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The Empire Strikes Back is a "junk movie"

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This will never happen, but just once--ONCE I would like to hear GL say "you know I DID plan a nine-part saga.  Years later I changed my mind."  That might make me smile...

Furthest from the bright center of the universe

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Trooperman said:

Washington Post in 1980:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/review97/empirestrikesbackmartin.htm

It actually depends on your perspective- but more importantly, on whether or not your opinion is educated or not. I love ESB, especially after watching the prequels.......

Basically, episode 5 is about Darth Vader, aka Anakin Skywalker, trying to recruit his son Luke Skywalker to become his new Sith apprentice (aka Darth X or Y, a new Darth basically), so that they could overthrow his Sith Master, Darth Sidious, the Emperor, and rule the galaxy together as father and son.... Remember how anakin killed count dooku to replace him as palpatine's new sith apprentice-darth vader?? And how the emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader so that he could have Luke become his apprentice??

The Rule of Two. Only two sith lords at a time-a master and an apprentice. Darth Vader wanted to kill the emperor so that luke could become his new sith apprentice and he could rule the empire with his family.....

So, darth vader had an elaborate scheme and plan involving capturing/kidnapping Han Solo and Princess Leia by making a deal with Lando Calirissian at Cloud City, so that Luke would go and rescue them, and he could confront Luke and tempt the young Skywalker to the Darkside of the force, to become a dark lord of the sith. 

Anakin was a young man when he became darth vader and was tempted by the darkside. Same thing with Luke, except that Luke refused. Awesome, interesting parallels. Vader wants companionship with Luke, like he did with Luke's mother, and both refuse to join him.....

Why I love Episode 5 the most is imaging a scarred, burned, pale-white skinned (like an egg), bald, middle-aged Hayden Christensen underneath darth vader's cyborg samurai robot suit........

Basically, with everything that I said above, who can hate ESB?? Its an awesome kickass film!!!

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thedaner said:

This will never happen, but just once--ONCE I would like to hear GL say "you know I DID plan a nine-part saga.  Years later I changed my mind."  That might make me smile...
Hasn't he? It wasn't those exact words but it was something to the effect of "the original version [whatever the hell that's supposed to mean anymore] encompassed nine episodes but I was able to deal with a lot of those plot threads, the Emperor and so forth, in Episode VI". I think even Kurtz was on the record saying something similar. I got the impression that the Emperor especially was something to be saved for 7, 8 and 9.

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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Who listens to critics anyway? Certainly not the kids...

IIRC, Siskel and Ebert conceded Return of the Jedi was essentially "review proof". They knew millions were going to go see it no matter what they said positive or negative.

I'm hard pressed to name a prominent critic today aside from Mr. Ebert. The old guard is mostly gone, and it's mostly internet blogger guys and DVD website guys now.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Father Skywalker said:

Why I love Episode 5 the most is imaging a scarred, burned, pale-white skinned (like an egg), bald, middle-aged Hayden Christensen underneath darth vader's cyborg samurai robot suit........

Strike one.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Father Skywalker said:

Trooperman said:

Washington Post in 1980:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/review97/empirestrikesbackmartin.htm

So, darth vader had an elaborate scheme and plan involving capturing/kidnapping Han Solo and Princess Leia by making a deal with Lando Calirissian at Cloud City, so that Luke would go and rescue them, and he could confront Luke and tempt the young Skywalker to the Darkside of the force, to become a dark lord of the sith. 

I always read it as Vader thinking there are now only two master Force users left (now that Ben is dead) and that Luke is his only hope of getting rid of the other one.

He doesn't plan on capturing Leia, Han, Chewie and Threepio.

He assumes Luke is onboard (he associates the ship with Luke not Leia) because he can sense 'him'.

When he finds only his friends on the Falcon (a ship he is very familiar with remember) he sets about torturing the Falcon crew because he knows Luke will be able to feel their pain.

When the PT came out this became replaced by the rule of two (or rule of as many as Dooku wants in the EU).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Father Skywalker said:

Why I love Episode 5 the most is imaging a scarred, burned, pale-white skinned (like an egg), bald, middle-aged Hayden Christensen underneath darth vader's cyborg samurai robot suit........

Strike one.

