The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 50

adywan said:
Slow frame rate? there was no slow frame rate in that scene.

Are you sure? I thought there was. The scene took forever and just died on the screen. But I haven’t seen it in 2 weeks, so maybe I’m not remembering the details correctly.

TV’s Frink said:
That’s fair, but it doesn’t have to be on-screen to be effective. The effect that Kylo’s turn had on Han and Leia is obvious and we don’t need to see scenes between them and Kylo to understand it.

Plus, the scene with Han and Kylo features two good actors doing some good acting. It doesn’t work for you, but it worked for me.

That’s fair that it worked for you, to each their own. I thought it was a clunker of a scene because the director and the actors tried to force emotion between two characters who had no history together. Yes, on-screen does matter, that’s the difference between showing and not telling.

Lord Haseo said:
There were cutaway shots to Leia, Chew, and Rey, but they all failed for various reasons.

I can understand Finn and Rey’s reaction because they just met the man but Chewie’s and Leia’s are what make the scene to me. We’ve never seen Chewie let out such a tormented yell and Leia feeling Han’s death through The Force was especially heartfelt because this is probably the first time she touched The Force for anything other than tactical foresight in a decade or two. Also you might have well said “These reactions all failed because not OT” because you know that’s what you wanted to say.

The cutaway shots to the other characters are what could have mattered, but didn’t for various reasons.

One might be tempted to think Leia and Chewie’s reactions would be the most important – because of their relation to Han – but in reality Rey’s reaction was the most important. She’s the main character. She’s the one who looked up to Han Solo as a mentor-type. So why did I not feel any emotional connection between her and Han? The two had very little chemistry together, mostly because Han’s role in the film was very poorly thought out. In the original Star Wars, he was the skeptic. His character had a very specific and effectively designed storytelling purpose. In TFA, he’s just inserted into the film for nostalgia reasons. I like Han, and I thought Harrison did a good job with him. But he was out of place in the movie. It seemed everything was a gratuitous 2 hour 16 minute setup just to kill off his character.

Chewie’s reaction was the one I felt the most, but it lasted 1 second and then he disappeared off screen. What was Chewie doing while Rey and Finn fought Kylo? We’ll never know, because the filmmakers never showed us. He just disappeared, and then the next time we see him, he’s carrying Finn onto the Falcon at the end. Gee, thanks Chewie. Couldn’t they at least let you hug Leia in the denouement? Nope, I guess not, that spot had to be saved for Rey and Leia, who had probably never met each other before that scene.

LexX said:
In TFA they showed the scene first so we were supposed to believe Kylo was powerful with the Force, and then at the end he was defeated.

Yep. He’s a complex character, rather than the Vader clone some of you wanted (and would have complained about if you had gotten).

TV’s Frink said:
Yep. He’s a complex character, rather than the Vader clone some of you wanted (and would have complained about if you had gotten).

You’re confusing inconsistent with complex.

The prequels sucked. There’s no way to possibly argue they are good or well-made, even if you don’t think they sucked. But the complaints here make me feel a little bad for Lucas, because he never stood a chance. He could have made the best three movies ever made and it wouldn’t have mattered. I never really bought that argument before, but now seeing it play out with TFA, I kind of buy it. Hell, if this internet existed in 1977, some of you would have ripped Star Wars to absolute shreds.

Fun stuff.

Alderaan said:

TV’s Frink said:
Yep. He’s a complex character, rather than the Vader clone some of you wanted (and would have complained about if you had gotten).

You’re confusing inconsistent with complex.

Goddamn you make me laugh.

Alderaan said:

TV’s Frink said:
Yep. He’s a complex character, rather than the Vader clone some of you wanted (and would have complained about if you had gotten).

You’re confusing inconsistent with complex.

Kylo Ren masquerades as a badass and even though he has shown great potential the truth is is that he hasn’t completed his training and compared to any Lord of The Sith he is Bantha Poodoo. So him not being as powerful as our first impressions is part of the reason as to why he’s complex

Lord Haseo said:
STAR WARS had a lot of plot conveniences

1. R2 and C3P0 happen to land somewhere conveniently on the side of the planet where Luke is

The plot was well-constructed. Obi-Wan was on Tatooine. Leia was on a mission to find him on Tattoine. It wasn’t a chance encounter. Since Leia couldn’t reach him, she uploaded the Death Star plans into R2’s memory and sent the droids onto the planet. Yes, they could have landed anywhere, but it’s possible they had knowledge of Obi-Wan’s general location, and in any case, it would be a whole other movie to watch them search the planet for 5 years. At least there were scenes that indicated the passage of time. They didn’t just land at Obi-Wan or Luke’s doorstep in the next scene – THAT would have been contrived.

