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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 30

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hydrospanner said:
Who said he had completed his training while he was stationed there? And where was it established that he is the First Order equivalent of the Green Beret?

I’m not sure why I’m going to attempt to apply logic to this screwball story line, but let’s try anyway.

So by your thinking, Finn was a baby, learned his ABCs from his First Order teachers, grew into a teen, and then studied the textbook, “The Art of Stormtrooping, First Order Style,” and then graduated stormtrooper high school and then put a droid out of a job on Starkiller Central buy becoming the garbage man. Then, he evidently took out the garbage so well, Captain Fantasma noticed him and selected him for her elite of the elite elite squad.

Uh huh.

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hydrospanner said:
And where was it established that he is the First Order equivalent of the Green Beret?

Kylo was on the most important mission the FO could have possibly had. Did he take elite stormtroopers with him or some newbs that might happen to defect? Seems like another poorly thought out part of the story.

SilverWook said:
Snoke may have twisted the facts and made Vader into a noble martyr.

That’s great. Looks like we get another set of films where the main characters are idiots and always getting tricked by the bad guy.

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SilverWook said:

Unless it’s officially said Han was told who Vader really was, that’s in doubt as well.

Doesn’t he say something like “There’s too much of Vader in him” when Leia tells him to bring Kylo/Ben home?

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Smoking Lizard said:

hydrospanner said:

I don’t see why some don’t find the idea of Finn working sanitation while stationed at the base to be so unbelievable. Aren’t new recruits in real world militaries often tasked with menial jobs before they can rise through the ranks?

Do the Green Berets complete their Green Beret training and then get assigned to the Pentagon to take out the garbage?

Answer: No.

Also…sanitation in Star Wars…that’s what droids are for.

We’ve never seen the equivalent of Green Berets in the Empire. But all basic grunts in the military do tedious nasty jobs at some point. Just about every movie ever made about soldiers in training includes such scenes, be it Stripes or Full Metal Jacket.

I don’t think sanitation droids have ever been seen on screen in Star Wars or mentioned?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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joefavs said:

SilverWook said:

Unless it’s officially said Han was told who Vader really was, that’s in doubt as well.

Doesn’t he say something like “There’s too much of Vader in him” when Leia tells him to bring Kylo/Ben home?

I must have missed that. Way too much to absorb in just one viewing!

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Smoking Lizard said:

hydrospanner said:
Who said he had completed his training while he was stationed there? And where was it established that he is the First Order equivalent of the Green Beret?

I’m not sure why I’m going to attempt to apply logic to this screwball story line, but let’s try anyway.

So by your thinking, Finn was a baby, learned his ABCs from his First Order teachers, grew into a teen, and then studied the textbook, “The Art of Stormtrooping, First Order Style,” and then graduated stormtrooper high school and then put a droid out of a job on Starkiller Central buy becoming the garbage man. Then, he evidently took out the garbage so well, Captain Fantasma noticed him and selected him for her elite of the elite elite squad.

Uh huh.

No, that is actually not what I was thinking at all.

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The scene where Finn’s defection is discussed implies he was inducted as a child. The photo in his file shows a young child in any case.

Aside from the spy droid, how many droids do we see working for the First Order?

And sanitation might have been simply working a console controlling the garbage compactors.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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My father learned to cook in the catering corp’s of the RAF. He also learned how to jump out of planes and potentially kill people. It was a gag line bit it didn’t break the film. It might have worked better if Finn was pulled out of his sanitation duties by phasma because he hadn’t seen active duty yet. He hadn’t killed yet. Which would be psychologically vital for an army of brain washed zombies. Maybe Finn is still brainwashed and was programmed to infiltrate the Resistance by showing empathy and is now a sleeper agent of some kind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Alderaan said:

hydrospanner said:
And where was it established that he is the First Order equivalent of the Green Beret?

Kylo was on the most important mission the FO could have possibly had. Did he take elite stormtroopers with him or some newbs that might happen to defect? Seems like another poorly thought out part of the story.

Let’s put it this way: do you think Vader had “elite” troopers with him in ANH, when he is boarding the Tantive iv? They sure don’t look like it… And that could be considered as an equally important mission.

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TV’s Frink said:

Count Dooku was a terrible villan. That comic has zero credibility.

He just said Dooku was “aristocratic”, c’mon 😄

Bingowings said:

Maybe Finn is still brainwashed and was programmed to infiltrate the Resistance by showing empathy and is now a sleeper agent of some kind.

