logo Sign In

The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 52

Author
Time

adywan said:

Alderaan said:

There was a moment where Han asked Rey to join his crew, and I thought that was a good scene between them, but it got squashed by her refusal. It would have been so much more effective if her character had wanted to get off Jakku, and a backstory of her loneliness had been played up leading to that moment, and then she accepted Han’s offer. That would have created a far more significant bond between the two of them.

And, if she had wanted to get off Jakku, the complaints would have been that it’s just copying Luke’s story.

The thing with Rey’s story is that she DIDN’T want to leave Jakku. She was ever hopeful that her family would come back to collect her. This was the hope that kept her going. As soon as she was off the planet she needed to go back. She was terrified that they would return and she wouldn’t be there. When Han asked her, you could see she really wanted to join him, but knew that she couldn’t . The hope that they would return wouldn’t let her. It wasn’t until after the force vision and the conversation with Maz, that she came to the realisation that they were never coming back for her.

One thing we should remember when discussing character arcs and the like is that, unlike ANH, TFA designed as a standalone movie. It’s part of an intended trilogy. Character arcs will be completed over three films. That’s just the way that big blockbusters work these days - they are written as 6 hour films split into 3 parts, rather than 3 self-contained (but sequential) 2 hour films.

War does not make one great.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Lord Haseo said:
You’re missing the point. Luke blowing up the Death Star shouldn’t have happened. Rey beating Kylo Ren probably shouldn’t have happened too BUT there are at least two reasons which at least partially explain why she was even able to survive. Luke blowing up the Death Star happens just because he’s special just like Rey beat Kylo Ren because she’s special.

With all due respect, I think you are the one missing the point. Luke didn’t beat Vader–he beat the Death Star. He blew up Tarkin.

Sure they built Luke’s character up a bit but there as nothing that was shown in the film that showed he had the kind of potential to blow up the Death Star which was established to be a shot so hard targeting computers in a Universe where interstellar travel is possible wasn’t even accurate enough to blow the thing up.

“Use the Force Luke”. It didn’t come out of nowhere. If he had suddenly gained so much power at the end of the film for no reason, it would have been a bad script. It wasn’t. Luke’s character wanted to go with Obi-Wan and learn the ways of the Force. That was a theme from the very beginning of the film. Not just with the good guys, but with Vader on the Death Star too. “The Force” is repeated over and over again.

You guys seriously underestimate how good the original Star Wars script is, how carefully thought out it was, and how well it was executed on screen. The Force Awakens script does not even compare. You can feel the movie was fun anyways, and yeah I agree with you to some extent. But I think the story itself was lazy and poorly executed. You can’t have a lazy and poorly executed story and then just say “it’s a movie, have fun!” The original Star Wars didn’t do that. No other great film does that.

They are great for a reason, and TFA is mediocre for that same reason.

Author
Time

Alderaan said:

hydrospanner said:

Would you have been happier if he just snapped Finn’s neck with the force and then proceeded to decapitate Rey with one swift swing of the blade? Powerful villian wins. Roll credits.

He should have done what he ended up doing to Finn anyway but without getting hit by him. I mean, imagine Han or Lando walking up to Vader with a lightsaber and actually getting in a shot.

This is actualy a really good example and it did give me pause for thought.

But.

As we’ve discussed, Kylo is not Vader. He wants to be, but he isn’t yet, and when Finn faces him, Kylo is weakened mentally and physically.

Also, Han and Lando are both just ‘scoundrels’. They learnt to fight in bar brawls and street fights while Finn is a trained warrior, who may even have had a bit of training in fighting against lightsabers or similar weapons (this is where somebody throws out some EU fact about how Han did a year at the imperial academy or whatever but i’m going to ignore that).

War does not make one great.

Author
Time

Finn was pissed in the lightsaber duel as well so I don’t find it to be to unbelievable that he got a lucky hit in before Kylo demolished him.

Couldn’t it also be that there is sort of an unwritten rule amongst Jedi/Sith or whatever that when someone pulls out a lightsaber that the honorable thing to do is duel them? Yeah Kylo could have used the force to take Finn out too but then he pulled out the saber so it was on? Couldn’t Vader have just used his mastery of the force against Luke in Bespin… why bother dueling him with a lightsaber at all?