Strike one?? Why?? I just like continuity stuff. When Anakin Skywalker slaughtered the Seperatist council that was hiding on Mustafar, lead the stormtroopers/clonetroopers into the Jedi Temple invasion, force-choked Padme amidala his wife, dueled Obi-Wan Kenobi in that agile fast fight amongst the lava, and was burned to crisps in the immolation scene, he was already Darth Vader, despite not looking the the cybernetic samurai with black armor and a helmet and the robot breathing and the deep james earl jones voice, and being played by the handsome long haired hayden christensen.....

The suit does not make him Darth Vader. The point is, I like to imagine Darth Vader from Episode 5 with the same face that he had in Episode 3, when he was a younger dark lord of the Sith. Its for continuity reasons/purposes, and it just seems plain awesome, hayden christensen's scarred face and voice under that iconic samurai mask in the original trilogy's most famous scenes and moments!!!!

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Father Skywalker said:

Strike one?? Why??

Hayden in ESB???  Hayden being inserted into ROTJ was hard enough to bear.  Inserting him into ESB would send us OT folks here into a rage and we'd end up killing younglings or something.  You've been warned - three strikes and we sick Frink on you!

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Father Skywalker said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Father Skywalker said:

Why I love Episode 5 the most is imaging a scarred, burned, pale-white skinned (like an egg), bald, middle-aged Hayden Christensen underneath darth vader's cyborg samurai robot suit........

Strike one.

Strike one?? Why?? I just like continuity stuff. When Anakin Skywalker slaughtered the Seperatist council that was hiding on Mustafar, lead the stormtroopers/clonetroopers into the Jedi Temple invasion, force-choked Padme amidala his wife, dueled Obi-Wan Kenobi in that agile fast fight amongst the lava, and was burned to crisps in the immolation scene, he was already Darth Vader, despite not looking the the cybernetic samurai with black armor and a helmet and the robot breathing and the deep james earl jones voice, and being played by the handsome long haired hayden christensen.....

The suit does not make him Darth Vader. The point is, I like to imagine Darth Vader from Episode 5 with the same face that he had in Episode 3, when he was a younger dark lord of the Sith. Its for continuity reasons/purposes, and it just seems plain awesome, hayden christensen's scarred face and voice under that iconic samurai mask in the original trilogy's most famous scenes and moments!!!!

As this website and the associated forum is dedicated to calling for the restoration and preservation of the original, unaltered, theatrical editions of the original trilogy; fan efforts to document and remove all of the tinkering Lucas has wrought since the films were released; discussion of Lucas' intentional suppression and intent to replace the original editions of the films with his altered versions; and how several of our members have renounced their ability to be fans of Star Wars due to the alterations of the Special Editions and the lackluster Prequel Trilogy; the general consensus in this community is that the Special Editions of the films and the following Prequel Trilogy were awful, awful films and any mention of sullying the Original Trilogy with Hayden Christensen's portrayal of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is sure to make most of the members' skin crawl.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, and I, personally, will welcome you no less than any other member; but you should not be surprised when posts referencing the Special Editions or Prequel Trilogy in a positive light are not well-received.

If you haven't already, I urge you to take a look at SaveStarWars.com to get an idea of the general mindset of the member base and our cause.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Father Skywalker said:

Why I love Episode 5 the most is imaging a scarred, burned, pale-white skinned (like an egg), bald, middle-aged Hayden Christensen underneath darth vader's cyborg samurai robot suit........

Strike one.

Strike one?? Why?? I just like continuity stuff. When Anakin Skywalker slaughtered the Seperatist council that was hiding on Mustafar, lead the stormtroopers/clonetroopers into the Jedi Temple invasion, force-choked Padme amidala his wife, dueled Obi-Wan Kenobi in that agile fast fight amongst the lava, and was burned to crisps in the immolation scene, he was already Darth Vader, despite not looking the the cybernetic samurai with black armor and a helmet and the robot breathing and the deep james earl jones voice, and being played by the handsome long haired hayden christensen.....

The suit does not make him Darth Vader. The point is, I like to imagine Darth Vader from Episode 5 with the same face that he had in Episode 3, when he was a younger dark lord of the Sith. Its for continuity reasons/purposes, and it just seems plain awesome, hayden christensen's scarred face and voice under that iconic samurai mask in the original trilogy's most famous scenes and moments!!!!

As this website and the associated forum is dedicated to calling for the restoration and preservation of the original, unaltered, theatrical editions of the original trilogy; fan efforts to document and remove all of the tinkering Lucas has wrought since the films were released; discussion of Lucas' intentional suppression and intent to replace the original editions of the films with his altered versions; and how several of our members have renounced their ability to be fans of Star Wars due to the alterations of the Special Editions and the lackluster Prequel Trilogy; the general consensus in this community is that the Special Editions of the films and the following Prequel Trilogy were awful, awful films and any mention of sullying the Original Trilogy with Hayden Christensen's portrayal of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is sure to make most of the members' skin crawl.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, and I, personally, will welcome you no less than any other member; but you should not be surprised when posts referencing the Special Editions or Prequel Trilogy in a positive light are not well-received.

If you haven't already, I urge you to take a look at SaveStarWars.com to get an idea of the general mindset of the member base and our cause.

I don't understand why people hate me, or more accuratley, nobody here hates me, but rather, my strong, extreme, opinions regarding Hayden Christensen.....People are complaining about bad dialogue, for instance, the guy that responded to what I said about hayden christensen's face in episode 5.... But why??? I enjoy listening to the opposite viewpoints and opinions, regardless of how disagreeing somebody is with me, that's is the whole point!!!!

I love expressing my opinions with people who disagree with me!!!

Just because the actor was given bad dialogue and script and horrible crappy lines, that does not have anything to do with the actor himself, but rather, the role/job that he was given... For instance, I dislike cheesy movies not because of the actors himself/herself/themselves, but because of the roles that they are given....

Anakin Skywalker had no cheesy dialogue in the original trilogy, when he was Darth Vader.... So imaging Hayden Christensen's face and voice underneath his iconic/famous samurai mask and helmet, has nothing to do with the crappy dialogue from AOTC or ROTS...

I am in favor of, the scene where Darth Vader is in his little breathing pod and talking to the imperial admirals/officers, adding Hayden christensen's face into that part.... No offense here, I aint trying to get anybody here angry or annoyed, that's is just my opinion....

Also, my theory is this; people are so used to seeing the iconic cyborg samurai black knight Darth Vader with the James earl jones voice and robotic breathing, that seeing him in a human-looking form without the robot suit, especially as a strking handsome-long haired young man, offends them because they aint used to that... 

Well, Obi Wan/Ben Kenobi said in star wars episode 4 a new hope, "a young jedi named darth vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the  empire hunt down and destroy the jedi knights"..... "He's is more machine now than man, twisted and evil"..... 

Even before episode 3 ROTS (revenge of the sith), long before that, in the novelizations, they mentioned darth vader/anakin skywalker looking like a normal looking dude.... Even with just the movies and no EU expanded universe, you can tell that he got deformed and gross and ugly and pale looking somehow... Before that, he was a normal looking guy and person....

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Oh, dear...

I was just explaining the situation and why your... enthusiasm... for aspects of the Prequels and Special Editions that are generally disliked here might not be as well-received as you might hope. The fact that your views are so very... energetic... and wildly polar opposite of the general opinion here is why it could be infinitely easy to assume you were just posting them in order to get a rise out of the community here.

Certainly, though I vehemently disagree with it, I have no problem with you having your own point of view; though I admit I do cringe when additional changes are mentioned in regards to the Original Trilogy and imagining Hayden Christensen under the mask.

Star Wars really does have a following of all kinds...

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Father Skywalker said:

I don't understand why people hate me,

Nobody here hates you.  If you take a closer look at the posts directed at you, you'll probably find that most of them are primarily meant to be funny (or informative). There are a lot of different viewpoints here.  We rib each other a lot.  Your views are on one extreme of the spectrum here, so you are likely to get ribbed more.  If you don't mind the give and take of some enthusiastic ribbing, you'll enjoy it here, and maybe even learn some things along the way.  I have.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Yes, yes. To Puggo you listen.

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Tyrphanax said:

Oh, dear...

I was just explaining the situation and why your... enthusiasm... for aspects of the Prequels and Special Editions that are generally disliked here might not be as well-received as you might hope. The fact that your views are so very... energetic... and wildly polar opposite of the general opinion here is why it could be infinitely easy to assume you were just posting them in order to get a rise out of the community here.