In a way, so far he has caused more damage to the First Order than anything 😄

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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Jay, I think you’re being unfair to TPM - I thought it was the best of the prequels. The CGI in the movie was better done as well when compared to TFA. For example, there are two prominent CGI characters in TPM - Jar Jar Binks and Watto. Jar Jar is a bit of a silly character only there to provide humour for the film, but Watto is more serious as a slave owner. In my opinion, Watto looks more photo-realistic than the CGI characters in TPM which as you say belong in a Harry Potter movie. When using CGI it’s best practise not to zoom it to fill the frame, but with Snoke JJ just puts it right in the frame to pull us out of the suspension of disbelief. Even movies that used practical effects used tactics to build the audience up for a reveal of an extreme special effect. For example, in Robocop Verhoven didn’t show the full suited Peter Weller at first - first they show his vision, then they show him from a distance but obscured. So that the audience would accept what they saw.

I showed Robocop to a friend of mine a few years ago, and he kept remarking about how he couldn’t believe that it’s a man in a suit. To quote him it didn’t look like it was possible to fit a man inside the Robosuit. And that’s a credit not just to the special effects team, the director, and the editor - but also to the actor who was able to create believable mechanical movement in nothing more than a rubber and fibreglass suit. One of the parts of TFA I liked was that jerky mechanical movement of the Millennium Falcon’s weapon chairs. That looked really good, it looked authentic. But as for Snoke he looked like he belonged in the Special Edition, or in Harry Potter.

__Valeyard.net __Vimeo

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mes1983 said:
Let’s put it this way: do you think Vader had “elite” troopers with him in ANH, when he is boarding the Tantive iv? They sure don’t look like it… And that could be considered as an equally important mission.

They all did as they were told and they all did what was expected of them. There wasn’t a stormtrooper on board who suddenly thought “naaaaah…I didn’t sign up for this!” and then helped Leia and the Droids escape.

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RU.08 said:

Jay, I think you’re being unfair to TPM - I thought it was the best of the prequels. The CGI in the movie was better done as well when compared to TFA. For example, there are two prominent CGI characters in TPM - Jar Jar Binks and Watto. Jar Jar is a bit of a silly character only there to provide humour for the film, but Watto is more serious as a slave owner. In my opinion, Watto looks more photo-realistic than the CGI characters in TPM which as you say belong in a Harry Potter movie. When using CGI it’s best practise not to zoom it to fill the frame, but with Snoke JJ just puts it right in the frame to pull us out of the suspension of disbelief. Even movies that used practical effects used tactics to build the audience up for a reveal of an extreme special effect. For example, in Robocop Verhoven didn’t show the full suited Peter Weller at first - first they show his vision, then they show him from a distance but obscured. So that the audience would accept what they saw.

I showed Robocop to a friend of mine a few years ago, and he kept remarking about how he couldn’t believe that it’s a man in a suit. To quote him it didn’t look like it was possible to fit a man inside the Robosuit. And that’s a credit not just to the special effects team, the director, and the editor - but also to the actor who was able to create believable mechanical movement in nothing more than a rubber and fibreglass suit. One of the parts of TFA I liked was that jerky mechanical movement of the Millennium Falcon’s weapon chairs. That looked really good, it looked authentic. But as for Snoke he looked like he belonged in the Special Edition, or in Harry Potter.

Great post RU! I also liked the jerky gunner seat in TFA. Little details like that are so important in a film; it’s too bad there weren’t nearly enough of them.

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RU.08 said:

When using CGI it’s best practise not to zoom it to fill the frame, but with Snoke JJ just puts it right in the frame to pull us out of the suspension of disbelief. Even movies that used practical effects used tactics to build the audience up for a reveal of an extreme special effect. For example, in Robocop Verhoven didn’t show the full suited Peter Weller at first - first they show his vision, then they show him from a distance but obscured. So that the audience would accept what they saw.

I love how you guys all think you know how to direct a movie.

Has anybody here ever actually directed a movie? Let’s see it.

RU.08 said:

I showed Robocop to a friend of mine a few years ago, and he kept remarking about how he couldn’t believe that it’s a man in a suit. To quote him it didn’t look like it was possible to fit a man inside the Robosuit. And that’s a credit not just to the special effects team, the director, and the editor - but also to the actor who was able to create believable mechanical movement in nothing more than a rubber and fibreglass suit.

Oh boy, they should have put that on the poster!

“it didn’t look like it was possible to fit a man inside the Robosuit.” - RU.08’s Friend

Maybe your friend should direct Episode VIII. Or at least be on set to keep the director, special effects team and editor in line. He sounds like he really has a handle on this whole filmmaking thing. Disney are missing a trick.

War does not make one great.

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Alderaan said:

mes1983 said:
Let’s put it this way: do you think Vader had “elite” troopers with him in ANH, when he is boarding the Tantive iv? They sure don’t look like it… And that could be considered as an equally important mission.

They all did as they were told and they all did what was expected of them. There wasn’t a stormtrooper on board who suddenly thought “naaaaah…I didn’t sign up for this!” and then helped Leia and the Droids escape.

What about that idiot who decided not to fire on the escape pod because it didn’t contain life signs? Were they trying to save ammo or something? In a world where artificially intelligent droids are commonplace… fire on the damn escape pod!

