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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 29

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hydrospanner said:
Well Darth Vader wasn’t quite as intimidating when he took his mask off either…

There are only two scenes in the OT when Vader took off his mask.

  1. The Empire Strikes Back
    The scene shows that Vader is a real person, not all machine. The framing of the scene is brilliant, because it shows a divide between man and machine. And yet there is a man under there, inside that machine, and it’s all specifically designed to complement the climax of the film, when Vader reveals that he is Luke’s father.

Even then, only a very, very slight and momentary glimpse of the back of Vader’s head is revealed.

And even after that, he still kills a man in the same scene. The audience only gets to see his humanity one second, just so they can feel the climax more at the end of the film, then he goes right back to killing people. That is brilliant filmmaking.

And then even still after that, at the superficial characterization level, the audience can see that Vader’s head is scarred and deformed. There is an element of physical pain and dark side. Not someone who looks physically unharmed and like he just walked off the set of a shampoo commercial.

  1. Return of the Jedi
    Luke takes Vader’s mask off right before he dies. But he’s no longer a villain at that point.

hydrospanner said:
I don’t see why it is such awful storytelling?

Because the hero should defeat the villain by virtue of their own abilities, not because they happened to catch the villain on a bad day or at a moment of weakness. The hero’s true strength and/or character can never be realized in that way.

hydrospanner said:
When did he say he didn’t want to be a bad guy anymore? He did say he was torn I believe. I am understanding it as the help he was seeking was for Han to let him kill him to get help rid the feeling of the call to the light he spoke of earlier.

I don’t know how I can state it more clear. It was pretty evident to me that Kylo was breaking down and having an identity crisis, just about sobbing to his father. Unless you are arguing that he was faking in order to kill Han, I think it’s objective fact that Kylo was caught in a moment of emotional weakness.

hydrospanner said:
I think this is nitpicking and you could ask the same questions of consistency of force use in the OT. Why didn’t Vader just force choke Luke from his fighter during the trench run?

Vader force choked one person in the original Star Wars, and imperial who was sitting next to him.

It’s quite a different thing in my opinion to wonder why he didn’t force choke someone he couldn’t even see on another spaceship. The ability to do that was never established (thankfully).

hydrospanner said:

hydrospanner said:
Why didn’t Vader just grab Luke with the force when he took the dive at Bespin and pull him back up just like when he just used the force to toss all those heavy metal objects at Luke a few minutes ago?

The only things that were moved with the force up to that point in the film were inanimate objects. In 30 years I have never considered why Vader didn’t suspend Luke’s fall in mid-air, for that reason. A force user throwing people through the air or stopping them in their place (as we saw in TFA) was never shown.

hydrospanner said:
Why didn’t the Emperor who sensed everything sense Vader about to turn and pick him up before he tossed him down the shaft and zap him before he was able to?

The Emperor didn’t sense everything. He didn’t sense Luke on Endor. He told Vader he didn’t sense Luke’s presence and asked Vader if his thoughts were clear on the matter. The Emperor was not infallible.

And let’s not forget, in the previous film, Yoda said the future was difficult to foresee, even for someone of his (and presumably The Emperor’s) power.

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My friend has seen the movie yesterday, I absolutely LOVE his opinion 😃 He said something like "it’s like porn, I thought the story was stupid but I liked the actors and the action "

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Script as in story or dialogue? 'Cause I thought the dialogue was great.

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Alderaan said:

I don’t know how I can state it more clear. It was pretty evident to me that Kylo was breaking down and having an identity crisis, just about sobbing to his father. Unless you are arguing that he was faking in order to kill Han, I think it’s objective fact that Kylo was caught in a moment of emotional weakness.

No, not faking it. I think it was obvious that the audience was meant to initially think that he was close to abandoning the dark side, and going back home with his daddy, but afterwards it becomes evident that what he wanted was the strength to kill Han and therefore abandon the light entirely. He is conflicted, certainly. He confides this to Vader’s mask earlier in the film, saying he feels the pull to the light. He also tells Han he is being “torn apart”, and that he wants to “be free of this pain”. And “I know what I have to do, but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it”.

Well he does do it. He overcomes the light in him. His dark ambitions win over the love he has for his family. The guy is clearly in turmoil over what he feels he has to do, and even says “thank you”. Han’s offer of help is twisted into being his blessing to kill him. No doubt internally, his self-loathing for killing his father is going to fuel his anger from now on.

It’s been said before that Kylo is the anti-Luke. Luke rejected the dark by refusing to kill his father. Kylo rejected the light by killing Han. Just as we were seeing Luke’s journey to becoming a Jedi, we’re seeing Kylo as an only partially formed villain.

TFA has many issues, but a lot of your criticisms seem to be a bit of a reach.

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I saw the film again and enjoyed it more. I think there were a number of reasons.

Firstly, I saw it in IMAX 3D rather than ‘Real’ 3D, which was a far less intrusive format. The standard 3D really detracted from the cinema experience – it was too fake and too dark. I really advise anyone who hasn’t seen it yet to view it in IMAX or 2D.

