The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 51

Wexter said:
No, that is the unlikely happy ending for the main character. It happens in movies (the original Star Wars for example). Star Wars is and always has been best enjoyed if you suspend your disbelief as much as possible. Implausibilities and strokes of luck have always been a huge part of this franchise. To me, it makes no sense to criticize a Star Wars film for having implausible plot.

Implausible. Complex. These are not the words you are looking for.

The word is inconsistent. The story is not consistent with its own internal logic. That is the problem.

Alderaan said:

Wexter said:
No, that is the unlikely happy ending for the main character. It happens in movies (the original Star Wars for example). Star Wars is and always has been best enjoyed if you suspend your disbelief as much as possible. Implausibilities and strokes of luck have always been a huge part of this franchise. To me, it makes no sense to criticize a Star Wars film for having implausible plot.

Implausible. Complex. These are not the words you are looking for.

The word is inconsistent. The story is not consistent with its own internal logic. That is the problem.

And what internal logic would that be? Is there a Star Wars rule saying that a powerful dark side user cannot be under any circumstances bested by an unlikely opponent? I haven’t read all the books, so I wouldn’t know…

The laser bolt thing is basically in the movie just because it looks cool, no need to rationalize it or anything. Heck, it does look cool and that’s fine with me. I have some issues with the film but that is certainly not one of them.

I already told you.

1. You can go back and make Kylo’s character weak, and have him masquerade and pretend to be stronger than he really is, and that’s fine. Rey can beat him that way because he’s just a wannabe.

2. You can make Kylo’s character strong, but then Rey can’t beat him at the end because she’s not strong enough herself. She needs to be saved somehow.

3. You can make the story self-contained, and have Rey’s character grow in a believable manner, to the point she is strong enough to beat an already strong Kylo at the end of the movie.

The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star. But he was also saved by Han, otherwise Vader would have killed him.

What you cannot do is have an inconsistent story and ending. You can’t have Kylo be a badass, and Rey is untrained, and then she wins at the end for no reason other than someone decided “welp, it would be better if the good guys win”. The good guys winning is fine, but you have to go back and do the hard work in the other 90% of the story to make it believable. You need Story A to go with ending A. You can’t put story B and Ending A together and make it work.

Alderaan said:

adywan said:
The thing with Rey’s story is that she DIDN’T want to leave Jakku.

Yes, I know that she didn’t want to leave Jakku. But that’s what makes Han’s character useless to her.

He has nothing to give her.

He offers her a job, a way off the planet, a way out of poverty. She considers it.

Alderaan said:

I already told you.

1. You can go back and make Kylo’s character weak, and have him masquerade and pretend to be stronger than he really is, and that’s fine. Rey can beat him that way because he’s just a wannabe.

2. You can make Kylo’s character strong, but then Rey can’t beat him at the end because she’s not strong enough herself. She needs to be saved somehow.

3. You can make the story self-contained, and have Rey’s character grow in a believable manner, to the point she is strong enough to beat an already strong Kylo at the end of the movie.

The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star. But he was also saved by Han, otherwise Vader would have killed him.

What you cannot do is have an inconsistent story and ending. You can’t have Kylo be a badass, and Rey is untrained, and then she wins at the end for no reason other than someone decided “welp, it would be better if the good guys win”. The good guys winning is fine, but you have to go back and do the hard work in the other 90% of the story to make it believable. You need Story A to go with ending A. You can’t put story B and Ending A together and make it work.

I don’t see it as inconsistent and I am probably going to leave this discussion, as it is not getting anywhere and you seem to be ignoring my two main points:

1. The ability to do cool magic tricks don’t necessarily mean the character is really all that powerful fighter.
2. Even a powerful fighter can be defeated after he takes an arrow to the knee.

How could a non force user like Han save Luke from a powerful master of the dark side like Darth Vader? That doesn’t sound believable at all and makes Vader who we thought to be strong now appear weak.

HyperNova said:
The only reason i can think of is that the killed stormtrooper who gives Finn the bloody helmet must be his loved one or some kind.

Finn’s turn of heart is not given a lot of time in the film and is IMO rather weak as a consequence. However, the book Before the Awakening explains that the killed stormtrooper was FN-2003, a friend of Finn.

HyperNova said:
About the crashing of the tie fighter on the planet. the tie figher miraculously disappears in the sand, that blows up under ground for some reason. that’s makes no sense at all.

It disappears because it has landed in a spot of some sort of non-Newtonian dry quicksand. Rey makes passing reference to the presence of this geological hazard on Jakku, which is more realistic than most Star Wars physics.

