with her “struggling” to fly the Falcon was pretty much her having a rough takeoff and skimming the sand wasn’t much of a struggle. She still managed to escape from 4(?) TIE Fighters with clever evasion skills, by flying through a hollowed out Star Destroyer with little room to move around in, and by flipping over the Falcon so the turret stuck in forward position and completely unable to move was able to perfectly align with the TIE Fighter chasing after them so Finn could shoot it down. That’s much more impressive in my opinion than anything Luke ever did in ANH with his X-Wing. Compensating for another person manning a turret in a completely different part of the ship is nothing less than amazing.
Luke in ANH was almost killed 3 times, was hit twice, and I believe took out only 1-2 TIE Fighters. The most impressive thing he really did in that battle was land the shot at the end, but during a couple of moments before the Trench Run Obi-Wan guided him through the Force and like I said earlier Luke wasn’t exactly new to hitting 2 meter targets. Also you can really just apply the “he/she just used the Force” argument to that moment while you can’t really to Rey doing a flip and lining a perfect shot up for Finn.

JediExile said:
Once again though, the use of one word in a very specific situation can’t be applied to another situation like that.

Yes it can and it does. Why else would he say that when being put in a position where he has to fight or kill a loved one?

While the use of the word “seduced” might imply that’s how the First Order might view those who go back/fall to the light, it doesn’t tell us anything about Vader who is partially responsible for the necessity of a splinter group.

Maybe but then again in canon someone turning back to the light in such a circumstance has only happened in Vader’s case.

Do they hate him for it? Do they focus on his achievements? Do they deny his fall at all and blame the death of the Emperor on Luke? Is it just Kylo Ren that worships him? Why does Kylo Ren exactly worship him? Was it a moment of weakness or a definite betrayal?

Most of those questions don’t need to be answered unless you see every Storm Trooper or Imperial Commander having conversations about Vader or having Vader memorabilia everywhere. The only person who seems to have any admiration for Vader is of course Kylo Ren and it should be self explanatory why he worships Vader. If not read Lords of The Sith; Lord Vader was pretty much a god in his prime.

That’s perfectly fine and all, but that’s not what concerns me. Sure, the Republic supported the Resistance, but that doesn’t tell me why there is a Resistance.

“Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy” - Maz about the First Order

That’s why

That doesn’t tell me what happened to the Republic’s army.

This is something they could have explained. They also don’t mention the treaty at all which is pretty mandatory.

Gonna disagree about Rey. She’s not a Mary Sue

I never said she was a Mary Sue, I said “Call her a Mary Sue if you want” because even when I explain this kind of shit people still call her that anyway.

but that scene with her “struggling” to fly the Falcon was pretty much her having a rough takeoff and skimming the sand wasn’t much of a struggle.

So her almost crashing the ship before the flight began isn’t even struggling…are you serious? And her skidding across the ground along with her being hit a couple of time and the shots of her in the cockpit showing her struggling to fly the thing (in contrast to Han who had absolutely no struggle and flew into an asteroid field like it’s nothing) shows that she was having more than a hard time piloting the Falcon.

She still managed to escape from 4(?)

2

TIE Fighters with clever evasion skills,

Those clever evasion skills would have meant nothing had Finn not shot down the first TIE Fighter. Before then she got hit at least twice.

by flying through a hollowed out Star Destroyer with little room to move around in, and by flipping over the Falcon so the turret stuck in forward position and completely unable to move was able to perfectly align with the TIE Fighter chasing after them so Finn could shoot it down. That’s much more impressive in my opinion than anything Luke ever did in ANH with his X-Wing.

Well in my opinion the fact that Luke was able to get at least 2 kills and out maneuver pilots with far more experience is a more impressive feat than simply evading them so that your companion can destroy half of the opposition. Though I will admit that the lining up shot was amazing.

LThe most impressive thing he really did in that battle was land the shot at the end, but during a couple of moments before the Trench Run Obi-Wan guided him through the Force and like I said earlier Luke wasn’t exactly new to hitting 2 meter targets.

Targeting computers in a futuristic world couldn’t even hit that 2 meter wide mark. It was because of The Force. The throw away line about womp rats means nothing.

Also you can really just apply the “he/she just used the Force” argument to that moment while you can’t really to Rey doing a flip and lining a perfect shot up for Finn.

While an impressive feat Rey didn’t need to use The Force (just good timing) to do that whereas The Force was a necessity to blow up the Death Star because it was proven that regular means were ineffectual in hitting the 2 meter wide mark.

Lord Haseo said:

While the use of the word “seduced” might imply that’s how the First Order might view those who go back/fall to the light, it doesn’t tell us anything about Vader who is partially responsible for the necessity of a splinter group.

