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The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 156

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It’s Max Von Sydow. His character has to be killed off in a genre film no matter what. I think it’s in his contract or something. 😉

Flash Gordon. Impaled on spiked nose of spaceship

Conan The Barbarian. Killed by Thulsa Doom goons. Deleted scene but still counts as a kill.

Strange Brew. Electrocuted by vengeful ghost.

Dune. Stillsuit slashed and left in desert to die.

Dreamscape. Murdered by Blair or his henchmen.

I’m sure there are other examples.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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There’s another recent example but due to the nature of your post and the example itself, it would be a spoiler, so I’m not sure I should mention it…

a trolling bantha

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I concur.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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To play devil’s advocate, he is a fanboy of his grandfather. . . .

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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Jim Smith said:

TV’s Frink said:

Yeah, Ren is a bit of a hothead. Doesn’t really think things through.

Yeah and on top of that he’s an emo dork.

Don’t you dare tag on to my post with something that makes me roll my eyes.

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My problem with Ren really is that he isn’t menacing. He’s dangerous, yes, but he lacks the underlying menace that is embodied in most of the other films’ villains up to this point. He’s not just a hothead; he’s… he’s a kid with unimaginable powers and a massive chip on his shoulder, rather than being a dark and unquestionably evil soul.

Having said that, I guess that’s part of his character? In the movie, he openly acknowledges that the Light Side is calling to him, as opposed to Vader who said things like “That name no longer has any meaning for me.” When Kylo Ren says that he killed Ben Solo, you can hear some of the uncertainty in his voice.

I don’t know, I guess his lack of menace was intentional for the character, but it makes him feel like less credible as an antagonist compared to Vader, Dooku, Grievous, or even Maul. He feels more like Snoke’s pawn than the others do of Palpatine.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Grievous was a silly cartoon, only missing a mustache to twirl. I don’t see how anyone can see him as credible or menacing.

Dooku was better but only because it was Christopher Lee. And during the parts where it was a stuntman with a lighsaber and a bad Lee photoshop head it was worse.

I’m reasonably sure Ren is supposed to feel like a Snoke pawn.

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Well, given the correlations the movie directly makes with Star Wars, I suppose the comparison of antagonists one most heavily draws from is with Vader. And while Vader was much more of an enigma in Star Wars, he was also much more threatening. Such a comparison, I think, cheapens Kylo Ren as a character. It makes me wonder how his character would come across for someone who hadn’t watched the OT before.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Ren scares me more than Mister Cyborg who needs cough syrup badly and has a lightsaber fetish. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Vader is one of if not the most iconic villains in film history. Most everyone suffers in comparison.

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TV’s Frink said:

Grievous was a silly cartoon, only missing a mustache to twirl. I don’t see how anyone can see him as credible or menacing.

Dooku was better but only because it was Christopher Lee. And during the parts where it was a stuntman with a lighsaber and a bad Lee photoshop head it was worse.

It’s true. All of it.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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TV’s Frink said:

Grievous was a silly cartoon, only missing a mustache to twirl.

There you go Frink - a possibility for your Revenge of the Ridiculousness… Grievous and his collection of twirling mustaches 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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chyron8472 said:

My problem with Ren really is that he isn’t menacing. He’s dangerous, yes, but he lacks the underlying menace that is embodied in most of the other films’ villains up to this point. He’s not just a hothead; he’s… he’s a kid with unimaginable powers and a massive chip on his shoulder, rather than being a dark and unquestionably evil soul.

Being dark and unquestionably evil is boring at this point.

i’m a girl she/her

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

I love how, concurrently, TFA was too much like Star Wars and Kylo was not enough like Vader.

TFA’s plot was very much like Star Wars. Kylo Ren’s character was very much not like Vader.

The two aren’t mutually exclusive concepts.

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

My problem with Ren really is that he isn’t menacing. He’s dangerous, yes, but he lacks the underlying menace that is embodied in most of the other films’ villains up to this point. He’s not just a hothead; he’s… he’s a kid with unimaginable powers and a massive chip on his shoulder, rather than being a dark and unquestionably evil soul.

Being dark and unquestionably evil is boring at this point.

In your opinion. Besides, my understanding of the Dark Side is that to become a master of the dark side of the Force—not just able to use it, but to control it and to bend it to your own will—becoming unquestionably evil is pretty much a requirement.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

my understanding of the Dark Side is that to become a master of the dark side of the Force—not just able to use it, but to control it and to bend it to your own will—becoming unquestionably evil is pretty much a requirement.

Does Vader fall under that?

i’m a girl she/her

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Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

my understanding of the Dark Side is that to become a master of the dark side of the Force—not just able to use it, but to control it and to bend it to your own will—becoming unquestionably evil is pretty much a requirement.