Lord Haseo said:

2. Then later when they’re separated they somehow conveniently meet up on the sandcrawler so they can be sold to Owen and Beru

Convenient? The Jawas were droid flippers. They came across R2 and grabbed him. Then they came across 3PO and grabbed him. There were many others too.

Lord Haseo said:

3. Then the other Astromech poops out conveniently so that R2 can be purchased

This isn’t a plot convenience, it was dramatic intent. Owen could have purchased both R2 and 3PO and the scene would have been over, but it would have been less effective. After the droids went through so much and were separated and then reunited, the possibility they might be separated again pulls on your heart strings a little bit.

Lord Haseo said:

4. Then Luke somehow conveniently finds part of Leia’s message while cleaning R2

Of your complaints, this is the only one that is a plot convenience. Having one or two of these at the beginning of a story is very standard. The audience usually has no problem with it as long as the storyteller doesn’t make it obviously absurd. The idea to have Luke clean dirt out of R2 and then jar the message out of his memory is a very subtle way to get the story started.

Lord Haseo said:
Kylo Ren masquerades as a badass and even though he has shown great potential the truth is is that he hasn’t completed his training and compared to any Lord of The Sith he is Bantha Poodoo. So him not being as powerful as our first impressions is part of the reason as to why he’s complex

If Kylo were masquerading as a badass (masquerading being the key word) then he would just be a wuss playing cosplay in his outfit. The fact that he did the powerful things he did in the first 90% of the movie means that he wasn’t masquerading. He was actually that powerful by definition.

“Complete his training” is relative. If he’s already enough of a badass to freeze someone in mid-air with his mind at will, or stop blaster bolts in mid-air at will, or telekinetically fling people through the air at will, then you would assume “complete his training” would give him some powers even greater than those, not just help him remember he has those powers instead of forgetting about them when the plot conveniently calls for it.

Alderaan said:

mostly because Han’s role in the film was very poorly thought out.

Han is kind of like Obi-Wan. He’s there to usher our heroes into this new world and to give us some backstory. Obi-Wan told us about how Vader and the Empire destroyed the Jedi Knights and Han told us about how Luke’s Academy ended up going to shit. I also like that this is coming from a non-force sensative

In TFA, he’s just inserted into the film for nostalgia reasons.

So what? He brought some laughs, Harrison gave a pretty good performance and TFA felt the most like Star Wars in the scenes Han was in.

Chewie’s reaction was the one I felt the most, but it lasted 1 second and then he disappeared off screen. What was Chewie doing while Rey and Finn fought Kylo?

The last time we saw the Wookie he shot Kylo Ren and preceded to blow away any Storm Trooper within sight. I would have liked to see more of Chewie going apeshit but what we got was sufficient.

Couldn’t they at least let you hug Leia in the denouement? Nope, I guess not, that spot had to be saved for
Rey and Leia, who had probably never met each other before that scene.

Yeah that’s bullshit. Even Leia touching his arm would have been something.

Lord Haseo said:
Han is kind of like Obi-Wan. He’s there to usher our heroes into this new world and to give us some backstory. Obi-Wan told us about how Vader and the Empire destroyed the Jedi Knights and Han told us about how Luke’s Academy ended up going to shit.

But he’s not like Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was a mentor to Luke, who was often out of his element. Rey, on the other hand, was superior to Han at everything. She could fly Han’s ship better than he could. She could repair it faster and better than he could. Han didn’t mentor her in anything. There was no chemistry, because Han didn’t have a role in the film. He showed up so you could go “oh there’s Han Solo, I love that guy!” Then he just kind of takes the characters to this place, and then he just kind of takes them to this other place, and then he just happens to get killed. The end.

There was a moment where Han asked Rey to join his crew, and I thought that was a good scene between them, but it got squashed by her refusal. It would have been so much more effective if her character had wanted to get off Jakku, and a backstory of her loneliness had been played up leading to that moment, and then she accepted Han’s offer. That would have created a far more significant bond between the two of them.