Maybe but then again in canon someone turning back to the light in such a circumstance has only happened in Vader’s case.

Yes, you’re right that Vader turning to the light is fairly unique in canon (I think? I haven’t watched TCW all the way through and I can’t be bothered to watch Rebels). When Kylo is speaking to Snoke though, he is talking about him and his father, not Luke and Vader. The use of the word seduced doesn’t mean anything for Vader’s redemption. Like I said, it might help enlighten the viewer to how the First Order views going back to the light, but not how the First Order views Vader himself.

Do they hate him for it? Do they focus on his achievements? Do they deny his fall at all and blame the death of the Emperor on Luke? Is it just Kylo Ren that worships him? Why does Kylo Ren exactly worship him? Was it a moment of weakness or a definite betrayal?

Most of those questions don’t need to be answered unless you see every Storm Trooper or Imperial Commander having conversations about Vader or having Vader memorabilia everywhere. The only person who seems to have any admiration for Vader is of course Kylo Ren and it should be self explanatory why he worships Vader. If not read Lords of The Sith; Lord Vader was pretty much a god in his prime.

It’s important when you have a Sith who worships the man who was partially responsible for the downfall of the Empire. If Snoke accepts Kylo’s worship towards Vader then it’s not hard to assume that the Knights of Ren/First Order does too. So how does Kylo and company feel about his redemption? It was an extremely important part of his character in RotJ and his redemption goes completely ignored in the TFA. All it needed was one scene, justifying the worship of his power over his actions against the Empire and it wouldn’t be an issue. I mentioned a deleted scene of Snoke going over Vader’s redemption before, but can’t seem to find it now. If anyone could find and link it that’d be great.

That’s perfectly fine and all, but that’s not what concerns me. Sure, the Republic supported the Resistance, but that doesn’t tell me why there is a Resistance.

“Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy” - Maz about the First Order

That’s why

That doesn’t explain anything.
“Oh shit, there’s danger” doesn’t really explain the existence of a “Resistance” when there should just be a Republic Army dealing with the First Order.

That doesn’t tell me what happened to the Republic’s army.

This is something they could have explained. They also don’t mention the treaty at all which is pretty mandatory.

Yeah that was my point. The idea of an army being supported by the Republic fighting against the First Order instead of the Republic actually fighting the First Order is really odd and needs to be explained.

Gonna disagree about Rey. She’s not a Mary Sue

I never said she was a Mary Sue, I said “Call her a Mary Sue if you want” because even when I explain this kind of shit people still call her that anyway.

I wasn’t saying you said she was a Mary Sue. I was just saying I don’t believe she is one. She has struggles and failures, but I feel that her achievements overall put those struggles in the background. People seem to think that a Mary Sue is just a character that can do amazing things that others can’t, but if that were true then most Force users would be Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

but that scene with her “struggling” to fly the Falcon was pretty much her having a rough takeoff and skimming the sand wasn’t much of a struggle.

So her almost crashing the ship before the flight began isn’t even struggling…are you serious? And her skidding across the ground along with her being hit a couple of time and the shots of her in the cockpit showing her struggling to fly the thing (in contrast to Han who had absolutely no struggle and flew into an asteroid field like it’s nothing) shows that she was having more than a hard time piloting the Falcon.

Yes I realize she was having a hard time flying the Falcon in the beginning, but the rest of her flight honestly makes those little issues in the beginning seem like a joke. I mean she flies the thing through the hollowed hull of a Star Destroyer. Like hot fucking damn that thing gave her less room to maneuver than the Trench on the Death Star ever did. I think Han landing at lightspeed is still more impressive, but man if that’s not an achievement in piloting when you’re unfamiliar with a ship, I don’t know what is.

TIE Fighters with clever evasion skills,

Those clever evasion skills would have meant nothing had Finn not shot down the first TIE Fighter. Before then she got hit at least twice.

I’m not sure about that. Finn did do good with the first TIE Fighter (I don’t really understand why he was having trouble with aiming the turret though, Luke and Han made it look really easy, you move the sticks to position your seat for a better look at what you’re shooting at. It seemed really convenient actually more than confusing), but I think Rey flying through the Star Destroyer would have caused a lot more issues for 2 TIEs. This is all just speculation though, her flying was great.

LThe most impressive thing he really did in that battle was land the shot at the end, but during a couple of moments before the Trench Run Obi-Wan guided him through the Force and like I said earlier Luke wasn’t exactly new to hitting 2 meter targets.

Targeting computers in a futuristic world couldn’t even hit that 2 meter wide mark. It was because of The Force. The throw away line about womp rats means nothing.

The line about Womp Rats enforces Luke’s own ability to make the shot without the Force and his shooting in the dog fight. It’s definitely not just a throwaway line, it makes the shot more believable. The Force did help Luke the most in that situation, I will agree.