Author
Time

hydrospanner said:

Finn was pissed in the lightsaber duel as well so I don’t find it to be to unbelievable that he got a lucky hit in before Kylo demolished him.

Couldn’t Vader have just used his mastery of the force against Luke in Bespin… why bother dueling him with a lightsaber at all?

Good question. Darth Vader (even in the OT) is a Master of the Darkside and he could have easily choked Luke unconsciousness, threw him in the Carbonite Chamber and that should have been all she wrote. But the plot demanded that a duel take place so that Luke could be told who his father was. And I don’t see much wrong with that.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Why bother with the carbon freezing at all? Darth Vader along with a battalion of stormtroopers couldn’t have just managed to subdue him and arrest him for his crimes against the Empire? Then once they take him prisoner Vader could say bring my shuttle and toss a handcuffed and guarded Luke in it and fly him up to the Executor. Once they landed he could then have Luke thrown in the brig where he could then have a long talk with him about their relationship and his options. Isn’t that how a real military would do it if they were on a mission to capture someone important? Instead of something believable we got some elaborate plan where Vader meets Luke alone and tries to get him in a carbon freezing chamber which fails and then they duel with lightsabers. How contrived.

Author
Time

hydrospanner said:

Why bother with the carbon freezing at all?

It would be the most effective way of bringing him to the Emperor without incident.

Instead of something believable we got some elaborate plan where Vader meets Luke alone and tries to get him in a carbon freezing chamber which fails and then they duel with lightsabers. How contrived.

Actually Luke and Vader started dueling and early into the duel Luke falls into the Carbonite chamber. The duel was a distraction to get him into the chamber. When that failed he continued the duel to test Luke’s abilities until he stopped playing around…

Author
Time

But he didn’t want to bring him to the Emperor without incident. He wanted to tell him he was his father and that he could destroy the Emperor so that they could rule the galaxy as father and son. How was he planning to do that when his son was frozen in carbonite?

Author
Time

The way I see it…
In ESB Vader is a total badass, he’s just toying with Luke then when he gets pissed off he starts throwing stuff at him and eventually chose his arm off. Vader has no intention of killing Luke he would have done so easily.

In ROTJ again he’s not really trying to defeat Luke - In a straight fight you’d probably put money on Vader, seasoned Jedi killer… But he’s conflicted and not quite all there. So in one of his evil swings he’s talking to Luke and Luke flips and surprises Vader we get some epic music and now Vader loses an arm.

We don’t see a straight out lightsaber duel until TPM, really.

So in Rey vs Kylo again Kylo isn’t really trying to win he’s trying to make Rey submit. In addition he’s a bit messed up - just killed dad and took a bunch of various hits already. Something stirs in Rey, she lets the force take over or something and takes him by surprise and as he’s not fully focussed she has the upper hand. It’s really not that different to ROTJ, even the music is pretty good at that point, there’s a great line when she’s standing over him.
Ren is flawed, extremely powerful but makes a mistake… Just like Anakin who was in uber power +20XP mode made a mistake with the higher ground 😶

Author
Time

hydrospanner said:

But he didn’t want to bring him to the Emperor without incident. He wanted to tell him he was his father and that he could destroy the Emperor so that they could rule the galaxy as father and son. How was he planning to do that when his son was frozen in carbonite?

What I meant by “without incident” is Luke trying to escape once he’s arrested. Carbonite would have ensured that wouldn’t happen.

Author
Time

Lord Haseo said:

hydrospanner said:

But he didn’t want to bring him to the Emperor without incident. He wanted to tell him he was his father and that he could destroy the Emperor so that they could rule the galaxy as father and son. How was he planning to do that when his son was frozen in carbonite?

What I meant by “without incident” is Luke trying to escape once he’s arrested. Carbonite would have ensured that wouldn’t happen.

The original intent is clearly to get him in carbonite but when that fails due to Luke being more difficult to handle and strong with the force/ more powerful than expected he uses the opportunity to be a backstabbing Sith Lord(you could argue that this is the rule of two being introduced informally)

Author
Time

TV’s Frink said:

The prequels sucked. There’s no way to possibly argue they are good or well-made, even if you don’t think they sucked. But the complaints here make me feel a little bad for Lucas, because he never stood a chance. He could have made the best three movies ever made and it wouldn’t have mattered. I never really bought that argument before, but now seeing it play out with TFA, I kind of buy it. Hell, if this internet existed in 1977, some of you would have ripped Star Wars to absolute shreds.