Secondly, my viewing experience no longer had the burden of expectation. I could just enjoy it as a spectacle. I think it works as a ‘big dumb Hollywood movie’ – though it’s certainly better than say ‘Jurassic World’. It isn’t on a par with the original trilogy. But it’s definitely better than the Prequels, which I loathe. (I never thought it was that bad but was disappointed.)

That said, it doesn’t mean I take back any of my criticism of the film. It does hark back to ANH too much, it is too fast paced – I didn’t change my mind about that. But it is an enjoyable ride.

The main criticisms of the friend I went with, who is more of a casual fan, were: Starkiller Base being too much like another Death Star; not enough information about the state of the galaxy; and Daisy Ridley’s acting, which she thought was wooden at the beginning but got better later. She still enjoyed it though (and also thought it far superior to the Prequels).

I think for the average moviegoer and casual fans the criticisms we’ve discussed are an issue but they’re not a major issue and seem unlikely to impact on the film’s box office success.

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Saw it again today (3rd viewing).

The peaks and valleys of the movie have kind of evened out for me. The parts I loved I think are just pretty good, not amazing. The parts I disliked don’t bother me as much. Overall, I think it’s a pretty good, but not great movie.

A couple notes about pacing. I wish more time was spent with Rey on Jakku for world building.

where the pacing really does not work for me is the destruction of Hosnian Prime, and then the attack on Maz’s castle. It all kind of happens at once. One moment Ren is on thr bridge of the star destroyer watching the Starkiller fire; two minutes later he’s attacking the castle.

Then the rebels show up. It’s just too much. I don’t think they should’ve shown up at all. Just have Han, Chewie, and Finn escape to the rebel base.

Also seems weird that Leia would show up at that battle at all.

Anyone remember different camera angles from ROTJ?

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SpilkaBilka said:

Saw it again today (3rd viewing).

The peaks and valleys of the movie have kind of evened out for me. The parts I loved I think are just pretty good, not amazing. The parts I disliked don’t bother me as much. Overall, I think it’s a pretty good, but not great movie.

A couple notes about pacing. I wish more time was spent with Rey on Jakku for world building.

where the pacing really does not work for me is the destruction of Hosnian Prime, and then the attack on Maz’s castle. It all kind of happens at once. One moment Ren is on thr bridge of the star destroyer watching the Starkiller fire; two minutes later he’s attacking the castle.

Then the rebels show up. It’s just too much. I don’t think they should’ve shown up at all. Just have Han, Chewie, and Finn escape to the rebel base.

Also seems weird that Leia would show up at that battle at all.

It’s possible the rebel spy droid mentioned Han?

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brash_stryker said:

Alderaan said:

I don’t know how I can state it more clear. It was pretty evident to me that Kylo was breaking down and having an identity crisis, just about sobbing to his father. Unless you are arguing that he was faking in order to kill Han, I think it’s objective fact that Kylo was caught in a moment of emotional weakness.

No, not faking it. I think it was obvious that the audience was meant to initially think that he was close to abandoning the dark side, and going back home with his daddy, but afterwards it becomes evident that what he wanted was the strength to kill Han and therefore abandon the light entirely. He is conflicted, certainly. He confides this to Vader’s mask earlier in the film, saying he feels the pull to the light. He also tells Han he is being “torn apart”, and that he wants to “be free of this pain”. And “I know what I have to do, but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it”.

Well he does do it. He overcomes the light in him. His dark ambitions win over the love he has for his family. The guy is clearly in turmoil over what he feels he has to do, and even says “thank you”. Han’s offer of help is twisted into being his blessing to kill him. No doubt internally, his self-loathing for killing his father is going to fuel his anger from now on.

It’s been said before that Kylo is the anti-Luke. Luke rejected the dark by refusing to kill his father. Kylo rejected the light by killing Han. Just as we were seeing Luke’s journey to becoming a Jedi, we’re seeing Kylo as an only partially formed villain.

TFA has many issues, but a lot of your criticisms seem to be a bit of a reach.

Great summary, dude. I wanted to type something similar but… Couldn’t be bothered. You nailed it though 😉

War does not make one great.

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I saw the movie today. Now I can visit these forums again without avoiding spoilers! YAAAAAAAAY…

Here’s what I thought.

It seems a little dull at first, but it got a lot better as the movie went on.
The movie had a good sense of humor.
A lot of what I feel like I have to say involves Kylo Ren AKA Ben Solo. First, he looks too unrelated to Han and Leia to be their son. Second, I know that EvilSideMakesYouUgly, but Ben didn’t necessarily looked deformed…he just looked…ugly. I’m not saying they should go the opposite extreme, but when you have an ugly black haired man who doesn’t resemble his parents, you have problems. Also, despite killing Han, I felt like he still didn’t cross the MoralEventHorizon, as it seemed like he has minute feelings of regret immediately afterwards. Another thing I want to note is Kylo Ren’s…temper tantrums whenever he doesn’t get his way. Seriously, destroying random equipment and wanting to kill people just because you got bad news? Not even Vader went that far. Maybe the scene would have worked better if he said this line. “Oh, I’m sorry. I’m usually far more composed. I’m just a little bit ABSOLUTELY LIVID!”