JediExile said:
Yes, you’re right that Vader turning to the light is fairly unique in canon (I think? I haven’t watched TCW all the way through and I can’t be bothered to watch Rebels). When Kylo is speaking to Snoke though, he is talking about him and his father, not Luke and Vader. The use of the word seduced doesn’t mean anything for Vader’s redemption. Like I said, it might help enlighten the viewer to how the First Order views going back to the light, but not how the First Order views Vader himself.

It doesn’t matter if he’s talking about having to kill Han or not. Clearly the situations in TFA and ROTJ are similar so him saying he will not be seduced ties into Vader. It’s just not explicitly stated because it doesn’t need to me.

It’s important when you have a Sith who worships the man who was partially responsible for the downfall of the Empire. If Snoke accepts Kylo’s worship towards Vader then it’s not hard to assume that the Knights of Ren/First Order does too. So how does Kylo and company feel about his redemption? It was an extremely important part of his character in RotJ and his redemption goes completely ignored in the TFA. All it needed was one scene, justifying the worship of his power over his actions against the Empire and it wouldn’t be an issue.

For one Kylo Ren is not a Sith. Secondly, since he knows about Vader’s redemption and he says “by the grace of your training I will not be seduced” means he was seduced by the enemy and the light side by extension. Any user of the Dark Side is going to look at such a thing with disdain and disappointment. Having a Dark Sider talk about how he feels about Vader’s turn is a bit redundant don’t you think?

I mentioned a deleted scene of Snoke going over Vader’s redemption before, but can’t seem to find it now. If anyone could find and link it that’d be great.

It’s not a deleted scene; it’s a scene in the novelization.

That doesn’t explain anything.
“Oh shit, there’s danger” doesn’t really explain the existence of a “Resistance” when there should just be a Republic Army dealing with the First Order.

Having the Republic deal with The First Order is another layer into the conversation. The Resistance was created as a backroom type of way to destroy the First Order. If you include the whole treaty the conversation shifts immensely.

People seem to think that a Mary Sue is just a character that can do amazing things that others can’t, but if that were true then most Force users would be Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

Truer words have never been spoken

Yes I realize she was having a hard time flying the Falcon in the beginning, but the rest of her flight honestly makes those little issues in the beginning seem like a joke.

Almost crashing the ship is not a little issue. It could have gotten them killed or captured. Furthermore she got hit twice during the chase and showed visible difficulty while doing the most mundane things with the Falcon. We never saw any type of difficulty flying the Falcon/X-Wing/Snow Speeder with Luke or Han

I mean she flies the thing through the hollowed hull of a Star Destroyer. Like hot fucking damn that thing gave her less room to maneuver than the Trench on the Death Star ever did.

That was impressive but even then she still barely made it out of there.

I don’t really understand why he was having trouble with aiming the turret though, Luke and Han made it look really easy

Yeah that’s why it took Han 43 seconds to destroy the first TIE Fighter.

This is all just speculation though, her flying was great.

Overall it was a pretty good performance. Not on Han and Luke’s level. Hell I wouldn’t even put her up with Wedge.

The line about Womp Rats enforces Luke’s own ability to make the shot without the Force and his shooting in the dog fight. It’s definitely not just a throwaway line, it makes the shot more believable. The Force did help Luke the most in that situation, I will agree.

Even before training Force Wielders show manifestation of their affinity for The Force from time to time. Something like bulls-eyeing womp rats could be considered one of those early manifestations.

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Yes, you’re right that Vader turning to the light is fairly unique in canon (I think? I haven’t watched TCW all the way through and I can’t be bothered to watch Rebels). When Kylo is speaking to Snoke though, he is talking about him and his father, not Luke and Vader. The use of the word seduced doesn’t mean anything for Vader’s redemption. Like I said, it might help enlighten the viewer to how the First Order views going back to the light, but not how the First Order views Vader himself.

It doesn’t matter if he’s talking about having to kill Han or not. Clearly the situations in TFA and ROTJ are similar so him saying he will not be seduced ties into Vader. It’s just not explicitly stated because it doesn’t need to me.

Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke, but how does it tie into Vader and how does that reflect Vader? What does the use of the word seduced tell the audience about how Kylo and the FO views Vader?

It’s important when you have a Sith who worships the man who was partially responsible for the downfall of the Empire. If Snoke accepts Kylo’s worship towards Vader then it’s not hard to assume that the Knights of Ren/First Order does too. So how does Kylo and company feel about his redemption? It was an extremely important part of his character in RotJ and his redemption goes completely ignored in the TFA. All it needed was one scene, justifying the worship of his power over his actions against the Empire and it wouldn’t be an issue.

For one Kylo Ren is not a Sith. Secondly, since he knows about Vader’s redemption and he says “by the grace of your training I will not be seduced” means he was seduced by the enemy and the light side by extension. Any user of the Dark Side is going to look at such a thing with disdain and disappointment. Having a Dark Sider talk about how he feels about Vader’s turn is a bit redundant don’t you think?

You’re right, Kylo is not a Sith. That’s my bad.
I’m going to focus on one part of what you wrote for a moment:
“Any user of the Dark Side is going to look at such a thing with disdain and disappointment.”
This is exactly how I feel, so his Vader worship really confuses me. He goes and prays to the guy who failed the Emperor and was seduced to the light side for help with not being seduced to the light side. I don’t understand the scene at all. The line “Show me your power again” (or whatever it was) to me implies that the ghost of Vader somehow exists and is somehow communicating with Ren which doesn’t make sense at all to me because Vader was redeemed. It’s a very confusing scene. I understand wanting to worship Vader for his power, but maybe praying for him to help you stay on the dark side is a bad idea.
This is why it’s important for me to know how exactly Kylo feels about Vader. Being seduced by the enemy is not something positive and it definitely doesn’t call for worship. But most of all, it most certainly doesn’t call for asking the helmet of that traitor to help you not betray the dark side. Why would Kylo do this? How does he view Vader? Seduced isn’t enough to make sense of this scene.

I mentioned a deleted scene of Snoke going over Vader’s redemption before, but can’t seem to find it now. If anyone could find and link it that’d be great.

It’s not a deleted scene; it’s a scene in the novelization.

I could have sworn I saw a video describing a deleted scene from the movie where Snoke talks about Vader, but must be my imagination or something.

That doesn’t explain anything.
“Oh shit, there’s danger” doesn’t really explain the existence of a “Resistance” when there should just be a Republic Army dealing with the First Order.

Having the Republic deal with The First Order is another layer into the conversation. The Resistance was created as a backroom type of way to destroy the First Order. If you include the whole treaty the conversation shifts immensely.

I realize the purpose of the Resistance is to fight the First Order, but the why for it’s creation isn’t in the movie. “Why isn’t the Republic itself doing this?” is probably the first thing I thought while watching the movie and it isn’t explained at all. It’s explained that the Resistance is being supported by the Republic indicating a positive relationship, but other than that I know nothing about the Resistance and the Republic. Then I read about the treaty and I got a little mad, but it made more sense. You can’t just continue a series 30 years later and be unwilling to delve even a tiny bit into the politics that occurred during those 30 years and explain why the Republic army isn’t involved in the movie.

Yes I realize she was having a hard time flying the Falcon in the beginning, but the rest of her flight honestly makes those little issues in the beginning seem like a joke.

Almost crashing the ship is not a little issue. It could have gotten them killed or captured. Furthermore she got hit twice during the chase and showed visible difficulty while doing the most mundane things with the Falcon. We never saw any type of difficulty flying the Falcon/X-Wing/Snow Speeder with Luke or Han

“Crashing” seems a little extreme. To me that implies higher speeds and a chance to die horribly. She had a rough takeoff and fucked up an archway if I remember, but the Millennium Falcon wasn’t about to shit itself or anything.
She did get hit twice during the chase, but the Millenium Falcon is a huge target (unlike an X-Wing) and it’s taken more hits from a TIE Fighter in the past. I think in ANH during the scene we’re talking about below it takes like 4-8 shots from a TIE Fighter. So the thing’s shields can take a beating and the armor itself has always seemed tough.
Also I wouldn’t say anything Rey did in the Falcon was mundane lol. Try flying a giant satellite dish with the cockpit on the far right, she did really well.

I mean she flies the thing through the hollowed hull of a Star Destroyer. Like hot fucking damn that thing gave her less room to maneuver than the Trench on the Death Star ever did.

That was impressive but even then she still barely made it out of there.

Yes, but that had more to do with the gun being stuck (I wonder why Finn didn’t just switch guns?) than having to do with her flying skills.

I don’t really understand why he was having trouble with aiming the turret though, Luke and Han made it look really easy

Yeah that’s why it took Han 43 seconds to destroy the first TIE Fighter.

I mean actually aiming it, not trying to hit a target. He was bouncing around like crazy in that seat, Luke just got into it and boom, started shooting without complaints. The seating seemed easy to get used to for a farm boy.

This is all just speculation though, her flying was great.

Overall it was a pretty good performance. Not on Han and Luke’s level. Hell I wouldn’t even put her up with Wedge.

I dunno about Luke, but yeah she’s not as great as Han or Wedge. Too bad Wedge isn’t back for the newer films, I’d much MUCH rather have him than Nien “Literally who?” Nunb

JediExile said:
Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke, but how does it tie into Vader and how does that reflect Vader?