Fun stuff.

I agree the prequels sucked, but I remember the old days before the SE’s and accessible internet. We tore the OT to shreds back in the day in dank comic store basements, but I forget most of what we complained about thanks to the SE’s (they added so much garbage). All I remember for ANH was parsecs and washers being droid turds, while RotJ took the most heat since it had the weakest story of the 3 (and also Ewoks).

Ahh, the glory days when nerds were real nerds. But I digress.


I did go see TFA a 2nd time today so I thought I would share some randoms thoughts about it here with you fine folks. I did skim though reviews and I have to say I agree with many of the perceived problems, and I’ll try to keep this somewhat organized.

Characters:

-Rey ,I though, was a good character for the most part, and Daisy Ridley did a good job acting considering what she was given to work with. Like many others, I felt that her natural gift with the force comes too quickly, especially considering her lack of training. Running off at Maz’s was stupid, but everything on that planet was a mess. Still more of a man than that Annie in the PT since she has no problems with sand.

-Finn was for the most part solid and well acted (again considering the material given to him). His overly emotional hyperventilating towards the beginning I thought was a bit over the top, and trying to go to the outer rim was honestly really out of character.

-Ren sucked. Many want to label him with things like "emo’ and “Darth Vader wannabe,” but to be honest the correct label for him, IMO, is “Dark Helmet.” When he removes his face mask, it just reinforces this notion.

-BB8 was, to be honest, worthless. Looks cool and will probably sell a lot of toys, but if he were replaced by R2, or any astromech droid for that matter, the result would be about the same. On the plus side the grappling hooks were better than rockets, but still kind of dumb.

-Poe, also kinda worthless. Hopefully he stays a minor character and keeps BB8.

-Maz was a stupid CGI character. I think some are calling her “Yellow Yoda,” but I’m not 100% sure. Lets all hope she doesn’t end up doing stupid Yoda style flips with a mini light saber.

-Snoke, another stupid CGI character, and if anyone should be wearing a mask it should be him.

-General Hux was a poor General. I think just about every Imperial officer in the OT carried themselves more professionally than Hux did.

-Captain Phasma was menacing for about the 1st 10 minutes, then she showed up later to get stuffed in the trash. That’s right, use her as a plot device then just throw her away, literally.

-R2 should have been used more, BB8’s role would have been perfect for him if there wasn’t so much OT crap shoehorned in.

-C3PO was as annoying as ever, but also could have been used more considering him and R2 were originally “observers” of the saga.

-Han was a better role for Harrison compared to his other more resent work. I’m sure Han’s role could have been better, but at least he played a somewhat major role in the film.

-Chewie was the same old Chewie. Sucked to see him get shot, but still way better than watching him cut down 1000’s of robots like butter. It’s a good thing to have the possibility of being hurt, maimed, or killed.

-Leia could have had more to do other than some clunky dialog and to stand around in a control room. In response to her complexion I don’t think she has had any plastic surgery or CGI done to her face, some people are just jerks I think.

-Luke just stood there. Still kinda pissed about that since we don’t get to see the original group together one last time.

The plot wasn’t too bad up to the escape from Jakku, after that point the film started to break down. Han’s freighter was a mess, as was Maz’s palace, and to top it off we get a bigger and badder Death Star mkIII that still sucked compared to the 1st 2. I could go into detail but it’s been well covered in here all ready. The pacing was good up to the Jakku escape, but after that it was off to the races.

The special effects I think were what disappointed me the most considering how much they were pushing the practical effects. I was all ready convinced that CGI has no place in a Star Wars film after the prequels, but this film just reinforced my opinion. The only practical effects that I thought were somewhat impressive were how some of the storm troopers flew in the air from explosions, though there were a few times it happened that I could clearly see that it was CGI. In comparison, all 3 OT films still have numerous practical effects that still to this day impress me that they were able to pull it off. These days it’s just “Oh, too much trouble/money? We’ll just CGI it.” If anyone want’s to respond to this paragraph in regard to CGI, please take a moment and enlighten me how they were able to pull off the shots in the OT. I wholeheartedly believe that RotJ’s biggest strength is the space battle that still to this day has yet to be bested, even with all our CGI.

Over all in my opinion, Rey and Finn carried the film and made it at least watchable. After the 2nd viewing I’m not sure if it’s quite up to RotJ standards, but still way ahead of those stupid prequels.