Another thing, why does Ben worship Darth Vader? Does he not know of his redemption? I doubt that JJ Abrams ever thought of referencing Darths & Droids, but the Vader worship reminds me of how in D&D

[spoiler] Boba Fett desires to kill Obi-Wan, completely oblivious to the fact that Vader killed him until the Sail Barge scene, where he dies shortly afterwards. [/spoiler]

Seriously, Han might not have died if the scene went like this:

[spoiler]
Han Solo: Why do you continue down this dark path?
Kylo Ren: Because I want to follow in the ways of Darth Vader.
Han Solo: You do know that before he died, Vader redeemed himself by saving Luke from the Emperor.
Kylo Ren: …you’re lying! You must be lying!
Han Solo: In your heart, you know its the truth.

At that point Kylo Ren/Ben Solo would have either had an emotional breakdown or killed himself as he realized that what he thought Vader was turned out to be a lie.
[/spoiler]

On another note, I know that the desert planet of… NotTattoine… was a harsh environment for Ray to live through, but I think being able to do the jedi mind trick and use a lightsaber competently is a bit of a stretch. Also, how did Finn fight his conditioning? How are stormtroopers conditioned? How many are conditioned? How many are volunteers? Who is this Supreme Leader guy? Why does Luke have a line in one of the trailers but says nothing in the actual movie? Why does this movie feel less original than the Prequels?!? (Let’s see: crash landing on desert planet, person of low status who happens to be force sensitive and doesn’t have parents around, a bar scene with lots of ridiculous creatures that are mostly never seen again, the Millennium Falcon considered junk at first glance, Han doing really badly in smuggling, a super weapon that can destroy planets, etc, etc, etc.) TOO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS!!!

The Force Awakens isn’t horrible, but in some ways it feels like Star Wars By Numbers. Whatever flaws the Prequels have, at least they are original.

On a lighter note, a trailer for the new Independence Day movie played, and I really wanted to scream “BUT WHAT ABOUT BOOMER!?!” at the end 😛

Nobody sang The Bunny Song in years…

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Danfun128 said:

On a lighter note, a trailer for the new Independence Day movie played, and I really wanted to scream “BUT WHAT ABOUT BOOMER!?!” at the end 😛

Boomer’s long dead, but his DNA’s served as the template for an entire army of cyborg dog (cydog) super-soldiers.

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Count Dooku was a terrible villan. That comic has zero credibility.

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This is minor, but I can’t help it. Before the briefing at the rebel base, is it ever established that Finn was stationed at the Starkiller?

It just seems to come out of nowhere at the end of the movie that in addition to being this hero, he also knows that the weakness to the thermal oscillator is in sector 45 or whatever.

Also it’s super convenient and coincidental that the first order just happens to discover the location of the rebel base right before this big battle by tracking one of their scout ships.

Anyone remember different camera angles from ROTJ?

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SpilkaBilka said:
It just seems to come out of nowhere

That was a common theme in TFA

There was no “story”. The movie was just a bunch of ideas linked together with bad writing tropes. Jay gave one example a bit earlier.

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SpilkaBilka said:

This is minor, but I can’t help it. Before the briefing at the rebel base, is it ever established that Finn was stationed at the Starkiller?

Well he was the janitor of the Starkiller base! (Not making this up). Either the janitor or the garbage man. Maybe both.

It just seems to come out of nowhere at the end of the movie that in addition to being this hero, he also knows that the weakness to the thermal oscillator is in sector 45 or whatever.

Well, as the janitor, I’m sure he had a lot of sweeping to do all over Starkiller base. So I’m sure he got to see lots of stuff and overhear many conversations.

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I don’t see why some don’t find the idea of Finn working sanitation while stationed at the base to be so unbelievable. Aren’t new recruits in real world militaries often tasked with menial jobs before they can rise through the ranks?

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hydrospanner said:

I don’t see why some don’t find the idea of Finn working sanitation while stationed at the base to be so unbelievable. Aren’t new recruits in real world militaries often tasked with menial jobs before they can rise through the ranks?

Do the Green Berets complete their Green Beret training and then get assigned to the Pentagon to take out the garbage?

Answer: No.

Also…sanitation in Star Wars…that’s what droids are for.

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Smoking Lizard said:

hydrospanner said:

I don’t see why some don’t find the idea of Finn working sanitation while stationed at the base to be so unbelievable. Aren’t new recruits in real world militaries often tasked with menial jobs before they can rise through the ranks?

Do the Green Berets complete their Green Beret training and then get assigned to the Pentagon to take out the garbage?

Answer: No.

Who said he had completed his training while he was stationed there? And where was it established that he is the First Order equivalent of the Green Beret?

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Ackbar looked like Ackbar to me, and if they got his original voice actor back as someone else mentioned, awesome. Maybe we’re finally getting used to CGI characters. 😉

As for the Vader worship thing, Snoke may have twisted the facts and made Vader into a noble martyr. (Which serves as public propaganda as well.) If Luke and Leia have been less than honest about the Sith skeleton in the family closet, that may have made things worse. It’s unlikely they have made it public.

Unless it’s officially said Han was told who Vader really was, that’s in doubt as well.

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