As for the explosion, that could be explained by the weight of the sand crushing a volatile component, by the ship being a Pinto, or just by the rule of cool. 😉

Lord Haseo said:

4. Then Luke somehow conveniently finds part of Leia’s message while cleaning R2

That is not a plot convenience, that is R2 being a sneaky little schemer on a mission. It is R2 who chooses a convenient time to play a fragment of the secret message to trick Luke into removing his restraining bolt, allowing R2 to escape and seek out Obi-Wan. Even the ever-gullible C-3PO suspects that R2 is up to something, and tells him to knock it off once Luke is out of earshot. (The relevant scene on YouTube, for anyone needing a quick refresher.)

Alderaan said:
The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star

All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.

Wexter said:

Alderaan said:

I already told you.

1. You can go back and make Kylo’s character weak, and have him masquerade and pretend to be stronger than he really is, and that’s fine. Rey can beat him that way because he’s just a wannabe.

2. You can make Kylo’s character strong, but then Rey can’t beat him at the end because she’s not strong enough herself. She needs to be saved somehow.

3. You can make the story self-contained, and have Rey’s character grow in a believable manner, to the point she is strong enough to beat an already strong Kylo at the end of the movie.

The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star. But he was also saved by Han, otherwise Vader would have killed him.

What you cannot do is have an inconsistent story and ending. You can’t have Kylo be a badass, and Rey is untrained, and then she wins at the end for no reason other than someone decided “welp, it would be better if the good guys win”. The good guys winning is fine, but you have to go back and do the hard work in the other 90% of the story to make it believable. You need Story A to go with ending A. You can’t put story B and Ending A together and make it work.

I don’t see it as inconsistent and I am probably going to leave this discussion, as it is not getting anywhere and you seem to be ignoring my two main points:

1. The ability to do cool magic tricks don’t necessarily mean the character is really all that powerful fighter.
2. Even a powerful fighter can be defeated after he takes an arrow to the knee.

NO THATS NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE INTERNAL LOGIC SET UP BY STAR WARS BUT ALSO TFA WAS TOO MUCH LIKE STAR WARS BUT ALSO NOT ENOUGH LIKE STAR WARS ARGLEBARGLE

TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

Alderaan said:

I already told you.

1. You can go back and make Kylo’s character weak, and have him masquerade and pretend to be stronger than he really is, and that’s fine. Rey can beat him that way because he’s just a wannabe.

2. You can make Kylo’s character strong, but then Rey can’t beat him at the end because she’s not strong enough herself. She needs to be saved somehow.

3. You can make the story self-contained, and have Rey’s character grow in a believable manner, to the point she is strong enough to beat an already strong Kylo at the end of the movie.

The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star. But he was also saved by Han, otherwise Vader would have killed him.

What you cannot do is have an inconsistent story and ending. You can’t have Kylo be a badass, and Rey is untrained, and then she wins at the end for no reason other than someone decided “welp, it would be better if the good guys win”. The good guys winning is fine, but you have to go back and do the hard work in the other 90% of the story to make it believable. You need Story A to go with ending A. You can’t put story B and Ending A together and make it work.

I don’t see it as inconsistent and I am probably going to leave this discussion, as it is not getting anywhere and you seem to be ignoring my two main points:

1. The ability to do cool magic tricks don’t necessarily mean the character is really all that powerful fighter.
2. Even a powerful fighter can be defeated after he takes an arrow to the knee.

NO THATS NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE INTERNAL LOGIC SET UP BY STAR WARS BUT ALSO TFA WAS TOO MUCH LIKE STAR WARS BUT ALSO NOT ENOUGH LIKE STAR WARS ARGLEBARGLE

I think I have found my new signature 😃

Lord Haseo said:

Alderaan said:
The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star

All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.

Oh my god, biggest plot hole of all in ANH. The training remote trains Jedi, which definitely shows Luke’s growth with the force (unlike Rey’s SUDDEN mastery)…but…wait for it…

HAN DOESN’T BELIEVE IN THE FORCE WHY WOULD HE HAVE A JEDI TRAINING DEVICE LUCA$H IS AN IDIOT

ANH thus proven to be worstest movie ever. Luckily JJ fixed it by having Finn throw the remote away.

Yoda Is Your Father said:

Alderaan said:

TV’s Frink said:
My least favorite scene in ANH was when Vader kills Obi-Wan. That scene totally blows because it forced unnecessary emotion on us, because Obi dies with someone he’s only in one scene with.

