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The EU, and why I hate it — Page 2

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TheBoost said:

 The X-Men.

They have a move series, multiple cartoon series, mangas, novels, actionfigures, tabletop games, and even comicbooks, and no one is having apoleptic fits trying to make those all tie in together into a seemless chronology. They don't even try to keep it consistent between properties. 

 X-Men comicbooks?  You're making that up!

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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TheBoost said:

thecolorsblend said:


Why is this even an issue?  Because LFL and some of the subsidiaries thereof insist that we fans regard these (largely inferior) offerings as being the prior/ongoing adventures of the movie characters.

The idea of canon only exists to please a certain sort of fan. Lucasfilm would make just as much money off the franchise if they discounted the idea entirely, like Star Trek does.

Look at any other fictional universe that's in the hands of multiple creators, from the Marvel Universe to Zorro. It's totally natural there will be inconsistencies, changes, retcons, and widely varying quality. We're talking about a fictional universe that spreads across hundreds of hours of film, hundreds of thousands of pages of books and comics, and even wierder supplementary materials.

In the early 80s "Superman: The Man of Steel" was a comic that reworked Superman's origin (at the time I didn't know that. I was 7). It was my favorite comic. I understand that a new Superman origin series was published in the early 2000s (Birthright), and "Man of Steel" doesn't "count" anymore. All I can do is shrug my shoulders and re-read a 25 year old comicbook that I like. 

With all these Star Wars writiers fighting for scraps from Lucas's table, the 'canon' idea that somehow gives equal weight to blurbs on a Star Wars CCG card, RPG supplements, and well-written epic novels is bound to have flaws, massive ones, but to the degree canon policies work, (which I don't persoanlyl care for), I respect it, because it's trying to please the fans (who of course, are never pleased).  It has no other purpose.

 

 I have to laugh that you cited Superman comics as I'm a bit of a junkie.

The "rules" are different for comics and like properties.  Their realities are far more elastic, likely given their longevity.

If you say "Superman" (who is going through yet another reboot right now, which is also destined to fail, but that's another topic for another day) to a group of people today, you'll get a variety of first impressions.  Christopher Reeve, George Reeves, Tom Welling, a particular comics incarnation, maybe a Superman cartoon, whatever.  Superman (and comic book properties in general) are many things.

Star Wars, however, is a movie.  Nothing else.  When you say "Star Wars", 99% of people will think of something tied directly back to the films.  The "reality" of Star Wars is much narrower.  It exists in a different kind of medium with different rules.  Comics adaptations (X-Men movies, The Dark Knight, et al) do not have to jibe (in terms of continuity) with the comics.  The rules are different for TV/movie-based properties however.

And again, while certain EU novels do have that classic SW feel, the majority are warmed over ROTJ ripoffs with different characters substituting for Vader and the Emperor.

There's also style to consider.  Novels typically dig deep into their characters.  Bashing aside, that's not something SW movies of any era have ever really done.  The EU tries to deepen thinly sketched characters with a lot of unnecessary baggage and weight.  The Han Solo trilogy by AC Crispin (as enjoyable as it is) is a good example of this.  Han's a selfish rogue who only protects his own neck.  I don't really feel like I need to know how he ended up that way.  But even if I did, I find some parts of that trilogy difficult to accept.

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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xhonzi said:

TheBoost said:

 The X-Men.

They have a move series, multiple cartoon series, mangas, novels, actionfigures, tabletop games, and even comicbooks, and no one is having apoleptic fits trying to make those all tie in together into a seemless chronology. They don't even try to keep it consistent between properties. 

 X-Men comicbooks?  You're making that up!

Aw, darn, you beat me to that.  I can't believe that X-Men has become so popular that they've even branched out into comic books!  ^_~

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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C3PX said:

xhonzi said:

In a classic sense, you are confusing "average mean" with "average mode."  Do it again, and I will put you on ignore.  Again.  And don't think I won't do it.

Ah, thank you for explaining. That makes sense now. I will do my best not to repeat this mistake, and I am very grateful to you for having removed me from your ignore list after my previous offenses.

 

Heheh, this is pretty funny Xhonzi. I was just checking who has me on their ignore list for kicks, and discovered Darth Lars put me on ignore. :D

My misunderstanding of his statment, or my dissing of the precious "canon" (if he happens to be one of those types) must have offended him. Glad you didn't ignore me too, or I would have earned a place on two user's ignore list with one post. 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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The reason i like the EU its better than Lucas prequel trilogy that most fans wish had not been made.  Just like they wish the oot trilogy was not violated twice and indiana jones violated once.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Enigmas said:

Doesn't the Thrawn Trilogy claim that Spaarti cloning cylinders were used during the clone wars as opposed to whatever method the Kaminoans used? Discrepancy! How can both be canon? Ret-con needed!

^(Rhetorical.)

 

And I enjoyed Shadows of the Empire. I thought it was a pretty good piece of literature when I first read it.

I wonder if I would think it's good literature today... and whether that matters at all.

Argument à la C3PX.

 

 

C3PX said:

Why does it matter if it is considered canon or not? If you enjoyed it, then it wasn't a waste of time.

 

Thats why they should have had Zahn write the prequel trilogy and fire george lucas off his own creation since he destroyed it himself.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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C3PX said:

C3PX said:

xhonzi said:

In a classic sense, you are confusing "average mean" with "average mode."  Do it again, and I will put you on ignore.  Again.  And don't think I won't do it.

Ah, thank you for explaining. That makes sense now. I will do my best not to repeat this mistake, and I am very grateful to you for having removed me from your ignore list after my previous offenses.

 

Heheh, this is pretty funny Xhonzi. I was just checking who has me on their ignore list for kicks, and discovered Darth Lars put me on ignore. :D

My misunderstanding of his statment, or my dissing of the precious "canon" (if he happens to be one of those types) must have offended him. Glad you didn't ignore me too, or I would have earned a place on two user's ignore list with one post. 

 Wow... I mean...  It's not like you said the "I" word or anything.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

C3PX said:

Heheh, this is pretty funny Xhonzi. I was just checking who has me on their ignore list for kicks, and discovered Darth Lars put me on ignore. :D

My misunderstanding of his statment, or my dissing of the precious "canon" (if he happens to be one of those types) must have offended him. Glad you didn't ignore me too, or I would have earned a place on two user's ignore list with one post. 

 Wow... I mean...  It's not like you said the "I" word or anything.

Didn't he? 

Irregardless, people have some weird reasons for using ignore, don't they?

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IGNORE!

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Sweet, my first ignore!  Too bad you'll miss some of my witty remarks.

Oops, I mean all of my witty remarks. ;-)

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TheBoost said:

Imagine a world where some dude from LFL liscenscing had never posted on the "Star Wars.com" mesage board any mention of 'canon.'

No "C" "G" "D" levels. Nothing.

I can't guarantee that "Star Wars" would make just as much money without a canon system, but you know what makes a crapload of money with no canon system? The X-Men.

They have a move series, multiple cartoon series, mangas, novels, actionfigures, tabletop games, and even comicbooks, and no one is having apoleptic fits trying to make those all tie in together into a seemless chronology. They don't even try to keep it consistent between properties.

Even single properties, like the X-Men comics, in the run of one editor might have continuity issues, but no one goes on Marvel.com and says "Well, X-Men #234 page 8 has been lowered from D-Canon to V-Canon."

So, since I'm not convinced that a Star Wars canon policy is in place to somehow increase sales, it must be in place to please a certain sort of fan, the sort of fan who cares about official canon. Its ironic that these sorts of fans are the very ones who get their panties in a bunch about canon.

 

 "So, since I'm not convinced that a Star Wars canon policy is in place to somehow increase sales, it must be in place to please a certain sort of fan, the sort of fan who cares about official canon."

I already demonstrated how that's not necessarily the case. There are other reasons for canon policies other than pleasing fans or making money. Such as pleasing the people in Lucasfilm who are doing it and keeping internal consistency in the fiction.

"Its ironic that these sorts of fans are the very ones who get their panties in a bunch about canon."

Even if the canon policy was there to please fans, that's no reason while all fans should love it. It would be there to please those fans who want the eu to be some sort of canon, not there to please those fans who think the eu doesn't belong in canon. There's no reason why the latter group should be happy with a canon policy designed to canonize works they feel are not canon. And then there's the people who want some eu to be canon but don't agree with the canon choices of Lucasfilm. Why should they be happy if stuff they like is defined as not counting by the people at Lucasfim? Or if Lucasfilm counts some awful bullshit as canon? Why should they be happy with that? Since when does everybody need to be accepting of everything Lucasfilm does?

As for X-Men, fans of X-Men do bother about canon and I believe Marvel does have a canon policy, even if it's not as developed as the Star Wars one. But rules that apply to Marvel properties don't necessarily apply to the Star Wars franchise, nor do the people at Lucasfilm necessarily believe they apply.

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Marvel solved this problem a long time ago by giving up and loving the multiverse.  It's all canon, baby!  It's just non all Marvel-616 canon.  You do this long enough, and you get the first half of the Exiles!  But then you do Exiles long enough and you get the last half of the Exiles... :(

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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thecolorsblend said:

TheBoost said:

The idea of canon only exists to please a certain sort of fan. Lucasfilm would make just as much money off the franchise if they discounted the idea entirely, like Star Trek does.

 I have to laugh that you cited Superman comics as I'm a bit of a junkie.

The "rules" are different for comics and like properties.  Their realities are far more elastic, likely given their longevity.

Star Wars, however, is a movie.  Nothing else.  When you say "Star Wars", 99% of people will think of something tied directly back to the films.  The "reality" of Star Wars is much narrower.  It exists in a different kind of medium with different rules.  Comics adaptations (X-Men movies, The Dark Knight, et al) do not have to jibe (in terms of continuity) with the comics.  The rules are different for TV/movie-based properties however. 

 Don't get me wrong, because I appreciate the canon policy does not mean I like the EU. The vast majority of it is poop on a stick.

I accept your point that to the vast majority of people who know "Star Wars" (including people who love it) it is the movies and nothing more. BUT... if we're talking about the EU we can acknowledge that it's a fictional universe thas been added to consistently for over 30 years.

30 years after his creation Superman had been several films with two actors, a TV series, a radio show, and endless comics, and was plainly a cultural icon. And there was no effort AT ALL towards consistency across properties.

Like Superman, I think it would be swell if Star Wars had a seperate continuity for each property.

  • Star Wars comics have their own continuity.
  • Novels have their own continuity
  • Videogames have their own continuity... if they have any at all.
  • The films have their own continuity... and all others would obviously be based on them, they way all Superman properties are basically based on the comics.

 

I think the stories would be better in general if there was less worrying about how to fit the RPG supplement character "Darth Milennial" or obscure plots from the old daily comic-strip into the overarching story. I think more comeplling stories would be told concern about 'canon' weighing less on the creators.

On the other hand, as the policy exists, flawed as I find it, I appreciate that it exists for the fans of the EU. LFL makes an effort to respect that all of their products, even crappy ones like "Battlestar: Space Medics" have fans, and try to not make one property less important than another.

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Vaderisnothayden said:

 There are other reasons for canon policies other than pleasing fans or making money. Such as pleasing the people in Lucasfilm who are doing it and keeping internal consistency in the fiction.

 

Even if the canon policy was there to please fans, that's no reason while all fans should love it.

 If you genuninly think that the canon policy exists for the benefit of the people who make the canon policy, (??)why even deign to acknowledge it.

Star Wars is an entertainment property. Every single aspect of it exists to please fans, and there's no reason that all fans should love any part of it.

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TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

 There are other reasons for canon policies other than pleasing fans or making money. Such as pleasing the people in Lucasfilm who are doing it and keeping internal consistency in the fiction.

 

Even if the canon policy was there to please fans, that's no reason while all fans should love it.

 If you genuninly think that the canon policy exists for the benefit of the people who make the canon policy, (??)why even deign to acknowledge it.

Star Wars is an entertainment property. Every single aspect of it exists to please fans, and there's no reason that all fans should love any part of it.

 "Star Wars is an entertainment property. Every single aspect of it exists to please fans,"

Just because something's an entertainment property doesn't mean every single aspect exists to please fans. Do you really think the SE exists to please fans? Or the treatment the OOT gets?

 

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Vaderisnothayden said:

TheBoost said:

 

 "Star Wars is an entertainment property. Every single aspect of it exists to please fans,"

Just because something's an entertainment property doesn't mean every single aspect exists to please fans. Do you really think the SE exists to please fans? Or the treatment the OOT gets?

 

The SE of Star Wars, a film that had already had two wide relases and had been available on video for 14 years made almost $200 million. It apparently please a few people.

As for the OOT, as much as I disagre with LFL on this one, it seems backwards to blame a franchise for what is doesn't do. They also haven't made a Sequal Trilogy or a new Lite-Brite set in years. There are probably people not pleased by either of those.

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I WANT MY LITE BRITE!!!!

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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 (Edited)

TheBoost said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

TheBoost said:

 

 "Star Wars is an entertainment property. Every single aspect of it exists to please fans,"

Just because something's an entertainment property doesn't mean every single aspect exists to please fans. Do you really think the SE exists to please fans? Or the treatment the OOT gets?

 

The SE of Star Wars, a film that had already had two wide relases and had been available on video for 14 years made almost $200 million. It apparently please a few people.

As for the OOT, as much as I disagre with LFL on this one, it seems backwards to blame a franchise for what is doesn't do. They also haven't made a Sequal Trilogy or a new Lite-Brite set in years. There are probably people not pleased by either of those.

 

"The SE of Star Wars, a film that had already had two wide relases and had been available on video for 14 years made almost $200 million. It apparently please a few people."

That it may have pleased some fans does not in any way mean that it was done to please fans. We all know Lucas did it for his own reasons. Basically to please himself. It wasn't done to please the fans.

"As for the OOT, as much as I disagre with LFL on this one, it seems backwards to blame a franchise for what is doesn't do. "

I really don't see why it woud be backward to blame a fanchise for what it doesn't do. I also don't see why that whole question is relevant. The point was not about blame. The point was that Lucas's treatment of the OOT is not something that's done to please fans. You insisted that everything an "entertainment property" does is done to please fans, a point of view that has no basis that I know of. I'm giving you obvious examples of things being done with Star Wars that have been done to satisfy George Lucas and not the fans. Which provides examples of how not everything an entertainment property or Star Wars does is done to please fans.

 

 

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What's with all the double quoting?  You're allowed to break the quote up, you know...

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TheBoost said:
I accept your point that to the vast majority of people who know "Star Wars" (including people who love it) it is the movies and nothing more. BUT... if we're talking about the EU we can acknowledge that it's a fictional universe thas been added to consistently for over 30 years.

I process even the good EU stuff as an alternate universe.

Like Superman, I think it would be swell if Star Wars had a seperate continuity for each property.

I do too but, again, that's not how movie-based franchises work.  Everything serves the movies.  Books and such are never (or rarely) treated as "adaptations".  "Extension" seems to be the watch word. 

And since we're running with Superman as an example, speaking from firsthand experience, I can tell you that fanbase is unspeakably fragmented right now because of concurrent live action adaptations (Smallville TV show vs. that abortion Bryan Singer presided over).

Be careful what you wish for.  Between saga fans vs. OOT fans, prequel lovers vs. prequel bashers, weirdos like me who dig on the prequels but also prefer the OOT over the SE/2004, etc, I'd say that SW's fanbase is just about fractured enough.

Vaderisnothayden said:
The point was that Lucas's treatment of the OOT is not something that's done to please fans. You insisted that everything an "entertainment property" does is done to please fans, a point of view that has no basis that I know of. I'm giving you obvious examples of things being done with Star Wars that have been done to satisfy George Lucas and not the fans. Which provides examples of how not everything an entertainment property or Star Wars does is done to please fans.

I think Lucas made those changes because he genuinely wanted to do them as he thought they would improve the films... and, as a side note, he also believed that the fans would love the SE.

The fanbase speaks for itself on that one.

Looks to me like Lucas just dug in his heels out of pride.  LFL knows that most fans would be interested in getting the OOT, they saw/see the bootleg market going and apparently the GOUT was a decent little earner.  It's no mystery to them.

The fact that we haven't had a deluxe (can't say "special", can I?) edition DVD of the OOT says a lot about George's stubborn price in all of this.

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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Gaffer Tape said:

xhonzi said:

TheBoost said:

 The X-Men.

They have a move series, multiple cartoon series, mangas, novels, actionfigures, tabletop games, and even comicbooks, and no one is having apoleptic fits trying to make those all tie in together into a seemless chronology. They don't even try to keep it consistent between properties. 

 X-Men comicbooks?  You're making that up!

Aw, darn, you beat me to that.  I can't believe that X-Men has become so popular that they've even branched out into comic books!  ^_~

Ths reminds me of a conversation I had semi-recently at work.  I'm known as a lot of things at work (some unmentionable) and one is: "The Comic book Guy".  (Not the same as the Simpson's Comicbook Guy.)  So a guy (we'll just call him guy to protect his identity) comes over to me and says:

GUY: I walked past the magazines the other day and I saw a new Superman comic.

ME : Oh?

GUY: Yeah, it was the stupidest thing!  On the cover, it showed Superman fighting an alien!

ME : ...

GUY: I mean, they must be so out of ideas if Superman is now fighting aliens!

ME : Brent... you do know that Superman IS an alien, right?

Guy: ...

ME : From the Planet Krypton?

Guy: Yeah... but.

ME : No.

And then I turned and walked away.  I think someone said, "Oh, Snap!" but maybe that was just in my head.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Xhonzi, I must say, I am very glad you joined the ranks of the regular posters. It was cool and all back when you'd pop in and write a post or two from time to time then disappear for a while, but now I am afraid I'd find this place a bit boring if your posting frequency were to go decrease.

Oh, and I am not just saying this in hopes of keeping myself off your ignore list, irregardless of the fact that it may seem that way.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

Oh, and I am not just saying this in hopes of keeping myself off your ignore list, irregardless of the fact that it may seem that way.

Can see this coming from a mile away....

I just say "non-word" now, at xhonzi's suggestion.  I wonder how he feels about "regardless"

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"Regardless" being a real word and all, probably doesn't bother him.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

Xhonzi, I must say, I am very glad you joined the ranks of the regular posters. It was cool and all back when you'd pop in and write a post or two from time to time then disappear for a while, but now I am afraid I'd find this place a bit boring if your posting frequency were to go decrease.

Oh, and I am not just saying this in hopes of keeping myself off your ignore list, irregardless of the fact that it may seem that way.

 What a way to ruin a compliment...

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!