Certainly, though I vehemently disagree with it, I have no problem with you having your own point of view; though I admit I do cringe when additional changes are mentioned in regards to the Original Trilogy and imagining Hayden Christensen under the mask.

Star Wars really does have a following of all kinds...

Why do you cringe when you imagine the face of Hayden Christensen in the original trilogy??? His acting is totally irrelevant to his looks..... Also, did you read my very long post about that???

In my opinion, you people are all very biased against the prequels because you are very nostaglic about the good ol days of the originals trilogy; however, in my opinion, neither trilogy is all that good on its own, but when combined together, the star wars saga and series is awesome and it's is my favorite science fiction/sci-fi story of all time!!!!

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I did read your post, and I don't agree with it.

I cringe because I don't like the Prequels and his face reminds me of them, and the disappointment he was as Anakin Skywalker, and I don't want to think about the crappy Prequels when I'm watching the good Original Trilogy. Him being "pretty" doesn't enter into it; I'd rather it have been someone ugly who had played the part better (though this is largely the fault of Lucas being a bad writer/directer and relying too much on greenscreen instead of practical effects rather than Christensen's acting, which I have heard is at least passable in other films).

Regardless of that, the Anakin Skywalker I grew up seeing in Return of the Jedi was Sebastian Shaw, not Hayden Christensen.

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Tyrphanax said:

I did read your post, and I don't agree with it.

I cringe because I don't like the Prequels and his face reminds me of them, and the disappointment he was as Anakin Skywalker, and I don't want to think about the crappy Prequels when I'm watching the good Original Trilogy. Him being "pretty" doesn't enter into it; I'd rather it have been someone ugly who had played the part better (though this is largely the fault of Lucas being a bad writer/directer and relying too much on greenscreen instead of practical effects rather than Christensen's acting, which I have heard is at least passable in other films).

Regardless of that, the Anakin Skywalker I grew up seeing in Return of the Jedi was Sebastian Shaw, not Hayden Christensen.

Do you hate/dislike Hayden Christensen's portrayal as the young Darth Vader because he was very good-looking, in like a pretty kind of way, but still very handsome and tough and "badass" with long dark hair and evil eyes looking kinda way (like a warrior or a heavy metal singer(, or because of his acting???? My brother would agree with you, he is not a big fan of Hayden Christensen, but according to him, it has nothing to do with his looks or his face, that is totally irrelevant to him, he even admitted that Hayden Christensen is a handsome man, but that doesn't matter to him-his acting was terrible and basically crap, in his opinion....... 

Well, you wanted an ugly Anakin Skywalker actor???? By my brother's logic, that is totally irrelevant either way; he likes and enjoys good acting, he doesn't care if an actor/actress is good-looking or fugly ugly!!!

If I'm am that shallow as to judge male (or female too) actors by mere physical appearence and externals, I would judge Hayden Christensen on a very high level; I had this debate with other users on another, a different Star Wars forum message board website-the Jedi Council Forums......

Darth Vader was once a handsome, long-dark-haired man, and that sounds pretty kickass and awesome in my opinion......

My question is-why all of this hatred and dislike and cringe-worthy attiude towards Hayden Christensen????

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Father Skywalker said:

Why do you cringe when you imagine the face of Hayden Christensen in the original trilogy??? His acting is totally irrelevant to his looks..... Also, did you read my very long post about that???

In my opinion, you people are all very biased against the prequels because you are very nostaglic about the good ol days of the originals trilogy; however, in my opinion, neither trilogy is all that good on its own, but when combined together, the star wars saga and series is awesome and it's is my favorite science fiction/sci-fi story of all time!!!!

Ok, you are indeed entitled to that opinion.

My opinion is that the original trilogy are three all-time classic movies. The prequels are mildly entertaining weak movies.  Diluting the former in deference to the latter does nothing but make great movies less than great. I also object to changing classic movies decades later, on general artistic cultural grounds.

You could make a fan edit of ESB to achieve what you envision.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Father Skywalker said:

My question is-why all of this hatred and dislike and cringe-worthy attiude towards Hayden Christensen????