The scene wasn’t emotional because of Vader/Obi-Wan, it was emotional because of Luke/Obi-Wan. They had a lot of history together, on-screen, and Obi-Wan was Luke’s mentor. As soon as Vader strikes Obi-Wan down, which happens very quickly, there is a quick cut to Luke’s reaction. The director understood that the most important aspect of the scene was Luke’s reaction to his mentor’s death.

In TFA, on the other hand, the director focused almost all of the attention on the interaction between Han and Kylo. The slow frame rate killed the scene. Just brutal. There were cutaway shots to Leia, Chew, and Rey, but they all failed for various reasons.

Chewie’s reaction got me right in the gut. I really felt for the guy.

Well then obviously you don’t understand how to make a film, let alone the internal logic the movie sets up.

TV’s Frink said:

Lord Haseo said:

Alderaan said:
The original Star Wars was a combination of #2 and #3. Our perception of Luke’s strength and abilities grew over the course of the film, to the point where he was able to pilot his X-wing down the trench and fire the shot that blew up the Death Star

All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.

Oh my god, biggest plot hole of all in ANH. The training remote trains Jedi, which definitely shows Luke’s growth with the force (unlike Rey’s SUDDEN mastery)…but…wait for it…

HAN DOESN’T BELIEVE IN THE FORCE WHY WOULD HE HAVE A JEDI TRAINING DEVICE LUCA$H IS AN IDIOT

ANH thus proven to be worstest movie ever. Luckily JJ fixed it by having Finn throw the remote away.

Facts

Lord Haseo said:
All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.

But he didn’t kick Vader’s ass. He didn’t overcome Vader’s force powers. There was nothing inconsistent in the original Star Wars film as far as the ending goes.

90% of the story was spent building up Luke’s character. He was just a farm boy nobody. He gets thrown into a wall in the Cantina. He gets blasted by the bot over and over again. He’s a whiner.

Then suddenly, he uses The Force for the first time, and he blocks the blaster bolts. Then he’s daring and brave and courageous rescuing Leia in the Death Star. Then he’s shooting down storm troopers. Then he’s blowing up TIE fighters aboard the Falcon.

Finally, at the end, he pilots his X-wing into the Death Star trench. He would have been killed by Vader had Han not come back and saved him. That bought Luke just enough time to get off his shot.

Yoda Is Your Father said:
Chewie’s reaction got me right in the gut. I really felt for the guy.

But I would have liked to see him go more Wookiee, rip some arms out of their sockets and shit.

Yeah, Chewie’s reaction was the most powerful. But then he disappeared and the next time we see him he’s just a bellhop for Finn’s almost dead body. Couldn’t even get a hug from Leia at the end. Poor bastard.

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:
All Luke did with the exception of shooting a few Storm Troopers and blowing up Tie Fighters was a brief practice session with that droid. Going from that to blowing up the Death Star is pretty jarring.

But he didn’t kick Vader’s ass. He didn’t overcome Vader’s force powers. There was nothing inconsistent in the original Star Wars film as far as the ending goes.

You’re missing the point. Luke blowing up the Death Star shouldn’t have happened. Rey beating Kylo Ren probably shouldn’t have happened too BUT there are at least two reasons which at least partially explain why she was even able to survive. Luke blowing up the Death Star happens just because he’s special just like Rey beat Kylo Ren because she’s special.

90% of the story was spent building up Luke’s character. He was just a farm boy nobody. He gets thrown into a wall in the Cantina. He gets blasted by the bot over and over again. He’s a whiner.

Then suddenly, he uses The Force for the first time, and he blocks the blaster bolts. Then he’s daring and brave and courageous rescuing Leia in the Death Star. Then he’s shooting down storm troopers. Then he’s blowing up TIE fighters aboard the Falcon.

Finally, at the end, he pilots his X-wing into the Death Star trench. He would have been killed by Vader had Han not come back and saved him. That bought Luke just enough time to get off his shot.

Sure they built Luke’s character up a bit but there as nothing that was shown in the film that showed he had the kind of potential to blow up the Death Star which was established to be a shot so hard targeting computers in a Universe where interstellar travel is possible wasn’t even accurate enough to blow the thing up. Especially seeing as how he’s never flown a X-Wing. Also Biggs can shut the hell up.

Yoda Is Your Father said:

This argument can (and should) be applied to TFA (and most works of fiction).

It wasn’t necessary to advance the plot though. Any story can have superfluous touches for added effect, and that’s OK. One or two little coincidences are acceptable, because hey, life is full of them.

When the plot cannot advance though without coincidence A, and then coincidence B, and then coincidence C, and then coincidence #57 … the audience gets the feeling they are no longer watching a believable story, but rather a string of poorly written contrived coincidences.