Asking me to accept the SE’s and prequels is like asking a Catholic to accept the Book of Mormon and the Quran.

Author
Time

Then during said duel Luke gets a bunch of heavy metal objects hurled at him which would have knocked any person unconscious or at least seriously injured them in real life. The objects then smash a window which he sucked out of and falls to his apparent death, but conveniently there was a balcony or something that he landed on and he was able to get up relatively unscathed. This is followed by them dueling across this long balcony which they probably just put in their because they thought it would look cool and Luke just keeps stupidly backing up when he can obviously see there is nowhere to go. Then he gets his hand chopped off and he isn’t gushing blood everywhere like we saw in the previous film when Obi-Wan sliced that guys arm off in the cantina. Darth Vader proceeds to tell him he is his father so he jumps off and falls a thousand feet or so but he somehow manages to fly into this hole in the wall that happens to be big enough for him to fit in. Then he slides down the interior of what looks like a big slide you would see at a McDonald’s playplace for kids where a door on the ground then magically opens for him and drops him right on a weather vane looking thing that just happens to be there. Then he manages to talk telepathically to Leia… something we have never seen before just so they can come back and rescue him. How convenient. It is all a bunch of contrived nonsense that makes no sense and is an example of objectively poor storytelling.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

And don’t get me started on those two seated TIE Fighters in TFA with a seat for a rear gunner. Like that makes any sense or would ever be useful in a fight. It is the most contrived thing I have ever seen and was just put their so Finn and Poe could escape on a single ship together. It was silly and didn’t make complete sense like when the Rebellion went into battle with two seated speeders with a rear facing gunner who didn’t have any blasters and could only shoot a harpoon with a tow cable which turned out to be exactly what they needed to take down the AT-ATs. That was so not contrived at all and made perfect sense. Luke’s plan to attack the AT-AT’s by approaching them head on rather then from the side was also pure genius. He probably won another medal for implementing that brilliant strategy.

Author
Time

Best not watch any movies about WWI flying aces then. 😉

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

The prequels sucked. There’s no way to possibly argue they are good or well-made, even if you don’t think they sucked.

The things I like about the prequels are the basic plot points. Palpatine working two sides of a war to his advantage is a bit sophisticated for that sort of film.
The characters were badly defined, the scripts were lousy, the performances and direction clunky and wooden.
With this new film everything is in reverse. The acting is great, the characters are interesting and we’ll directed but what they are doing is so familiar it’s not engaging. For all it’s flaws, and there are many, ROTS felt more like Star Wars to me. All they had to do was write an original plot or mix it up a bit more and TFA would have been perfect. As it stands I’m surprised how ambivalent I feel towards it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

SilverWook said:

Best not watch any movies about WWI flying aces then. 😉

…Are you implying Star Wars is basically a ripoff of WWII dogfights??

How dare thee!

The Rise of Failures

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Bingowings said:

TV’s Frink said:

The prequels sucked. There’s no way to possibly argue they are good or well-made, even if you don’t think they sucked.

The things I like about the prequels are the basic plot points. Palpatine working two sides of a war to his advantage is a bit sophisticated for that sort of film.
All they had to do was write an original plot

Are you sure you want this? Are we sure we want this?

Me personally I want a nearly original plot with a couple of parallels to the OT but with that comes the chance that it will not feel enough like Star Wars which will most likely be the main complaint about Episodes VIII and IX.

Author
Time

Seeing as I’ve seen the first film in excess of 300 times seeing it remade was bound to leave me a bit cold.
I want another story set in that universe not the same story with the characters shuffled around.

Author
Time

Kepling said:
…some randoms thoughts about it here with you fine folks.

Are you sure you’re on the right board?

Oh, come on! That was funny. Besides, I’m surprised I got that in before Frink.

Forum Moderator
Author
Time

Bingowings said:

TV’s Frink said:

The prequels sucked. There’s no way to possibly argue they are good or well-made, even if you don’t think they sucked.

ROTS felt more like Star Wars to me.

Step away from the drugs.

War does not make one great.

Author
Time

Anchorhead said:

Kepling said:
…some randoms thoughts about it here with you fine folks.

Are you sure you’re on the right board?

Oh, come on! That was funny. Besides, I’m surprised I got that in before Frink.

Failed, I have.