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:
Kylo Ren masquerades as a badass and even though he has shown great potential the truth is is that he hasn’t completed his training and compared to any Lord of The Sith he is Bantha Poodoo. So him not being as powerful as our first impressions is part of the reason as to why he’s complex

If Kylo were masquerading as a badass (masquerading being the key word) then he would just be a wuss playing cosplay in his outfit. The fact that he did the powerful things he did in the first 90% of the movie means that he wasn’t masquerading. He was actually that powerful by definition.

If he’s already enough of a badass to freeze someone in mid-air with his mind at will

We’ve never seen him use Stasis against another Force Wielder. Also before you say anything Rey wasn’t calling upon The Force when he was taken by Ren

or stop blaster bolts in mid-air at will

Strong ability but we don’t know the origins (or even the name) of the technique so it’s impossible to say with absolute certainty how advanced a Force wielder would have to be to do learn such a technique

or telekinetically fling people through the air at will,

Rey didn’t have up a Force Barrier so who knows how strong Kylo’s Force Pushes are.

Kylo pushing Rey with the force is child’s play in comparison to when Darth Vader and Sidious crashed Twi’Lek freighters with the force. Or when Darth Bane leveled the Rakatan Temple with a force wave. It’s unfair as fuck to put Kylo as the same league as those three.

then you would assume “complete his training” would give him some powers even greater than those, not just I fully exhelp him remember he has those powers instead of forgetting about them when the plot conveniently calls for it.

I assume completing his training means that he can break through almost any Force Barrier, I would expect him to be able to freeze multiple blaster bolts. I expect him not to only showcase Force Lightning but for him to have proficiency like Count Dooku (who’s Force Lightining is not on par with Sidious, Bane, Krayt or Plagueis) who can kill instantly with it. Pretty much I expect him to be on the level of a Darkside Adept… I guess a good example could be Maul. Then in Episode IX he can be on par with Vader, Revan or Malgus.

I fully exhelp him remember he has those powers instead of forgetting about them when the plot conveniently calls for it

Maybe that argument will stick if there’s a scene in which he forgets to use a Force Power anytime that’s not 5 seconds after he killed his dad.

Alderaan said:
“Complete his training” is relative. If he’s already enough of a badass to freeze someone in mid-air with his mind at will, or stop blaster bolts in mid-air at will, or telekinetically fling people through the air at will, then you would assume “complete his training” would give him some powers even greater than those, not just help him remember he has those powers instead of forgetting about them when the plot conveniently calls for it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is a bit more to the mastery of Force than cool magic tricks. For example learning to refrain from shoving your supernatural ability into everyone’s face.

I personally love stuff like the freezing of the laser bolt. It makes perfect sense in the context of how I see Kylo Ren. He didn’t need to freeze the bolt, there were dozens of other ways he could have deflected it. But this one was the coolest one. He desperately wants to be like Darth Vader. He might have inherited some of his talents, but right now he still knows he is nowhere as feared and respected as Vader was. Vader would probably not have stopped a laser bolt mid-air. He could if he wanted to, but to him that would be just senseless showing off. On the other hand Kylo is a far different character. Most of all he wants to make an impression. And if the surviving witnesses of his stunt are anything like us, they are discussing what they saw to this day.

Anyway, that’s my interpretation, which is probably a tad more favourable than others. 😃

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:
Han is kind of like Obi-Wan. He’s there to usher our heroes into this new world and to give us some backstory. Obi-Wan told us about how Vader and the Empire destroyed the Jedi Knights and Han told us about how Luke’s Academy ended up going to shit.

She could fly Han’s ship better than he could. She could repair it faster and better than he could.

Except for when she nearly got them all killed in the beginning. No, that never happened at all.

Han didn’t mentor her in anything.

I don’t remember me saying that. I remember saying

Lord Haseo said:
He’s there to usher our heroes into this new world and to give us some backstory

There was no chemistry, because Han didn’t have a role in the film

There was hardly any chemistry because the film is fast paced so there was hardly any time to develop anything that would effect most people. Even myself

He showed up so you could go “oh there’s Han Solo, I love that guy!”

Although I don’t see this as entirely the case, so what?

There was a moment where Han asked Rey to join his crew, and I thought that was a good scene between them, but it got squashed by her refusal.

It would have been so much more effective if her character had wanted to get off Jakku,

So I guess those markings on her wall don’t mean shitall. The only reason she declined was obviously because of her family

and a backstory of her loneliness had been played up leading to that moment

They could have done more with this but you still get the impression that she’s very lonely. That’s the impression I got from the “A day in the life of Rey” scenes

and then she accepted Han’s offer. That would have created a far more significant bond between the two of
them.

Not by much but it would help their growing bond but it does create a problem…for the nitpickers at least. If Rey were to say yes people would complain about how she just forgot about her family.

Wexter said:
I personally love stuff like the freezing of the laser bolt.

I don’t have a problem with it. I thought it looked good on the screen. The problem many of us had was that Kylo suddenly doesn’t have any of these abilities in the last fight. The entire movie calls for him to kick Finn and Rey’s asses at the end, but you can see the story meetings from a couple years ago taking place on screen.

Producer: “Yeah, we’ve done some audience testing, and we think it’s really important to have the good guys win at the end of the movie.”

Some other asshole: “The good guys won at the end of the first Star Wars. And the bad guys won at the end of the second one. And the good guys won at the end of the third one. It would be like poetry and rhyme if the good guys win at the end of the TFA.”

Everyone else in the room: “Yeah!”

Skeptic: “But what about the rest of the story? How can Kylo possibly lose to these people?”

Writer/Director: “Hmm…I know, how about we injure him so he’s not as strong?”

(1 year later, still some issues with this rough cut)

Skeptic: “Still seems the ending is not quite right.”

Writer/Director: “Fuck it, we’ll just add in one more scene about Kylo’s training not being finished and be done with it.”

adywan said:
The thing with Rey’s story is that she DIDN’T want to leave Jakku.

Yes, I know that she didn’t want to leave Jakku. But that’s what makes Han’s character useless to her.

He has nothing to give her.

Alderaan said:
Skeptic: “How can Kylo possibly lose to these people?”

these people

Rey…Kylo Ren lost to REY. He swatted Finn out of the way like a fly and now that fly needs a new spine. The only reason people even remotely think Finn “held his ground” is because he got a lucky hit even though Kylo Ren dodged and parried everything Finn threw at him WITH EASE and controlled 96 percent of the fight. But that’s fine because it’s an indication of the time we live in. Everyone only reads the headline but not the article.

Would you have been happier if he just snapped Finn’s neck with the force and then proceeded to decapitate Rey with one swift swing of the blade? Powerful villian wins. Roll credits.

Alderaan said:

Wexter said:
I personally love stuff like the freezing of the laser bolt.

I don’t have a problem with it. I thought it looked good on the screen. The problem many of us had was that Kylo suddenly doesn’t have any of these abilities in the last fight.

That kinda supports the point I made in the rest of my post. It’s one thing to show off with stopping laser bolts and whatnot, but in a one-on-one fight when you’re bleeding, running out of time before the world blows up and have just murdered your own father, you might just not be in your prime fighting condition. Therefore I don’t see this outcome of the fight as implausible at all. If Kylo was as powerful at that moment as he appeared to be in the opening scene, there really wouldn’t be much of a fight – he’d probably just grab Rey and Finn by the collar with the Force and throw them in the trunk. This character is not a badass, he is just posing as one. A dark lord of the Sith wannabe.

Wexter said:

Alderaan said:

Wexter said:
I personally love stuff like the freezing of the laser bolt.

I don’t have a problem with it. I thought it looked good on the screen. The problem many of us had was that Kylo suddenly doesn’t have any of these abilities in the last fight.

This character is not a badass, he is just posing as one. A dark lord of the Sith wannabe.

But good Lord does have have the temperament for one especially now that he’s fully given himself to the darkside.

His progression is what I’m looking the most forward too in the sequels.

hydrospanner said:

Would you have been happier if he just snapped Finn’s neck with the force and then proceeded to decapitate Rey with one swift swing of the blade? Powerful villian wins. Roll credits.

He should have done what he ended up doing to Finn anyway but without getting hit by him. I mean, imagine Han or Lando walking up to Vader with a lightsaber and actually getting in a shot.

I thought fight with Rey was handled pretty well until the end. He wasn’t trying to kill her, because he wanted to train her or he had a crush on her, whatever the reason he was just playing around and it worked. I thought it was going swell, and then Rey momentarily used The Force to fight him off, and that was great.

But that should have been it.

Her ability to fight him off – as dictated by the rest of the story – should have been very limited. There was a deus-ex-machina ending to the fight with the ground opening up and separating the two of them. But was it to save the weaker one, Rey? No…for no reason whatsoever she proceeds to kick his ass and then the deus-ex-machina saves HIM! Preposterous.

This ending was clearly dictated by the “we have to have the good guys win at the end” mantra rather than have it be dictated by the rest of the script. It’s just bad storytelling. If you want this ending to work, you need to go back and re-write Kylo’s character and make him not as strong in the rest of the film.

Weak cosplaying Kylo getting his butt kicked by Rey at the end – that works.

Strong Kylo beating Rey and her getting saved by fate – that works.

Strong Kylo getting beat by untrained Rey – doesn’t work.

Wexter said:

Alderaan said:

Wexter said:
I personally love stuff like the freezing of the laser bolt.

I don’t have a problem with it. I thought it looked good on the screen. The problem many of us had was that Kylo suddenly doesn’t have any of these abilities in the last fight.

That kinda supports the point I made in the rest of my post. It’s one thing to show off with stopping laser bolts and whatnot, but in a one-on-one fight when you’re bleeding, running out of time before the world blows up and have just murdered your own father, you might just not be in your prime fighting condition. Therefore I don’t see this outcome of the fight as implausible at all. If Kylo was as powerful at that moment as he appeared to be in the opening scene, there really wouldn’t be much of a fight – he’d probably just grab Rey and Finn by the collar with the Force and throw them in the trunk. This character is not a badass, he is just posing as one. A dark lord of the Sith wannabe.

In the very same fight, he threw Rey against a tree with the force and knocked her out. Then when she revived, he was easily beating her for most of the fight.

Then suddenly, for no reason other than the writer wanted Rey to win, she suddenly beats him. Kylo forgets all these other powers he has. He forgets that he could freeze her in place just as he had done to her earlier in the film. He forgets he could lift her into the air and fling her into a tree, just as he had done in the same scene even! He just loses because, welp, we want him to lose.

That’s as lazy and amateur as it gets.

hydrospanner said:

Would you have been happier if he just snapped Finn’s neck with the force and then proceeded to decapitate Rey with one swift swing of the blade? Powerful villian wins. Roll credits.

There is not a single thing that would have made him happier.

Alderaan said:

Wexter said:

Alderaan said:

Wexter said:
I personally love stuff like the freezing of the laser bolt.

I don’t have a problem with it. I thought it looked good on the screen. The problem many of us had was that Kylo suddenly doesn’t have any of these abilities in the last fight.

That kinda supports the point I made in the rest of my post. It’s one thing to show off with stopping laser bolts and whatnot, but in a one-on-one fight when you’re bleeding, running out of time before the world blows up and have just murdered your own father, you might just not be in your prime fighting condition. Therefore I don’t see this outcome of the fight as implausible at all. If Kylo was as powerful at that moment as he appeared to be in the opening scene, there really wouldn’t be much of a fight – he’d probably just grab Rey and Finn by the collar with the Force and throw them in the trunk. This character is not a badass, he is just posing as one. A dark lord of the Sith wannabe.

In the very same fight, he threw Rey against a tree with the force and knocked her out. Then when she revived, he was easily beating her for most of the fight.

Then suddenly, for no reason other than the writer wanted Rey to win, she suddenly beats him. Kylo forgets all these other powers he has. He forgets that he could freeze her in place just as he had done to her earlier in the film. He forgets he could lift her into the air and fling her into a tree, just as he had done in the same scene even! He just loses because, welp, we want him to lose.

That’s as lazy and amateur as it gets.

No, that is the unlikely happy ending for the main character. It happens in movies (the original Star Wars for example). Star Wars is and always has been best enjoyed if you suspend your disbelief as much as possible. Implausibilities and strokes of luck have always been a huge part of this franchise. To me, it makes no sense to criticize a Star Wars film for having implausible plot. It only makes sense to criticize the film it is not enjoyable. That is why the prequels fail, IMO – not because the story is silly, but because they are boring.

Lord Haseo said:

But good Lord does have have the temperament for one especially now that he’s fully given himself to the darkside.

His progression is what I’m looking the most forward too in the sequels.

+1!

TV’s Frink said:
There is not a single thing that would have made him happier.

That’s not true. That would imply the film was terrible and irredeemable and I just wanted it to end.

There was enough to like in TFA that it could have been so much better. It’s too bad the story was this lazy and apparently had no vision.