I’m going to answer that with part of your own post

Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke - you

What does the use of the word seduced tell the audience about how Kylo and the FO views Vader?

That Kylo Ren when put in a similar situation to the one Vader faced in ROTJ he will not be seduced by the enemy/the light side. Just because he doesn’t say "By the grace of your training I will not be seduced like Vader did" doesn’t mean that the obvious similarities in the task isn’t what prompted him to assure Snoke he wouldn’t be swayed from his path. There would be literally no reason for him to say that unless he’s trying to assure Snoke he will not fail in the same area as his grandfather. And just because something isn’t explicitly stated doesn’t mean the connection isn’t there; sometimes you just need to put two and two together. It’s not lazy/shitty writing to sometimes respect your audience’s intelligence.

That’s my bad.

It’s cool. It’s just one of those misconceptions I can’t understand because Snoke called him Master of The Knights of Ren

This is exactly how I feel, so his Vader worship really confuses me. He goes and prays to the guy who failed the Emperor and was seduced to the light side for help with not being seduced to the light side. I don’t understand the scene at all.

Well since he knows about Vader’s turn and believes he was seduced by the enemy it is apparent that he thinks Anakin Skywalker is a perversion and that Darth Vader was his true self. Even when Rey gets into Kylo’s mind and discovers his fear it is that he will never be as strong as Darth Vader, not Anakin Skywalker

also there’s this:

It is the name of your true self. You’ve only forgotten - Luke Skywalker

So it’s more than possible Kylo thinks in reverse as to who Vader’s true self was

The line “Show me your power again” (or whatever it was) to me implies that the ghost of Vader somehow exists and is somehow communicating with Ren which doesn’t make sense at all to me because Vader was redeemed.

Aside from my rebuttal above we need to heed to the fact that Kylo Ren is not of a stable mind. Even in the novelization the mask never communicates back.

I could have sworn I saw a video describing a deleted scene from the movie where Snoke talks about Vader, but must be my imagination or something.

Maybe it’s one of those other deleted scenes JJ recently said could be released in the future but it is most certainly a scene in the novelization. I have read the book so I know this to be true.

It’s explained that the Resistance is being supported by the Republic indicating a positive relationship, but other than that I know nothing about the Resistance and the Republic. Then I read about the treaty and I got a little mad, but it made more sense. You can’t just continue a series 30 years later and be unwilling to delve even a tiny bit into the politics that occurred during those 30 years and explain why the Republic army isn’t involved in the movie.

Yeah, they were trying to stray away from the PT a bit too much. Hopefully there is a deleted scene in which this exposition is layed out

“Crashing” seems a little extreme. To me that implies higher speeds and a chance to die horribly. She had a rough takeoff and fucked up an archway if I remember, but the Millennium Falcon wasn’t about to shit itself or anything.

That’s why I said they could have been captured too.

She did get hit twice during the chase, but the Millenium Falcon is a huge target (unlike an X-Wing) and it’s taken more hits from a TIE Fighter in the past.

That’s true but it’s not like she was ducking and dodging (at the time) when she was hit

I think in ANH during the scene we’re talking about below it takes like 4-8 shots from a TIE Fighter.

Yeah that’s because Chewie wasn’t trying to evade any of the film. He was more or less keeping the ship steady

Also I wouldn’t say anything Rey did in the Falcon was mundane lol. Try flying a giant satellite dish with the cockpit on the far right, she did really well.

What I meant by mundane is her just doing basic evasive maneuvers

Yes, but that had more to do with the gun being stuck (I wonder why Finn didn’t just switch guns?) than having to do with her flying skills.

Well perhaps he didn’t know that was another one and perhaps the other gin wasn’t in a good position to fire. I don’t know really

I mean actually aiming it, not trying to hit a target. He was bouncing around like crazy in that seat, Luke just got into it and boom, started shooting without complaints. The seating seemed easy to get used to for a farm boy.

If anything Luke should have been the one who was uber uncomfortable sitting in the thing. Would definitely make the ordeal a tad more realistic.

I dunno about Luke, but yeah she’s not as great as Han or Wedge. Too bad Wedge isn’t back for the newer films, I’d much MUCH rather have him than Nien “Literally who?” Nunb

Yeah, Wedge was cool. Hopefully he at least get’s a mention in the sequels.

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke, but how does it tie into Vader and how does that reflect Vader?

I’m going to answer that with part of your own post

Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke - you

Not exactly what I meant, but I’ll get into that below.

What does the use of the word seduced tell the audience about how Kylo and the FO views Vader?

That Kylo Ren when put in a similar situation to the one Vader faced in ROTJ he will not be seduced by the enemy/the light side. Just because he doesn’t say "By the grace of your training I will not be seduced like Vader did" doesn’t mean that the obvious similarities in the task isn’t what prompted him to assure Snoke he wouldn’t be swayed from his path. There would be literally no reason for him to say that unless he’s trying to assure Snoke he will not fail in the same area as his grandfather. And just because something isn’t explicitly stated doesn’t mean the connection isn’t there; sometimes you just need to put two and two together. It’s not lazy/shitty writing to sometimes respect your audience’s intelligence.

I interpret the scene as just assuring Snoke he won’t fail period. While the Vader/Luke and Kylo/Han situations are similar, I think the Kylo and Han conflict is much more personal which is why I’m hesitant to even try to relate this scene back to the confrontation with the Emperor in RotJ. Kylo was raised by Han, Vader never even realized Luke existed until (I’m not really sure when he realized Luke was his son, I think the Emperor realized it before Vader did in ESB, but I can’t remember the scene for my life) 22 or so years after he was born. The emotional attachment, while there, isn’t as strong. And I think Kylo is a very different character from Vader in the sense that EVERYBODY IN THE FILM recognizes that he’s essentially just trying to be bad whereas Vader was undoubtedly bad (RIP Younglings). Luke was the one able to sense a small bit of goodness in his father, but even that hope of turning him eventually faded a little. I don’t think it’s hard for anyone to look at Kylo and say “Yeah, he’s gonna redeem himself probably” (I really hope he doesn’t, but it seems inevitable really). So I find it hard to watch that scene and relate it back to Vader in any way because the similarities in the conflicts pretty much begins and ends at Father vs Son.

That’s my bad.

It’s cool. It’s just one of those misconceptions I can’t understand because Snoke called him Master of The Knights of Ren

I’ll just say “Dark Jedi” or something in the future. Master of the Knights of Ren is a bit too long of a title for me.

This is exactly how I feel, so his Vader worship really confuses me. He goes and prays to the guy who failed the Emperor and was seduced to the light side for help with not being seduced to the light side. I don’t understand the scene at all.

Well since he knows about Vader’s turn and believes he was seduced by the enemy it is apparent that he thinks Anakin Skywalker is a perversion and that Darth Vader was his true self. Even when Rey gets into Kylo’s mind and discovers his fear it is that he will never be as strong as Darth Vader, not Anakin Skywalker

also there’s this:

It is the name of your true self. You’ve only forgotten - Luke Skywalker

So it’s more than possible Kylo thinks in reverse as to who Vader’s true self was

That is possible, but I don’t see how. Kylo was raised by Luke partially (during his training at the Jedi academy) so Luke must have told him about Vader and how he died. Now I know Kylo has a hard-on for power and admires Vader for being a badass cripple, but how did he make that stretch that Anakin Skywalker was truly himself when he was Darth Vader? This is why I was really interested to see Snoke say something about him because if he did even make passing mention of Vader in a positive light it’d be easy to make the argument that he twisted Ren’s view of Vader.
So essentially until the “fall” of Ben is shown, I think this scene will continue to not make sense to me.

The line “Show me your power again” (or whatever it was) to me implies that the ghost of Vader somehow exists and is somehow communicating with Ren which doesn’t make sense at all to me because Vader was redeemed.

Aside from my rebuttal above we need to heed to the fact that Kylo Ren is not of a stable mind. Even in the novelization the mask never communicates back.

I get that he’s not exactly emotionally stable, but nothing in the movie (well, aside from this scene I guess) points to him being a loony. If Kylo Ren said that he’s seen the power of Vader, I’m kind of inclined to believe him. I just don’t see him being completely bonkers, just an emotionally conflicted guy.

I think in ANH during the scene we’re talking about below it takes like 4-8 shots from a TIE Fighter.

Yeah that’s because Chewie wasn’t trying to evade any of the film. He was more or less keeping the ship steady

I actually thought that Chewie had lost some control over the ship during the fight (Leia mentions losing control of something, don’t remember quite what).

Also I wouldn’t say anything Rey did in the Falcon was mundane lol. Try flying a giant satellite dish with the cockpit on the far right, she did really well.

What I meant by mundane is her just doing basic evasive maneuvers

I don’t remember enough of the non-flippy/non-Star Destroyer part of the scene to argue against this or agree with it (Still need to get the DVD).

Yes, but that had more to do with the gun being stuck (I wonder why Finn didn’t just switch guns?) than having to do with her flying skills.

Well perhaps he didn’t know that was another one and perhaps the other gin wasn’t in a good position to fire. I don’t know really

As a side note, I never really understood how the guns were laid out or how the gravity worked in those little seats so maybe the top gun wasn’t in position to shoot, I dunno. I did just realize though that if Finn switched seats Rey wouldn’t have had to flip the Falcon over most likely.

I mean actually aiming it, not trying to hit a target. He was bouncing around like crazy in that seat, Luke just got into it and boom, started shooting without complaints. The seating seemed easy to get used to for a farm boy.

If anything Luke should have been the one who was uber uncomfortable sitting in the thing. Would definitely make the ordeal a tad more realistic.

I think it would have made more sense if that happened and Finn was the one more comfortable in the seat, yeah.

I dunno about Luke, but yeah she’s not as great as Han or Wedge. Too bad Wedge isn’t back for the newer films, I’d much MUCH rather have him than Nien “Literally who?” Nunb

Yeah, Wedge was cool. Hopefully he at least get’s a mention in the sequels.

Still a little annoyed that his actor said that being in the newer films would be “boring” or something along those lines. Even Daniel Craig and some other actors I believe popped on the set for some cameo roles(I still have no clue who he is in the film).

JediExile said:

Too bad

Indeed.

Wedge

What kind of a name is that?

isn’t back

He’s not front, so…

for the newer films,

One’s older now.

I’d

Your opinion.

much MUCH

Is that 100% more or 200% more?

rather

You mispelled “rathtar.”

have him than

You mispelled “then.”

Nien “Literally who?” Nunb

All this back and forth is making me nunb.

JediExile said:
I interpret the scene as just assuring Snoke he won’t fail period.

Why wouldn’t he just say “By the grace of your training I will not fail”? Saying he will not be seduced changes the entire landscape of the conversation

While the Vader/Luke and Kylo/Han situations are similar, I think the Kylo and Han conflict is much more personal which is why I’m hesitant to even try to relate this scene back to the confrontation with the Emperor in RotJ. Kylo was raised by Han, Vader never even realized Luke existed until (I’m not really sure when he realized Luke was his son, I think the Emperor realized it before Vader did in ESB, but I can’t remember the scene for my life) 22 or so years after he was born. The emotional attachment, while there, isn’t as strong.

That doesn’t matter much because in some capacity Vader loved Luke to some degree and even Kylo feels something for Han seeing as how he was torn apart at the decision to kill him or not.

And I think Kylo is a very different character from Vader in the sense that EVERYBODY IN THE FILM recognizes that he’s essentially just trying to be bad

Only Leia and Snoke thinks there’s still good in him. Han said there was too much Vader in him and that they lost their son forever and Rey calls him a creature in a mask and a monster. I don’t even know why you would capitalize such a blatantly false statement

whereas Vader was undoubtedly bad (RIP Younglings)

Well while a prick Anakin was tricked into becoming a Sith Lord

I don’t think it’s hard for anyone to look at Kylo and say “Yeah, he’s gonna redeem himself probably” (I really hope he doesn’t, but it seems inevitable really)

The only reason people think that is because Star Wars is supposed to be about hope and all that other sappy shit. From a narrative stand point Kylo did something Vader could never do and that was kill a loved one…much less in the vile way Kylo murdered Han.

Also there’s this quote

This just not the Force Awakens in a young woman; this is the Dark Side of The Force awakening in the villain - JJ Abrams

They could change things so that he’s even more conflicted in the sequels but what’s presented in TFA alone leads me to believe they’re setting Kylo up to be irredeemable.

I’ll just say “Dark Jedi” or something in the future. Master of the Knights of Ren is a bit too long of a title for me.

You can also just call him a Knight of Ren. I also just call him a Dark Side Warrior so that there are no real factions tied into me calling him that.

Now I know Kylo has a hard-on for power and admires Vader for being a badass cripple

Is the “cripple” thing necessary?

but how did he make that stretch that Anakin Skywalker was truly himself when he was Darth Vader

Maybe because how he sees it Vader was born to the Dark Side and without Luke’s meddling he would have stayed there.

I get that he’s not exactly emotionally stable, but nothing in the movie (well, aside from this scene I guess) points to him being a loony. If Kylo Ren said that he’s seen the power of Vader, I’m kind of inclined to believe him. I just don’t see him being completely bonkers, just an emotionally conflicted guy.

Just seeing how says “Han Solo can’t save you” in conjunction with the look in his eyes, and then going on to beat his wounds leads me to believe this guy is a bit off his nut.

I think it would have made more sense if that happened and Finn was the one more comfortable in the seat, yeah.

That’s kind of true but technically it’s something he’s never used before. He didn’t even feel comfortable in the canon section of a TIE Fighter.

Make quoting great again.

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
I interpret the scene as just assuring Snoke he won’t fail period.

Why wouldn’t he just say “By the grace of your training I will not fail”? Saying he will not be seduced changes the entire landscape of the conversation

I disagree again, this is starting to go in circles a little lol.

While the Vader/Luke and Kylo/Han situations are similar, I think the Kylo and Han conflict is much more personal which is why I’m hesitant to even try to relate this scene back to the confrontation with the Emperor in RotJ. Kylo was raised by Han, Vader never even realized Luke existed until (I’m not really sure when he realized Luke was his son, I think the Emperor realized it before Vader did in ESB, but I can’t remember the scene for my life) 22 or so years after he was born. The emotional attachment, while there, isn’t as strong.

That doesn’t matter much because in some capacity Vader loved Luke to some degree and even Kylo feels something for Han seeing as how he was torn apart at the decision to kill him or not.

Vader did love Luke, but not nearly to the extent Han loved Kylo really. Kylo definitely feels something for Han, but I still wouldn’t compare that to the conflict between Vader and Luke.

And I think Kylo is a very different character from Vader in the sense that EVERYBODY IN THE FILM recognizes that he’s essentially just trying to be bad

Only Leia and Snoke thinks there’s still good in him. Han said there was too much Vader in him and that they lost their son forever and Rey calls him a creature in a mask and a monster. I don’t even know why you would capitalize such a blatantly false statement

Leia, Snoke, and Han feel that way. Although Han did say there’s too much Vader in him, he was the one that confronted him at the end because he saw an opportunity to get his son back. Rey does call him a creature in a mask yeah, you’re right. “Everybody in the film” is a pretty false statement, I guess that was projecting a little onto the film. Most of the people I’ve talked to get the idea that Kylo is just some kid trying to be something he isn’t. Anyways, the main characters who actually know Kylo feel that way though (minus Han now, maybe Leia I dunno we’ll have to see).

I don’t think it’s hard for anyone to look at Kylo and say “Yeah, he’s gonna redeem himself probably” (I really hope he doesn’t, but it seems inevitable really)

The only reason people think that is because Star Wars is supposed to be about hope and all that other sappy shit. From a narrative stand point Kylo did something Vader could never do and that was kill a loved one…much less in the vile way Kylo murdered Han.

Also there’s this quote

This just not the Force Awakens in a young woman; this is the Dark Side of The Force awakening in the villain - JJ Abrams

They could change things so that he’s even more conflicted in the sequels but what’s presented in TFA alone leads me to believe they’re setting Kylo up to be irredeemable.

Yeah like I said I really hope he doesn’t turn. It would make him a much more interesting villain, but we’ll see. He did kill Han and that gives me hope he won’t turn, but if Anakin could slaughter most of the Jedi and take part in blowing up a planet and STILL be redeemed, Kylo can too.

I’ll just say “Dark Jedi” or something in the future. Master of the Knights of Ren is a bit too long of a title for me.

You can also just call him a Knight of Ren. I also just call him a Dark Side Warrior so that there are no real factions tied into me calling him that.

Knight of Ren is okay too I guess. I really wonder what “Ren” is.

Now I know Kylo has a hard-on for power and admires Vader for being a badass cripple

Is the “cripple” thing necessary?
Yes, he is pretty much a crippled (more than physically) and I think it’s a really cool part about him. Anyone can be a badass in Star Wars, even if you’re horribly burned, a little green goblin guy, a big fuzzy dope, etc.

but how did he make that stretch that Anakin Skywalker was truly himself when he was Darth Vader

Maybe because how he sees it Vader was born to the Dark Side and without Luke’s meddling he would have stayed there.

Speculation really, I just hope they’ll explain it in the sequel a little more.

I get that he’s not exactly emotionally stable, but nothing in the movie (well, aside from this scene I guess) points to him being a loony. If Kylo Ren said that he’s seen the power of Vader, I’m kind of inclined to believe him. I just don’t see him being completely bonkers, just an emotionally conflicted guy.

Just seeing how say “Han Solo can’t save you” and then going on to beat his wounds leads me to believe this guy is a bit off his nut.

I don’t see the issue with the “Han Solo can’t save you” line. Rey was emotionally attached to him and Kylo figured this out when he probed her mind earlier. Also the wound beating seemed more practical (at least in terms of Star Wars) than not. I always saw it as him inflicting more pain on himself to help himself draw from the dark side more. Very cool moment, I kind of wish he did that throughout the fight.

I think it would have made more sense if that happened and Finn was the one more comfortable in the seat, yeah.

That’s kind of true but technically it’s something he’s never used before. He didn’t even feel comfortable in the canon section of a TIE Fighter.

Yeah you’re right on that.

TV’s Frink said:

All this back and forth is making me nunb.

You seem annoyed at this conversation, why?

JediExile said:

TV’s Frink said:

All this back and forth is making me nunb.

You seem annoyed at this conversation, why?

You seem confused by my annoyance, why?