Does Vader fall under that?

Are you seriously asking if Vader is unquestionably evil?

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

My problem with Ren really is that he isn’t menacing. He’s dangerous, yes, but he lacks the underlying menace that is embodied in most of the other films’ villains up to this point. He’s not just a hothead; he’s… he’s a kid with unimaginable powers and a massive chip on his shoulder, rather than being a dark and unquestionably evil soul.

Being dark and unquestionably evil is boring at this point.

It was boring back in '77, too. TESB’s infusion of gray to the black and white was a breath of fresh air.

Too bad ROTJ squandered the potential with Darth Bipolar and Emperor Henrietta.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

my understanding of the Dark Side is that to become a master of the dark side of the Force—not just able to use it, but to control it and to bend it to your own will—becoming unquestionably evil is pretty much a requirement.

Does Vader fall under that?

Are you seriously asking if Vader is unquestionably evil?

Vader wasn’t unquestionably evil. He was pretty evil, but “there was still good in him.”

i’m a girl she/her

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Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

my understanding of the Dark Side is that to become a master of the dark side of the Force—not just able to use it, but to control it and to bend it to your own will—becoming unquestionably evil is pretty much a requirement.

Does Vader fall under that?

Are you seriously asking if Vader is unquestionably evil?

Vader wasn’t unquestionably evil. He was pretty evil, but “there was still good in him.”

Star Wars seems to divorce students of the Dark Side from their former selves, from the perspectives of both Ben Kenobi and Vader himself (and Luke, now that I remember “It’s the name of your true self, you’ve only forgotten.”) That is, Vader was unquestionably evil—evil enough to hold Captain Raymus Antilles in the air by his head until his neck snapped under his own body weight, among other things—but the good that is Anakin is still buried in there somewhere. Once Anakin was redeemed, Vader was defeated.

If what you were asking was if Vader is able to control the Force itself and to manipulate it to his own designs, such a topic moves out of the films and into books. I haven’t read Vader-centric books like Lords of the Sith, for example, but Sith-centric books I have read (like the Darth Bane trilogy and Darth Plagueis) seem to suggest that to be lukewarm with the Dark Side is to be limited in one’s force abilities or their effectiveness. This is in part why Kylo Ren was only mediocre in his saber battle against Finn and Rey, for example. According to Darth Bane’s take on the Dark Side, Kylo Ren should have fueled his use of the Dark Side by focusing on the pain in his side from the blaster wound. The physical pain should have aided him, not hindered him, were he proficient enough with the dark side of the Force.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Then why can’t all the times Kylo isn’t being unquestionably evil just be thrown under “Ben Solo?” Why couldn’t someone say; “it wasn’t Kylo feeling the call of the light side, that was Ben Solo momentarily showing through. Kylo is 100% evil.”

And besides that, we’ve had at least 4 unquestionably evil characters in the franchise, 2 in the OT alone; why would you want another? You don’t think it’s been played out? I think it has (and I’m not a fan of Snoke partly for that reason).

i’m a girl she/her

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chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

my understanding of the Dark Side is that to become a master of the dark side of the Force—not just able to use it, but to control it and to bend it to your own will—becoming unquestionably evil is pretty much a requirement.

Does Vader fall under that?

Are you seriously asking if Vader is unquestionably evil?

Vader wasn’t unquestionably evil. He was pretty evil, but “there was still good in him.”

Star Wars seems to divorce students of the Dark Side from their former selves, from the perspectives of both Ben Kenobi and Vader himself (and Luke, now that I remember “It’s the name of your true self, you’ve only forgotten.”) That is, Vader was unquestionably evil—evil enough to hold Captain Raymus Antilles in the air by his head until his neck snapped under his own body weight, among other things—but the good that is Anakin is still buried in there somewhere. Once Anakin was redeemed, Vader was defeated.

If what you were asking was if Vader is able to control the Force itself and to manipulate it to his own designs, such a topic moves out of the films and into books. I haven’t read Vader-centric books like Lords of the Sith, for example, but Sith-centric books I have read (like the Darth Bane trilogy and Darth Plagueis) seem to suggest that to be lukewarm with the Dark Side is to be limited in one’s force abilities or their effectiveness. This is in part why Kylo Ren was only mediocre in his saber battle against Finn and Rey, for example. According to Darth Bane’s take on the Dark Side, Kylo Ren should have fueled his use of the Dark Side by focusing on the pain in his side from the blaster wound. The physical pain should have aided him, not hindered him, were he proficient enough with the dark side of the Force.

This right here is why ROTJ is puerile, simplistic crap and only a harbinger of the things to come with the prequels.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM