Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape Heh, ADM is making something of a joke, but not entirely. You see, the footage they used of Vader arriving in his shuttle is actually an unused take/angle from Return of the Jedi of Vader arriving at the Death Star at the beginning of the movie. If you look closely, you can see Moff Jerjerrod standing there waiting for him.
EDIT: Too many 3PO heads in this thread. I had to break up the monotony!
Ahh I didn’t notice that. I just have not seen the SE or DVD versions very many times. I just couldn’t and that violates one of my chief philosophies, “know your enemy.” I should have been more diligent in studying George’s changes. Hell if I can read The Qur’an, The Book of Mormon, Dianetics, Mein Kampf and The Watchtower Magazine over and over I should be able to watch the SE a few times. I guess I’ll take a look the next time I’m at my nephew’s house since I don't have the SE versions. I may allow heretical texts in my home, but I don’t allow heretical Star Wars in my home. "Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else." - Darth-Adroit
“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.” - Darth-Adroit
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle I don't know if anyone's talked about this on this site before, so apologies if I'm covering old ground - please point me to the apropriate thread if I am.
The scene in the original cut of ESB where Mr Vader has a chat with Mr Palpatine - did Lucas change the performance to one from Ian McDiarmid for the current incarnation of his "artistic" "vision"?
This is one change that I actually would have welcomed in the 1997 SE.
I probably wouldn’t have major issues if “monkey woman” was replaced by Ian, but George didn’t stop there he also altered the dialog. Here’s the dialog sequence that really bothers me:
“EMPEROR PALPATINE: We have a new enemy, the young rebel who destroyed the death star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
DARTH VADER: How is that possible?”
So is the opening crawl bull shit? You know the crawl where it says, “The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space...”
Is Vader full of shit when he says “That is the system. And I'm sure Skywalker is with them."
Vader knows all about Luke. In fact the entire premise of ESB rides on Vader’s pursuit of Luke. Many fan-boys try to justify the change by saying that Vader was misleading Palpatine and that may be true, but in the end it just raises a question where no question existed. It’s like almost every other SE or DVD change in that respect. Some of the changes are small and some are large, but as a general rule they make viewers ask questions instead of letting them just enjoy the fucking film.
"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else." - Darth-Adroit
“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.” - Darth-Adroit
What I find a bit far-fetched about that explanation is how the Emperor couldn't know? I mean, Vader has an entire fleet going after Luke. He speaks openly of it to his officers. Sure, he's probably hiding his true motives for looking for Luke, but there's no way this is news to the Emperor.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape What I find a bit far-fetched about that explanation is how the Emperor couldn't know? I mean, Vader has an entire fleet going after Luke. He speaks openly of it to his officers. Sure, he's probably hiding his true motives for looking for Luke, but there's no way this is news to the Emperor.
Someone give Gaffer Tape a cigar because he hit that one center-mass.
When I was a young hard-charging Sergeant I was responsible for everything from a simple MRE (Meat Ready to Eat) to over $193,000,000 worth of Intel gathering equipment and never once was I allowed to do something with government property unless I had authorization from my chain of command. Now I’m pretty sure an Imperial Fleet is worth more than $193 Million and I’m almost certain that The Emperor was a little less tolerant of misappropriations than the US Government. That being the case I’m certain that Palpatine had at least a little knowledge of what Vader was doing.
If they were going to change the dialog in light of the PT they should’ve done so without invalidating the purpose of ESB.
"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else." - Darth-Adroit
“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.” - Darth-Adroit
I'd prefer a bubble gum cigar if you don't mind. ^_~ Not a big fan of the smokes, you understand. But I appreciate the sentiment all the same.
Anyway, from watching the real ESB, you could infer a few things. I don't know, it's a little bit ambiguous. You could be certain that Vader was searching for Luke. I mean, you can't get any more clear than "obsessed with finding young Skywalker." It could possibly be inferred to be a revenge thing for the Death Star. Or it could also be the father/son connection. Or both. Meanwhile, Vader could (and almost assuredly does) have his own motivations for trying to recruit Luke and possibly use him to overthrow the Emperor. After much thinking, here is what I believe to be the meaning behind the conversation between Vader and the Emperor. Assuming, as I would, that the Emperor always knew about Luke since the Battle of Yavin, he was sorely pissed at him for making a fool of the Empire. It's only now, though, that he senses that Luke could be a possible threat to everything, maybe because of his training with Yoda. So the message is to let him know how big a threat this could possibly be and, depending on Vader's officially stated intent, to either hurry up and get Luke and kill him or to possibly abandon his attempt to capture him alive. But Vader bargains, reminding his master of what a great commodity a new Sith would be when Force-trained people are a rarity. And, if that didn't work, he promised to kill him. Of course, he didn't mean it. Even Shadows of the Empire states that.
But the new version utterly destroys that line of thinking. Besides the previously mentioned chain of command where Vader could definitely not get away with using the fleet to search for Luke without being found out. I mean, geez, he couldn't have been more transparent if he put up a mission objective billboard. "I'm sure Skywalker is with them." And yet we're supposed to believe that three years after the fact, they're just getting reconnaissance that "the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker"? That can't be right. All Vader had previously been able to pick up from being close to Luke was that the Force was strong with him. He hadn't been as close to him at all since then. So obviously Vader didn't simply sense that the pilot was his son (and magically divine his given name as well), but it was information that they had intercepted at one point prior to this frantic search. "What?! His name is Luke Skywalker? Force trained? Tagging along with Obi-Wan?" So to make it seem like they just now figured it out makes absolutely no sense, even if, according to George, Vader was just lying about it. I've already said that the way it exists in canon, there's no way that Vader could have simply sensed the information through the Force, and, had he done so, I'm sure there would have been a lot of questions about where this information came from, which would undoubtedly get back to the Emperor. So, similarly, had Vader managed to find this information through "normal" means... once again, he couldn't have just hidden it. And he didn't just hide it.
I'm sorry. This is getting pretty lengthy. I'm getting tired, so maybe I'm rambling. I'm done now.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
I'm sure I'm not alone among OOT fans in that I accepted the fact that there were events which took place in between the episodes. There was enough information in the episodes to understand what might have happened, though, as you have shown, Gaffer Tape. Luca$h treats his audiences like idiots now. To say he treats us like children would be an insult to children... Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape I'd prefer a bubble gum cigar if you don't mind. ^_~ Not a big fan of the smokes, you understand. But I appreciate the sentiment all the same.
One bubblegum cigar coming right up. Everything we consume is another piece of our own death anyway so I don’t have any problems if you want that death in sugar instead of tobacco based form.
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle I'm sure I'm not alone among OOT fans in that I accepted the fact that there were events which took place in between the episodes. There was enough information in the episodes to understand what might have happened, though, as you have shown, Gaffer Tape. Luca$h treats his audiences like idiots now. To say he treats us like children would be an insult to children...
BING BING BING another winner. When I was a kid we always assumed that the time between movies was real time. So ESB happened 3 years after the original and ROTJ happened 3 years after Empire. You’re right on with the idiot comment as well. Based on what I saw with my own children during the PT (ages 5-11 and 3-9 from 1999 till 2005) young children were ok with what George was doing and older kids saw it for the crap it was. For my kids the watershed time was around seven years of age. Jar Jar and fish that eat metal made sense at age five and six. By age seven my kids started scratching their heads and by age eight they were almost as upset with what was going on as my wife and I. "Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else." - Darth-Adroit
“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.” - Darth-Adroit