War does not make one great.

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Alderaan said:

mes1983 said:
Let’s put it this way: do you think Vader had “elite” troopers with him in ANH, when he is boarding the Tantive iv? They sure don’t look like it… And that could be considered as an equally important mission.

They all did as they were told and they all did what was expected of them. There wasn’t a stormtrooper on board who suddenly thought “naaaaah…I didn’t sign up for this!” and then helped Leia and the Droids escape.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Journey-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens/dp/1484724984

I know it’s EU and not a movie, but this book is all about a highly trained, top of his class Imperial pilot who deserts after the destruction of Alderaan by the Death Star. I’m halfway through and it’s very good.

War does not make one great.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:

Alderaan said:

mes1983 said:
Let’s put it this way: do you think Vader had “elite” troopers with him in ANH, when he is boarding the Tantive iv? They sure don’t look like it… And that could be considered as an equally important mission.

They all did as they were told and they all did what was expected of them. There wasn’t a stormtrooper on board who suddenly thought “naaaaah…I didn’t sign up for this!” and then helped Leia and the Droids escape.

What about that idiot who decided not to fire on the escape pod because it didn’t contain life signs? Were they trying to save ammo or something? In a world where artificially intelligent droids are commonplace… fire on the damn escape pod!

Droids aren’t allowed in escape pods. Even Threepio says so. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I’ve always seen troopers as canon fodder and that’s how I saw them portrayed. Massive in numbers but small in talent. It seams only the flight crew, fighter pilots and command crew have extensive training.
I’ve seen the movie twice up to now and still say its an excellent sequel to ROTJ.
And yes its got loads of WTF moments but so have the OT. Thats part of its charm, they are fantasy movies and should be viewed as such. You cant apply full logic to them or they would be very boring and not Star Wars. The film was well made and well executed, it really shows that the prequels were not. What a shame.

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Yoda Is Your Father said:
What about that idiot who decided not to fire on the escape pod because it didn’t contain life signs? Were they trying to save ammo or something? In a world where artificially intelligent droids are commonplace… fire on the damn escape pod!

“There goes another one”.

The presumption was that they had fired on other escape pods and it wasn’t worth the hassle anymore. How many escape pods went off? Three? Fifty? We don’t know, but if there were a ton of them and none of them had lifeforms on board, it’s not a stretch to imagine the officers would tire of worrying about them.

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SilverWook said:

Yoda Is Your Father said:

Alderaan said:

mes1983 said:
Let’s put it this way: do you think Vader had “elite” troopers with him in ANH, when he is boarding the Tantive iv? They sure don’t look like it… And that could be considered as an equally important mission.

They all did as they were told and they all did what was expected of them. There wasn’t a stormtrooper on board who suddenly thought “naaaaah…I didn’t sign up for this!” and then helped Leia and the Droids escape.

What about that idiot who decided not to fire on the escape pod because it didn’t contain life signs? Were they trying to save ammo or something? In a world where artificially intelligent droids are commonplace… fire on the damn escape pod!

Droids aren’t allowed in escape pods. Even Threepio says so. 😉

And yet him and R2 got in anyway… so maybe when you’re in charge of the guns, and you’ve just captured a rebel ship carrying the Death Star plans… it’s worth a squeeze of the trigger just in case 😃

War does not make one great.

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Alderaan said:

Yoda Is Your Father said:
What about that idiot who decided not to fire on the escape pod because it didn’t contain life signs? Were they trying to save ammo or something? In a world where artificially intelligent droids are commonplace… fire on the damn escape pod!

“There goes another one”.

The presumption was that they had fired on other escape pods and it wasn’t worth the hassle anymore. How many escape pods went off? Three? Fifty? We don’t know, but if there were a ton of them and none of them had lifeforms on board, it’s not a stretch to imagine the officers would tire of worrying about them.

Yeah I know, and you’re right. I don’t actually have a problem with the ‘no life signs’ escape pod bit in ANH.

But my point is Imperial stormtroopers, gunners, pilots and even officers have proven themselves to be a bit, shall we say ‘less than amazing at their jobs’ time and time again throughout the OT, so claiming that everybody in Ren’s unit would have been the ‘best of the best’ is a stretch.

Besides, when we see Finn in action later in the film he is kinda badass - he knows how to hit a target (which is more than most stormtroopers), has no problem killing enemies when they pose an actual threat (i.e. they’re not unarmed villagers) and he’s pretty brave going up against Kylo Ren (when he’s just seen Rey get force-thrown against a tree and knows he’ll probably be beaten). He has clearly been well-trained. His desertion is, in my opinion, a moral choice, and a believable one at that. The First Order’s brain-washing of children can’t overcome the natural good in them… and isn’t that in line with the whole ‘light vs dark’ theme of the whole saga?

War does not make one great.