Because he did a really poor job of making Anakin Skywalker likable in the Prequels. In fact, if anything, he made him downright unlikable. His acting was so poor in those films that they completely failed to live up the the high expectations the fans had of them compared to an amazing film like The Empire Strikes Back.

Obviously, Lucas' directing and writing has a lot to do with this, but Hayden Christensen's did not step up to the plate and give his best performance regardless of what Lucas gave him to work with, and his looks have absolutely nothing to do with the way anyone I've ever met feels about his portrayal of Anakin Skywalker.

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Hayden Christensen's performance in the prequels was below subpar. It was simply dreadful.

Just his acting is enough to condemn his casting but since we're now discussing looks.

They should have cast someone that looked like a young Sebastian Shaw. Which means he should have had dark hair like Leia which would have left Padme with blonde hair.

But that error can be traced back to their casting during TPM when they were comparing child headshots to publicity photos of Hamill as Luke.

Help finish ROTJ: Revisited!

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Father Skywalker said:

Darth Vader was once a handsome, long-dark-haired man, and that sounds pretty kickass and awesome in my opinion......

The story as portrayed in the OT is:  Anakin was a great Jedi, a kind and trusted friend, who was lured by the dark side and sadly became the cold-hearted villain named Vader.

The story as realized in the PT is:  Anakin was a whiny, egotistical, immature, narcistic, moral-less untrustworthy jerk, who became a seriously badass dude in a cape and mask named Vader who can strangle people with the force.  Frankly, I might even trust Vader more than Hayden.

I personally prefer the first version.  That's why I don't care to see Hayden in ESB, ROTJ, SW, ANH, or anywhere else in the OT.  Sebastian Shaw's Anakin was a kind and trusted friend.  Hayden's Anakin was a twit.

(that's not a knock on Hayden - he is capable of good acting)

"Close the blast doors!"
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Tobar said:

Hayden Christensen's performance in the prequels was below subpar. It was simply dreadful.

Just his acting is enough to condemn his casting but since we're now discussing looks.

They should have cast someone that looked like a young Sebastian Shaw. Which means he should have had dark hair like Leia which would have left Padme with blonde hair.

But that error can be traced back to their casting during TPM when they were comparing child headshots to publicity photos of Hamill as Luke.

Are his looks relevant or totally irrelevant to your negative opinion of Hay Chris as the actor playing the young Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader??? If so, I'm am much more willing to listen to you......

A blond Natalie Portman playing Luke and Leia Skywalker's mother??? Meh, nah.. I liked the brunette padme amidala in episode 3... Hayden Christensen had dark hair, just like his daughter!!!!

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Father Skywalker said:

Darth Vader was once a handsome, long-dark-haired man, and that sounds pretty kickass and awesome in my opinion......

The story as portrayed in the OT is:  Anakin was a great Jedi, a kind and trusted friend, who was lured by the dark side and sadly became the cold-hearted villain named Vader.

The story as realized in the PT is:  Anakin was a whiny, egotistical, immature, narcistic, moral-less untrustworthy jerk, who became a seriously badass dude in a cape and mask named Vader who can strangle people with the force.  Frankly, I might even trust Vader more than Hayden.

I personally prefer the first version.  That's why I don't care to see Hayden in ESB, ROTJ, SW, ANH, or anywhere else in the OT.  Sebastian Shaw's Anakin was a kind and trusted friend.  Hayden's Anakin was a twit.

(that's not a knock on Hayden - he is capable of good acting)

Exactly; I can at least agree with you 100% on that-even though he looked exactly like young Darth Vader (pre-suit) should have looked (in Episode 3, yeah), how the hell/heck can his story be a "tragic Hero" or a "fallen hero" storyline, without the "hero" aspect???? When Hayden Christensen smiled, he looked like a kind man, he could pull that off, yet, his personality had none of those traits in episodes 2 and 3.........

Don't blame Hayden Christensen for the bad acting, blame George Lucas, he wrote the script, Hay Chris just chose to go along with that!!!!!

Imagine if Hayden Christensen was given a far better script and character storyline as a kind, compassionate, friend and young Jedi!!!!!!!!!! Ahh, the perfect and ideal dream, but too bad that never happened.......

Let me ask you one question... Would U be fine with Hay Chris if he wsa given a better dialogue script and Anakin Skywalker was given a better personality like was stated during/in the original trilogy???? I would!!!!